breezy11
Well-known member
There are references listed at the end of the article, but I haven't gone through all of them.
John kiefer "carb backloading"
- Thread starter Rush8780
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There are references listed at the end of the article, but I haven't gone through all of them.
MaXopA
Member
interesting. the point with CBL is that you don't want to raise insulin sensitivity when you're not training, and after your workouts GLUT-4 translocation is enough to let muscle tissue soak up glucose. so that's why I'm worried about using a supp (e.g. Anabeta Elite) functioning as a GDA, which is something I really don't need at all since the CBL protocol does it on its own.
RecompMan
Well-known member
GDAs have multiple multiple functions
Look at the MOA before dismissing their use.
Just saying certain ones no bueno. Most would be fine
The Solution
Legend
Why would you take a GDA after a meal? You take then prior read the directions
Usfscuba
New member
Whacked
Well-known member
FAIL lol 
It wasn't horrible but carbs and me just don't get along well so I am not the best guy to ask. Felt bloated and sluggish the next AM. I only ate 100 carbs more than typical for me (which is 50-100/day or so)
Second disclaimer-to be fair, I only tried it a few days.
All good - it isn't for me but I'm a bit odd when to comes to macros.
It wasn't horrible but carbs and me just don't get along well so I am not the best guy to ask. Felt bloated and sluggish the next AM. I only ate 100 carbs more than typical for me (which is 50-100/day or so)
Second disclaimer-to be fair, I only tried it a few days.
All good - it isn't for me but I'm a bit odd when to comes to macros.
MaXopA
Member
FAIL lol
It wasn't horrible but carbs and me just don't get along well so I am not the best guy to ask. Felt bloated and sluggish the next AM. I only ate 100 carbs more than typical for me (which is 50-100/day or so)
Second disclaimer-to be fair, I only tried it a few days.
All good - it isn't for me but I'm a bit odd when to comes to macros.
may I ask you which carb source you chose for the backload?
Whacked
Well-known member
1) Milky Way bars LOL - Was too fun NOT to try
2) Watermelon (yeah, I know, fructose is not adviseable)
3) White potatoes (no skin) for highest glycemic load.
It made little difference. Well, to be honest, I felt BEST the AM after the milky way indulgence but that is obviously no path to "optimal health".
2) Watermelon (yeah, I know, fructose is not adviseable)
3) White potatoes (no skin) for highest glycemic load.
It made little difference. Well, to be honest, I felt BEST the AM after the milky way indulgence but that is obviously no path to "optimal health".
RecompMan
Well-known member
FAIL lol
It wasn't horrible but carbs and me just don't get along well so I am not the best guy to ask. Felt bloated and sluggish the next AM. I only ate 100 carbs more than typical for me (which is 50-100/day or so)
Second disclaimer-to be fair, I only tried it a few days.
All good - it isn't for me but I'm a bit odd when to comes to macros.
Hit me up man let's chat
RecompMan
Well-known member
White potatoes have some resistant starch. I'd opt for rice or pasta or a different source if certain ones weren't working for you
I would try
Carbs post workout with aminos from a powdered carb source (25-50g). And then not again till night
MaXopA
Member
It's a pity CBL doesn't work for you. However, I would say the second point is negligible, as 100g of watermelon have merely 3,92 grams fructose.
I guess the biggest "problem" regarding fructose with your last food choice, would be the milky bars, as their fructose content amounts to 33,4g/100g.
Whacked
Well-known member
Whacked
Well-known member
Whacked
Well-known member
Interesting. This along w EBF's post on potatoes - Wonder if I screwed it up. Lol
Ahhhh who the heck knows. I get so aggravated with new crap as it rarely works and always just got back to what does - low carbs.
Ahhhh who the heck knows. I get so aggravated with new crap as it rarely works and always just got back to what does - low carbs.
MaXopA
Member
Interesting. This along w EBF's post on potatoes - Wonder if I screwed it up. Lol
Ahhhh who the heck knows. I get so aggravated with new crap as it rarely works and always just got back to what does - low carbs.
that's right man, because there really is no perfect nutritional protocol. the best diet is the one which suits you most.
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
Something to remember is your body is great at adapting and doesn't want to have a lot of muscle and low body fat. Sometimes it's best to cycle nutrition protocols. Some people look the same way for years, yeah maybe a few lbs here and there but for the most part it's nothing earth shattering.
Lowering carbs to regain insulin sensitivity along with training volume are two, in my opinion, very over looked strategies.
As to pertain to carb back loading, I think it's a great idea to "mix in" for some to help regain some sensitivity while losing up diet restrictions a bit. In the long run it may not be the most optimal for adding size but can defiantly be used as a tool. The amount if calories needed to be eaten post workout can be a daunting task for some to keep low fat
Lowering carbs to regain insulin sensitivity along with training volume are two, in my opinion, very over looked strategies.
