Interesting Study on L-Arginine in Obese Humans

HIT4ME

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Was doing some random research and came across a study showing L-Arginine reduced abdominal fat in broiler chickens, which then led me to this study, which seems surprising to me:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24409974

Not sure if it's been mentioned before....Thought others may like to know...this stuff is in lots of the products we use already, but I'm not sure how many of us get 9 grams/day.
 
bdcc

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In a trial like this, confounding variables make it dangerous to draw firm conclusions.

For example, if 20 people ingest l-arginine and 20 people don't ingest l-arginine and those who do get greater weight loss then a link between l-arginine and weight loss can perhaps be drawn, depending on other factors.

From the full text;

"Behavioral Intervention
During the initial baseline clinical visit the physician (RTH or JOE) provided a brief behavioral intervention (10 min) discussing exercise and eating habits, past diet strategies and reasons why these strategies failed, developing a physical activity plan (30 min of brisk activity 5 days a week), and developing a mild hypocaloric diet strategy. Subjects were asked to record daily food intake and physical activity and received written materials discussing healthy eating options. Study assistants completed a brief (approximately 10 min) behavioral intervention at each subsequent visit covering topics such as adherence to the hypocaloric diet and physical activity plan."

Basically, subjects were instructed to reduce their food intake and start exercising more so the weight loss could have been entirely down to this.

Without a placebo control group it is impossible to tell if supplemental arginine did anything positive, neutral or negative with regards to body composition.
 
Synapsin

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In a trial like this, confounding variables make it dangerous to draw firm conclusions.

For example, if 20 people ingest l-arginine and 20 people don't ingest l-arginine and those who do get greater weight loss than a link between l-arginine and weight loss can perhaps be drawn, depending on other factors.

From the full text;

"Behavioral Intervention
During the initial baseline clinical visit the physician (RTH or JOE) provided a brief behavioral intervention (10 min) discussing exercise and eating habits, past diet strategies and reasons why these strategies failed, developing a physical activity plan (30 min of brisk activity 5 days a week), and developing a mild hypocaloric diet strategy. Subjects were asked to record daily food intake and physical activity and received written materials discussing healthy eating options. Study assistants completed a brief (approximately 10 min) behavioral intervention at each subsequent visit covering topics such as adherence to the hypocaloric diet and physical activity plan."

Basically, subjects were instructed to reduce their food intake and start exercising more so the weight loss could have been entirely down to this.

Without a placebo control group it is impossible to tell if supplemental arginine did anything positive, neutral or negative with regards to body composition.
This is why it's important to have the FT available. That is enough physical activity (with an improved diet) to make that type of weight loss likely, not the arginine IMO.
 
HIT4ME

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In a trial like this, confounding variables make it dangerous to draw firm conclusions.

For example, if 20 people ingest l-arginine and 20 people don't ingest l-arginine and those who do get greater weight loss than a link between l-arginine and weight loss can perhaps be drawn, depending on other factors.

From the full text;

"Behavioral Intervention
During the initial baseline clinical visit the physician (RTH or JOE) provided a brief behavioral intervention (10 min) discussing exercise and eating habits, past diet strategies and reasons why these strategies failed, developing a physical activity plan (30 min of brisk activity 5 days a week), and developing a mild hypocaloric diet strategy. Subjects were asked to record daily food intake and physical activity and received written materials discussing healthy eating options. Study assistants completed a brief (approximately 10 min) behavioral intervention at each subsequent visit covering topics such as adherence to the hypocaloric diet and physical activity plan."

Basically, subjects were instructed to reduce their food intake and start exercising more so the weight loss could have been entirely down to this.

Without a placebo control group it is impossible to tell if supplemental arginine did anything positive, neutral or negative with regards to body composition.
This is why it's important to have the FT available. That is enough physical activity (with an improved diet) to make that type of weight loss likely, not the arginine IMO.
Yeah, I surely have some skepticism, but it's still interesting, especially when taken as a package with other studies. I wish I had access to FT - Synapsin is 100% right, the abstract is almost always misleading.

L-Arginine and Insulin Resistance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bogdanski+P,+Suliburska+J,+Grabanska+K,+Musialik+K,+Cieslewicz+A,+Skoluda+A,+Jablecka+A.+Effect+of+3-month+L-arginine+supplementation+on+insulin+resistance+and+tumor+necrosis+factor+activity+in+patients+with+visceral+obesity.+Eur+Rev+Med+Pharmacol+Sci+2012+Jun;16(6):816-23.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Long-term+oral+L-arginine+administration+improves+peripheral+and+hepatic+insulin+sensitivity+in+type+2+diabetic+patients.+Diabetes

L-Arginine Reduces Abdominal Fat in chickens (the study which probably sparked the study above in humans):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23472611

And of course, another angle - L-Citrulline has a host of studies pointing in a similar direction:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26246323

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26019250

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25271764

Again, sorry I don't have FT....

