steve, i certainly dont want you to think that im trying to make you sound like you dont know what youre talking about. im expressing a strong opinion that when olympus labs improved their epi absorption, it made a huge difference for me. i think you kindof agree it may benefit from alittle help with absorption because you make a transdermal of it and a version with bioperine. im thrilled that so many companies are doing things to improve absorption now, instead of acting like everything is fine for everyone because something works as-is for alot of people. on the topic of fadogia, 1) there arent a whole lot of studies on it, 2) a study would be relevant to me if they were, for example, testing with people who had a history of failing to absorb commonly enjoyed supplements. that doesnt mean i think it doesnt absorb; i dont have an opinion, just a general and at times unfair sterotype that absorption could be a problem for me for anything stemming from my track history. I think i did a good job expressing here that i am 100% wide open to the possibility, if not likelyhood, that fadogiapure without any absorption enhancers is going to work better than previous fadogias ive tried so it really isnt like we're miles apart on anything
This is going to be my last reply - bc honestly I'm on the verge of stopping posting here I'm so upset over the way this thread has gone at this point.
I have researched, spoken on, and consulted on absorption enhancement for 19 years. I've been talking about it and stressing the importance of it before most of the stuff you've mentioned ever existed in the supplement industry. You asked questions about absorption and I've answered them - not with my opinion, but with facts.
You said this regarding Epicatechin:
I think you kind of agree it may benefit from a little help with absorption because you make a transdermal of it and a version with Bioperine.
^^^^ I have answered this nicely now multiple times, and it honestly is coming off like you're baiting me trying to get me to say something about the company you keep bringing up. I try to be polite to everyone and not say anything negative about other companies, so if you, or anyone brings up a company or product to me and I ignore it over and over, there's probably a reason.
Let me turn that around on you, and don't answer me, just think about it logically - I could cut the cost per bottle of what it costs me to make Epi-Plex by close to half if I went that route, so don't you think if I thought it would be as effective that I would want to make more money off Epi-Plex? But see, that's not the way I do business - instead, we state exactly how much Epicatechin there is per capsule, use Bioperine, which is the scientifically valid way to increase absorption of Epicatechin, and recently added another really cool ingredient to it (all of these things increase my cost, not lower them).
Again, don't answer me - because it is coming off as baiting bc I've ignored it now multiple times.
There are two scientifically valid ways to enhance absorption of Epicatechin. You mentioned that we use two different ways, and you're correct, we do use two different ones because there are two scientifically valid ones - adding Bioperine to an oral form or going with an effective topical carrier.
Which is why I've said now multiple times that whether to go with Epi-Plex or Epicatechin Gel is simply a matter of preference.
You stated -
I'm thrilled that so many companies are doing things to improve absorption now, instead of acting like everything is fine for everyone because something works as-is for a lot of people.
I've tried to educate people on the subject of absorption enhancement since 2004. Matter of fact, I was the first person that I ever knew of to write anything about Naringin and absorption enhancement in relation to supplements.
The two leading absorption enhancers in the world are Bioperine from Sabinsa and AstraGin from Nuliv. I already mentioned in this thread that I have great relationships with both companies and use both ingredients. As a matter of fact, we were one of the first supplement companies to use AstraGin in a non-amino acid related supplement back when we introduced Anabolic Effect that contained AstraGin. We now use AstraGin in a lot of supplements, and at one time were, and may still be the company that uses it in more supplements than any other company in terms of in the number of different products.
The thing about absorption is that there are clinically researched absorption enhancers available that are patented ingredients and have undergone numerous clinical studies. These are scientifically valid absorption enhancers.
Then there is the marketing side of things where some companies mix together a few things and claim that it improves absorption without having any real data to back that. That isn't science, its marketing.
Then there are things like cyclodextrins, liposomals, and phytosomals - BUT they are only scientifically valid if they are complexed with or encase the ingredient(s) that are intending to be delivered.
Mixing something with phosphatidylcholine doesn't make something a real encased phytosomal. Having it done professionally by a company that has the correct equipment to do so and then doing the proper stability testing to ensure that it stays that way does. I had typed out a very long detailed post about this subject, but it was part of what I deleted.
You stated -
on the topic of fadogia, 1) there arent a whole lot of studies on it, 2) a study would be relevant to me if they were, for example, testing with people who had a history of failing to absorb commonly enjoyed supplements.
^^^ the thing is there is zero reason for anyone to ever do a study on Fadogia focused on absorption enhancement when no other studies have shown any issues with absorption. That's like trying to create a problem that isn't a problem - which some companies do for marketing purposes, but there is just no research driven reason to.
There are, always have been, and always will be people that respond differently to Fadogia because herbs in general tend to work different for different people and because of what I've stated now over and over - there are simply different grades of material and different standardizations.
The issue is not absorption - the issue is individual response and raw materials.
And if, even if you wanted to go with absorption enhancement and theorize what would be best with Fadogia, it would be Bioperine because of the way that it works.
You stated -
just a general and at times unfair sterotype that absorption could be a problem for me for anything stemming from my track history.
^^^ there's nothing wrong at all with going towards brands or products that legitimately help with absorption. My point there is that people need to not be mislead by marketing based around the subject and go for legitimate clinically researched absorption enhancers.
As I said, we use AstraGin in more products than any company I'm aware of and use Bioperine in many as well. But we use them where is a scientifically valid reason to use them. See, the way this conversation is going is why some companies just throw unneeded stuff over in supplements, so that they can avoid stuff like this. I've just never been one to use an ingredient in something that I felt like it didn't need to be in.
Now, if you would like to discuss further, you're welcome to pm me.