As to pertain to carb back loading, I think it's a great idea to "mix in" for some to help regain some sensitivity while losing up diet restrictions a bit. In the long run it may not be the most optimal for adding size but can defiantly be used as a tool. The amount if calories needed to be eaten post workout can be a daunting task for some to keep low fat
Whacked
Well-known member
The Solution
Legend
Interesting. This along w EBF's post on potatoes - Wonder if I screwed it up. Lol
Ahhhh who the heck knows. I get so aggravated with new crap as it rarely works and always just got back to what does - low carbs.
if you know low carb works for you
Why fix what aint broken?
Whacked
Well-known member
Sup Brutha
It works for me as I remain lean and can get very mean with a few tweaks. One annoying problem is I can look very flat at times.
It works for me as I remain lean and can get very mean with a few tweaks. One annoying problem is I can look very flat at times.
The Solution
Legend
Stick to refeeds to help fill you back out, and you could utilize CBL on those refeeds and stick to your low carb 6 days of the week.
Whacked
Well-known member
Cabs: I'm a huge fan of veggies and get the lions share from these and I also eat Trader Joes version of Ezekiel bread (sprouted grains).
Fats: I eat tons of fish and supplement w copious doses of coconut, raw nuts, EVOO, avocado oil, macademia nut oil and others. All healthy types.
(No fried food-I rarely eat anything processed in general)
Protein fluctuates ~150 grams a day
Fat: ditto..... 100-125-150 grams a day
Fats: I eat tons of fish and supplement w copious doses of coconut, raw nuts, EVOO, avocado oil, macademia nut oil and others. All healthy types.
(No fried food-I rarely eat anything processed in general)
Protein fluctuates ~150 grams a day
Fat: ditto..... 100-125-150 grams a day
Whacked
Well-known member
That is what I have done for years. Seems to be the only thing that semi-works
I have inadvertently applied the CBL w/o even hearing about it. Lol. My re-feeds were always at night and in one sitting.
The diff is that CBL is almost daily. It's too much for me (or I need more time to adjust)
I limited binges to one pig out meal on Sunday night and the other on Wednesday night - for sanity reasons OR one pig-fest on Sundays.
So it was a hybrid of CBL/CKD/TKD/Low Carb. Lol.
I have inadvertently applied the CBL w/o even hearing about it. Lol. My re-feeds were always at night and in one sitting.
The diff is that CBL is almost daily. It's too much for me (or I need more time to adjust)
I limited binges to one pig out meal on Sunday night and the other on Wednesday night - for sanity reasons OR one pig-fest on Sundays.
So it was a hybrid of CBL/CKD/TKD/Low Carb. Lol.
The Solution
Legend
Binges does not = CBL
CBL = calculated amount of kcals and carbs in a backloading fashion
I bet you would see some better progress (not knocking what your doing) if you tracked your intake and focused on higher carb foods and lower fat options. Just my 2 cents.
Anyone can throw in a few pizza's and candy bars and call it Carb Back loading, but you getting far too many fats and junk compared to if you calculated your intake and structured what you were going to have such as making french toast, pasta, rice, cereal's etc.
You may also respond better, combining a lot of carbs + Fat in a sitting could be disaster for a lot of people.
Whacked
Well-known member
Not for me. That's how I get peeled. Lol
Bro logic - I noticed the more mixed my binges were the better I felt and looked. Backyards? Perhaps but I'm convinced it was b/c of the lowered insulin respond (GL) due to the fats.
My binges were always low protein so the fats were needed to help mitigate the insulin response.
Bro logic - I noticed the more mixed my binges were the better I felt and looked. Backyards? Perhaps but I'm convinced it was b/c of the lowered insulin respond (GL) due to the fats.
My binges were always low protein so the fats were needed to help mitigate the insulin response.
RecompMan
Well-known member
Fats do as well increase insulin response due to effect on GIP
joh408
Well-known member
I noticed in the book he says to avoid bacon and eggs as a protein/fat meal because it causes a big insulin spike. Also the Select protein writeup says that whey alone causes an insulin spike bigger than sugar alone What would be your go to as far as protein/fat meals to minimize the resulting spike? Or is it inevitable and majoring in the minors?
toddmuelheim
Well-known member
Kiefer specifically references pizza and "junk sweets" multiple times in his book. Not agreeing/disagreeing with your hypothesis, just pointing that out.
MaXopA
Member
he never said that in regard to bacon, he actually is a big fan of pork and he recommends eating bacon as part of the ULC meals. and to counter the insulin spike which may arise from consuming lots of eggs (>5) he suggests frying them in butter.
joh408
Well-known member
Ah I must have misunderstood that point. Thanks for clarifying
The Solution
Legend
Protein spikes insulin levels alone bro.
