Injury on cycle

[Gandalfthegreg]

I have been running some M sten (first time with this) for almost 3 weeks now, and the results have really started to shine now. Up 5 lbs in weight while also just keeping calories about 350 above maintenance, new 6 rep PR’s on compound lifts this week; but unfortunately it looks like I tore my bicep yesterday while working cattle. I will probably try to get it looked at by a physical therapist friend in the next few days to confirm, but it seems like a grade 2, maybe grade 3 tear. I’m just happy I didn’t completely tear the tendon because my bicep is still in place and hasn’t traveled up my arm any. My question is, do I continue the M sten on out to the 6 week mark and try to find a way to work around this injury? Or do I pull the plug and save what I have for another time. Either way it’s pretty frustrating for me because things were really starting to go great for me with my physique and lifts.

Thanks a lot for any help!

PS- I’m not on trt, was taking 330 mg 4 andro, 750 mg epi andro, and 75 3 AD along with the 20 mg Msten. I know orals only aren’t the greatest but I’ve just started getting my toes wet a little more with anabolics. Have Tamox ready for PCT whenever.

 

[match]

Sorry to hear about your injury bro. Hope you get healed up quickly. I don't have any advice on your question, but you'll get plenty of good responses soon I'm sure.

Are you still able to work, or do you have to go on disability while you heal up?

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

I’ll find a way to work around the injury for my job because I’m a cattle rancher so I kind of have to keep taking care of my cattle. Luckily it’s my non dominant arm so it could be worse. I also have an amazing wife that will be able to help me out with the more challenging one armed tasks. I also coach powerlifting part time at a local HS so I’ll just have to do more coaching and less hands on stuff for that

 

[ZLB70]

Personally I would probably just stop and take it easy till it’s fully healed. Seems like playing with fire if you don’t

 

[match]

I'm glad to hear you have a plan and are blessed with an awesome wife who can help you with those random tasks that we all take for granted, tedious things that become a real hassle during recovery.

I hope your PT friend has good news for you regarding expected recovery times and gets you set up with a good game plan. If they say to go get checked out by a doctor, definitely listen to them!

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Personally I would probably just stop and take it easy till it’s fully healed. Seems like playing with fire if you don’t

Yes that’s my first thought as well but damn that’s hard to do when I spent so much time and effort prepping for this run. I will probably stop and start PCT but wanted some other opinions first.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Damn bro that sucks I feel for you man. I know you didn't do it lifting but that's the main reason when your on you keep the reps higher muscles grow and get stronger a lot faster than tendons do. I would work around it but that's the meathead in me I'm sure most on here will tell you to cut it and they're most likely right

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Yeah reps of 6 was the lowest I was going on my bench and squat, but I really wanted to go heavier and lift some heavy weight lol but I kept it reined in. All my accessory work is 8-12 rep range, but sometimes higher. I knew the connective tissue wouldn’t be keeping up as well, but of course I get injured doing something random lol that’s usually the way it works for me. I’ve had a few sports related injuries in the past but at 31 I’m not bouncing back quite like I did at 18

 

[wfreiling]

Me, personally I would end the cycle.

It would be too hard to not overdo it while on. I think it’s best to pct and go at it again when fully healed. No use in running something when you can’t take advantage of the extra horse power.

 

[Smont]

I would end it, or specifically train legs only, all exercises you can do fixed in a seat.

Leg ext, ham curl, adductors, abductors, calves. Maybe a resistance bike.

But I would only do that if you can keep your upper body completely out of the equation.

Also, if you tore the bicep you better get it checked ASAP. Bicep tear "if it's the distal biceps tendon" needs a immediate reattachment or repair. The longer you wait the more problems you will eventually run into. And those problems may include not being able to properly stretch or contract your bicep again

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Me, personally I would end the cycle.

It would be too hard to not overdo it while on. I think it’s best to pct and go at it again when fully healed. No use in running something when you can’t take advantage of the extra horse power.

Yeah I agree and think you’re probably right. Part of me was just hoping that someone more knowledgeable than me had a “magic cure” for me to be able to save this run and work around it lol. Thanks for the advice!

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

I would end it, or specifically train legs only, all exercises you can do fixed in a seat.

Leg ext, ham curl, adductors, abductors, calves. Maybe a resistance bike.

But I would only do that if you can keep your upper body completely out of the equation.

Also, if you tore the bicep you better get it checked ASAP. Bicep tear "if it's the distal biceps tendon" needs a immediate reattachment or repair. The longer you wait the more problems you will eventually run into. And those problems may include not being able to properly stretch or contract your bicep again

Im going to see a friend that is a PT this afternoon and get his opinion on it. Guess we’ll see if he thinks I need to get some imaging done on it, but yeah I’ve seen what happens when you tear your bicep completely loose and I don’t want any part of that.