And of course there is some skepticism warranted. Another angle on this is - most of us probably eat more than 9 grams of L-Arginine per day above and beyond what the typical person eats just from chicken and protein powders, etc. Arginine is pretty prevalent in our diet to begin with, so supplementing may not be necessary at all if you are eating enough protein.

And it seems to be more of a health-related role. i.e. - insufficient levels may contribute to some health issues, not so much that over-dosing may reverse health issues.

I just thought it was all interesting because a lot of us are using a lot of these products already and they may have some side benefits we don't expect. Agmatine, Citrulline, etc. are amazing and contradict what most people believe about supplements - if they help your performance, they must be bad for your health. In other words, everything good has a down side and nothing is free.
 
cheftepesh1

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Interesting group of reads.
 
R1balla

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Yeah, I surely have some skepticism, but it's still interesting, especially when taken as a package with other studies. I wish I had access to FT - Synapsin is 100% right, the abstract is almost always misleading.

L-Arginine and Insulin Resistance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bogdanski+P,+Suliburska+J,+Grabanska+K,+Musialik+K,+Cieslewicz+A,+Skoluda+A,+Jablecka+A.+Effect+of+3-month+L-arginine+supplementation+on+insulin+resistance+and+tumor+necrosis+factor+activity+in+patients+with+visceral+obesity.+Eur+Rev+Med+Pharmacol+Sci+2012+Jun;16(6):816-23.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Long-term+oral+L-arginine+administration+improves+peripheral+and+hepatic+insulin+sensitivity+in+type+2+diabetic+patients.+Diabetes

L-Arginine Reduces Abdominal Fat in chickens (the study which probably sparked the study above in humans):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23472611

And of course, another angle - L-Citrulline has a host of studies pointing in a similar direction:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26246323

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26019250

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25271764

Again, sorry I don't have FT....

And of course there is some skepticism warranted. Another angle on this is - most of us probably eat more than 9 grams of L-Arginine per day above and beyond what the typical person eats just from chicken and protein powders, etc. Arginine is pretty prevalent in our diet to begin with, so supplementing may not be necessary at all if you are eating enough protein.

And it seems to be more of a health-related role. i.e. - insufficient levels may contribute to some health issues, not so much that over-dosing may reverse health issues.

I just thought it was all interesting because a lot of us are using a lot of these products already and they may have some side benefits we don't expect. Agmatine, Citrulline, etc. are amazing and contradict what most people believe about supplements - if they help your performance, they must be bad for your health. In other words, everything good has a down side and nothing is free.
Nice way to put it. I've read on a few studies on agmatine, citrulline...etc and they have other benefits than just a pump.

Nice group of links here. I have some reading to do tonight :)
 
Synapsin

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Yeah, I surely have some skepticism, but it's still interesting, especially when taken as a package with other studies. I wish I had access to FT - Synapsin is 100% right, the abstract is almost always misleading.

L-Arginine and Insulin Resistance:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Bogdanski+P,+Suliburska+J,+Grabanska+K,+Musialik+K,+Cieslewicz+A,+Skoluda+A,+Jablecka+A.+Effect+of+3-month+L-arginine+supplementation+on+insulin+resistance+and+tumor+necrosis+factor+activity+in+patients+with+visceral+obesity.+Eur+Rev+Med+Pharmacol+Sci+2012+Jun;16(6):816-23.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=Long-term+oral+L-arginine+administration+improves+peripheral+and+hepatic+insulin+sensitivity+in+type+2+diabetic+patients.+Diabetes

L-Arginine Reduces Abdominal Fat in chickens (the study which probably sparked the study above in humans):

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23472611

And of course, another angle - L-Citrulline has a host of studies pointing in a similar direction:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26246323

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26019250

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25271764

Again, sorry I don't have FT....

And of course there is some skepticism warranted. Another angle on this is - most of us probably eat more than 9 grams of L-Arginine per day above and beyond what the typical person eats just from chicken and protein powders, etc. Arginine is pretty prevalent in our diet to begin with, so supplementing may not be necessary at all if you are eating enough protein.

And it seems to be more of a health-related role. i.e. - insufficient levels may contribute to some health issues, not so much that over-dosing may reverse health issues.

I just thought it was all interesting because a lot of us are using a lot of these products already and they may have some side benefits we don't expect. Agmatine, Citrulline, etc. are amazing and contradict what most people believe about supplements - if they help your performance, they must be bad for your health. In other words, everything good has a down side and nothing is free.