The Solution
Legend
I understand that
but what is going to be more beneficial
Not tracking your intake or tracking your intake when it comes to a True Refeed (and Progress as far as cutting/bulking goes)
anyone can eat food, not track your intake but how well is that going to aid a cutting diet or a bulking diet when you have no indication on your intake for the given day, or week.
While his stance is eat whatever in this small window how optimal is that for progress? not so much.
A true refeed would be lower fat, and higher carb, especially when dieting because this elevated t3, leptin, and hormone levels
Associated a Binge (Something relevant to an eating disorder) and progress is not a good thing. That shows an unhealthy relationship with food.
Thats my 2 cents.
keithgeiling
Member
so what's the best answer at the end of the day. Get your macros in and hit your cals and insulin and all the other **** is smoke and mirrors?
The Solution
Legend
This
how you intake your food is personal preference
CBL
IF
Carb Cycling
nothing is magical
your caloric deficit/surplus is.
keithgeiling
Member
I have been a little looser with my choices lately if it falls in line with my cals. I have had one must and that's protein and my carbs and fat are up and down every day. Last night I killed some Kashi cereal because I still had plenty of room calorie wise!!
The Solution
Legend
Which brings me to this:
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Applying Moderation: The 10-20% Guideline
For those hoping that I’ll tell you to have fun eating whatever you want, you’re in luck. But, like everything in life, you’ll have to moderate your indulgence, and the 10-20% guideline is the best way I’ve found to do this. There currently is no compelling evidence suggesting that a diet whose calories are 80-90% from whole & minimally processed foods is not prudent enough for maximizing health, longevity, body composition, or training performance. As a matter of fact, research I just discussed points to the possibility that it’s more psychologically sound to allow a certain amount of flexibility for indulgences rather than none at all. And just to reiterate, processed does not always mean devoid of nutritional value. Whey and whey/casein blends are prime examples of nutritional powerhouses that happen to be removed from their original food matrix.
Use the 10-20% discretionary intake rule and enjoy life a bit.
The 10-20% guideline isn’t only something I’ve used successfully with clients; it’s also within the bounds of research. Aside from field observations, there are three lines of evidence that happen to concur with this guideline. I’ll start with the most liberal one and work my way down. The current Dietary Reference Intakes report by Food & Nutrition Board of the Institute of Medicine lists the upper limit of added sugars as 25% of total calories [24]. Similarly, an exhaustive literature review by Gibson and colleagues found that 20% of total calories from added sugars is roughly the maximum amount that won’t adversely dilute the diet’s concentration of essential micronutrition [25]. Keep in mind that both of these figures are in reference to refined, extrinsic sugars, not naturally occurring sugars within whole foods like fruit or milk. Finally, the USDA has attempted to teach moderation with their concept of the discretionary calorie allotment, defined as follows [26]:
“…the difference between total energy requirements and the energy consumed to meet recommended nutrient intakes.”
Basically, discretionary calories comprise the margin of leftover calories that can be used flexibly once essential nutrient needs are met. Coincidentally, the USDA’s discretionary calorie allotment averages at approximately 10-20% of total calories [27]. Take note that discretionary calories are not just confined to added sugars. Any food or beverage is fair game. The USDA’s system is still far from perfect, since it includes naturally-occurring fats in certain foods as part of the discretionary calorie allotment. This is an obvious holdover from the fat-phobic era that the USDA clings to, despite substantial evidence to the contrary [28].
It’s important to keep in mind that protein and fat intake should not be compromised for the sake of fitting discretionary foods into the diet. In other words, make sure discretionary intake doesn’t consistently displace essential micro- & macronutrient needs, and this includes minimum daily protein and fat targets, which vary individually. This may be tough to accept, but alcohol is not an essential nutrient. Its risks can swiftly trump its benefits if it’s consumed in excess, so it falls into the discretionary category.
10% Versus 20%
Another legitimate question is why I’ve listed the discretionary range as 10-20% rather than just listing it as a maximum of 20%. This is because energy balance matters. In bulking scenarios, maintaining a 20% limit could potentially pose health risks that are already elevated by the process of weight gain, which in some cases involves a certain amount of fat gain. Conversely, weight loss tends to be an inherently cardioprotective process, independent of diet composition [29]. So, the 20% limit is more appropriate for those either losing or maintaining weight. Those who are gaining weight but want to play it safe should hover towards the lower & middle of the range (10-15%). Another factor that can influence the upper safe threshold is physical activity level. I’ll quote Johnson & Murray in a recent review [30]:
“Obesity and metabolic syndrome are rare among athletes, even though dietary fructose intake is often high, underscoring the robust protective role of regular exercise.”
In the above quote, you can substitute any controversial food or nutrient in place of the word fructose, and the same principle would apply. A greater range of dietary flexibility is one of the luxuries of regular training. Sedentary individuals do not have the same level of safeguarding from the potentially adverse effects of a higher proportion of indulgence foods. And just in case it wasn’t made clear enough, 10-20% indicates the maximum, not minimum discretionary allotment. If someone strives to consume 0% of calories from any food that’s been processed or refined from its original state, then that’s perfectly fine – as long as this is the person’s genuine preference, and not a painful battle of will. I’d also like to make it clear that there is still plenty of grey area in the study of dietary effects on health. As such, the nature and extent of the miscellaneous or rule-free food allotment is a delicate judgment call. In this case, it’s wise to keep scientific research at the head of the judging panel, but don’t ignore personal experience & individual feedback.
Final Note: Linear Versus Nonlinear Distribution
A legitimate question is, what’s the best way to distribute discretionary calories? Should they be confined to a daily limit, or can it be a weekly limit? The best answer is to let personal preference decide. If we use a 2000 kcal diet as an example, a flat/linear approach would mean that 200-400 kcal per day can come from whatever you want, while meeting essential needs otherwise in the diet. Weekly, this translates to 1400-2800 kcal, depending on the factors I previously discussed. One nonlinear option would be to break the weekly allotment in half, where 2 days per week you indulge in 700-1400 kcal of whatever you want, keeping the remaining 5 days relatively Spartan. Again, there is no universally superior method of distributing the discretionary allotment. The same principle applies to the choice of foods to fulfill it. Honoring personal preference is one of the most powerful yet underrated tactics for achieving optimal health and body composition. And that’s the nitty-gritty as I see it.
keithgeiling
Member
The more I learn about nutrition, the dumber I am. Lol. I would like to pm you with a few questions if you didn't want to bang your head against the wall
The Solution
Legend
Just ask in here.
keithgeiling
Member
Ok so when I throw in a "treat" during the day would insulin be a non factor as I am not over my cal count at end of the day? Should any treat be eaten with protein to slow digestion and is a carb source a carb source. I understand micro nutrients but while I try to carb cycle, I have a hard time on heavy days to get enough carbs. But if I threw in a poptart or 2, it would be easier. All within cal count of course.
The Solution
Legend
if you calculate the "Treat" and it exceeds macros in your daily caloric total then it will exceed your caloric total
if you factor in the treat into your total kcal allotment, then it will not exceed caloric intake
Calories in vs calories out is what your asking, remove some of your other sources to fit in the "Treat" you may desire.
Any thing you eat with protein or fat (IE a carb) or any fat you eat with a Carb or protein will slow down digestion and skew the overall Gi of the substance.
If you have trouble getting enough carbs --> Honey, Fruit, Trail mix, Granola, Cereal, Pasta are very dense and easy to rack up calories. If you are not using them i suggest you do and would be superior over a poptart.
Meeting FIBER, Fat and PROTEIN minimums are a must.
keithgeiling
Member
I knew you would say fiber. Lol. I hate vegetables but make myself eat broccoli and a few others. What would be your minimum fiber and fat?
The Solution
Legend
at least 35-40g fiber
try adding butter spray, hot sauce, and seasonings
steamed broccoli, green beans, and romaine lettuce are my favorite (salads)
You get fiber from potatoes, oats etc as well
Fat at least 20% of your kcals, i dont carb cycle i just simply reduce carbs on off days (2x a week by 25g)
so i eat around 335g Carbs on workout days
310g on non workout days
fat is 55/60g (workout/non)
protein stays the same on both days.
toddmuelheim
Well-known member
Add some sugar to it. A delicious way to increase insulin release. ?
breezy11
Well-known member
Mix in some honey and/or applesauce. I like blueberries with oats as well.
The Solution
Legend
MaXopA
Member
You want to increase your oats' GLYX? Here you have some options:
1) Grind your oats. Instant oats (GI 66) have a higher glycemic index than whole oats (GI 55). The more processed the higher the index.
2) Soak your oats in 0,1% fat milk (aka porridge). Milk is highly insulinemic.
3) Don't use sugar. Add dextrose instead. Why? Because granulated sugar has a relatively low glyx (GI 70) compared to dextrose/glucose (GI 100)
toddmuelheim
Well-known member
Glycemic index is not the same as insulin index, FYI.
MaXopA
Member
of course. but the goal of backloading is to have a huge insulin spike post-workout, that's actually what he was asking for. GLYX has no actual meaning if applied to CBL, since too many variables influence it, even a glass of water added to any food. BTW there are only a few, and mainly narrow, insulin index lists available around, so information about this topic is quite restricted.
Distilled Water
Board Sponsor
The best way to raise the GI if oats is to throw them in the garbage. Oats suck lol