The abstract isn't necessarily misleading, but its always important to look at the materials and methods section of any paper before really focusing on the results IMO. As for the arginine papers, first one appears okay, but the second has the same issue as before, no real control group. You also can't draw too many conclusions from subjects with diabetes.

Citrulline is a much more effective ingredient than arginine in general, but study in rats about fatty liver disease don't tend to translate well to humans from my experience. There are many ingredients postulated for NAFLD, but they never pan out in human testing. Also, there is no shame in not having FTs since usually one requires institutional access and not everyone has that!
 
HIT4ME

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The abstract isn't necessarily misleading, but its always important to look at the materials and methods section of any paper before really focusing on the results IMO. As for the arginine papers, first one appears okay, but the second has the same issue as before, no real control group. You also can't draw too many conclusions from subjects with diabetes.

Citrulline is a much more effective ingredient than arginine in general, but study in rats about fatty liver disease don't tend to translate well to humans from my experience. There are many ingredients postulated for NAFLD, but they never pan out in human testing. Also, there is no shame in not having FTs since usually one requires institutional access and not everyone has that!
Synapsin, I tried to respond to your PM, but your box was full. Your thoughts are always well formulated and compelling, so I always appreciate any feedback you have on this science stuff. I personally have learned a ton from you and I've never felt forced to believe anything you say - just, "Here's what I think based on this evidence." I appreciate your approach and knowledge. It's a rare combination, as most people with knowledge (even myself at times) can come off as arrogant and that makes it hard for people to learn. Kudos.

Just so you know we're kind of on the same page, I wasn't saying this was "certainly going to work" - just that there is a bunch of interesting (if not solid/compelling) research on this, and it seems to point in a direction. I think it shows more the importance of proper nutrition, as we are talking about a major player in the NO cycle, which seems to open doors to a host of other health topics....
 
Synapsin

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Synapsin, I tried to respond to your PM, but your box was full. Your thoughts are always well formulated and compelling, so I always appreciate any feedback you have on this science stuff. I personally have learned a ton from you and I've never felt forced to believe anything you say - just, "Here's what I think based on this evidence." I appreciate your approach and knowledge. It's a rare combination, as most people with knowledge (even myself at times) can come off as arrogant and that makes it hard for people to learn. Kudos.

Just so you know we're kind of on the same page, I wasn't saying this was "certainly going to work" - just that there is a bunch of interesting (if not solid/compelling) research on this, and it seems to point in a direction. I think it shows more the importance of proper nutrition, as we are talking about a major player in the NO cycle, which seems to open doors to a host of other health topics....
Thank you friend; I try my best to type in a manner that makes discussion productive. I love interacting with people on the forums, and I love learning as well. Nobody likes a know it all (and I don't even know everything anyway :) ). Of course, that's not what I thought you meant at all. This is a forum after all, and its for us to discuss ideas and what we think! I think nitric oxide is an interesting idea of tackling disease and you will see some more work on this topic/ field in the next 5-10 years IMO.

Also apologies, I cleared some PM space! BTW if you ever want a FT, feel free to msg me
 

ma70

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Synapsin, I tried to respond to your PM, but your box was full. Your thoughts are always well formulated and compelling, so I always appreciate any feedback you have on this science stuff. I personally have learned a ton from you and I've never felt forced to believe anything you say - just, "Here's what I think based on this evidence." I appreciate your approach and knowledge. It's a rare combination, as most people with knowledge (even myself at times) can come off as arrogant and that makes it hard for people to learn. Kudos.

Just so you know we're kind of on the same page, I wasn't saying this was "certainly going to work" - just that there is a bunch of interesting (if not solid/compelling) research on this, and it seems to point in a direction. I think it shows more the importance of proper nutrition, as we are talking about a major player in the NO cycle, which seems to open doors to a host of other health topics....
So YOU'RE the one filling up his inbox. Damnit!

Haha. Just kidding.
 
HIT4ME

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Thank you friend; I try my best to type in a manner that makes discussion productive. I love interacting with people on the forums, and I love learning as well. Nobody likes a know it all (and I don't even know everything anyway :) ). Of course, that's not what I thought you meant at all. This is a forum after all, and its for us to discuss ideas and what we think! I think nitric oxide is an interesting idea of tackling disease and you will see some more work on this topic/ field in the next 5-10 years IMO.

Also apologies, I cleared some PM space! BTW if you ever want a FT, feel free to msg me
Be careful what you offer....I spend my nights on my Kindle responding to AM and researching pubmed abstracts....I could send constant requests, haha.

So YOU'RE the one filling up his inbox. Damnit!

Haha. Just kidding.
Lol, I will be now that I have 100 abstracts to dig into. But he already has a full inbox half the time anyway. He is popular. Haha
 

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