The bicep doesn’t seem to have traveled up my arm at all so I’m hoping that’s a good sign.

I’ll let you all know what I find out, but looks like I’ll be starting PCT.

 

[Smont]

Im going to see a friend that is a PT this afternoon and get his opinion on it. Guess we’ll see if he thinks I need to get some imaging done on it, but yeah I’ve seen what happens when you tear your bicep completely loose and I don’t want any part of that.

The bicep doesn’t seem to have traveled up my arm at all so I’m hoping that’s a good sign.

I’ll let you all know what I find out, but looks like I’ll be starting PCT.

If it makes you feel any better, I've probably pulled the plug early on more cycles than I have finished. When things are not going optimally I bail.

Remember we do this for fun, none of us "or very few of us here" are making our living based on the way we look. And the gains made on a single cycle are just a drop in the bucket.

There's always a next time if you pace yourself and do things in a healthy ish fashion

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

If it makes you feel any better, I've probably pulled the plug early on more cycles than I have finished. When things are not going optimally I bail.

Remember we do this for fun, none of us "or very few of us here" are making our living based on the way we look. And the gains made on a single cycle are just a drop in the bucket.

There's always a next time if you pace yourself and do things in a healthy ish fashion

Thanks man, really appreciate your input because I’m always curious what you will have to say on these situations. I appreciate your no bullshit if sometimes very blunt answers lol.

So the PT today is setting me up with an ortho surgeon to get another look and we will be getting an MRI to determine degree of tear and location. MRI will determine if we’re doing surgery or simply rest and rehab. Either way I want to do this the right way and not have a body part this is always lagging behind.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Yeah reps of 6 was the lowest I was going on my bench and squat, but I really wanted to go heavier and lift some heavy weight lol but I kept it reined in. All my accessory work is 8-12 rep range, but sometimes higher. I knew the connective tissue wouldn’t be keeping up as well, but of course I get injured doing something random lol that’s usually the way it works for me. I’ve had a few sports related injuries in the past but at 31 I’m not bouncing back quite like I did at 18

Me too bro I just turned 41 and my shoulder and brachioradialis muscle issues are not from the gym but from my physical job these nagging things don't just go away like they used to lol

 

[Mikereyn513]

I would end it, or specifically train legs only, all exercises you can do fixed in a seat.

Leg ext, ham curl, adductors, abductors, calves. Maybe a resistance bike.

But I would only do that if you can keep your upper body completely out of the equation.

Also, if you tore the bicep you better get it checked ASAP. Bicep tear "if it's the distal biceps tendon" needs a immediate reattachment or repair. The longer you wait the more problems you will eventually run into. And those problems may include not being able to properly stretch or contract your bicep again

Damn I knew you would say that I don't know why bro but when I read your responses I read them in vigorous Steve's voice. For some reason your responses sound exactly like what Steve would say if he was responding lol

 

[BBiceps]

Idk, I might continue in hopes it would heal faster but I guess it’s depends on the injury.

I actually started a cycle once when my hand was broken and I had a cast from my knuckles to my elbow in hopes it would heal faster, if it actually was healing faster or not idk but it felt good to be ON and I ended up in even better shape than before the injury.

I would definitely be on until you know exactly how bad (or good) the injury is, it might not be as bad as you think.

 

[Smont]

Damn I knew you would say that I don't know why bro but when I read your responses I read them in vigorous Steve's voice. For some reason your responses sound exactly like what Steve would say if he was responding lol

That's weird lol, I did use to watch a lot of his stuff, he's definitely molded a portion of the way I view things. I kinda feel back on his stuff tho after all the **** between douchette, mpmd and whoever else has any affiliation with them.

I think Steve has more integrity then those guys but still, if he's involved there's shady stuff going on somewhere.

With all that said though he's still someone I'd like to sit down with and be able to pick their brain

 

[Mikereyn513]

That's weird lol, I did use to watch a lot of his stuff, he's definitely molded a portion of the way I view things. I kinda feel back on his stuff tho after all the **** between douchette, mpmd and whoever else has any affiliation with them.

I think Steve has more integrity then those guys but still, if he's involved there's shady stuff going on somewhere.

With all that said though he's still someone I'd like to sit down with and be able to pick their brain

He just posted an interview with think big bodybuilding media haven't watched it yet, I try not to think about the behind the scenes drama as gar as it is, even with that POS Leo from Leo and longevity. I think his points worth listening too even if he is personally scum of the earth

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Idk, I might continue in hopes it would heal faster but I guess it’s depends on the injury.

I actually started a cycle once when my hand was broken and I had a cast from my knuckles to my elbow in hopes it would heal faster, if it actually was healing faster or not idk but it felt good to be ON and I ended up in even better shape than before the injury.

I would definitely be on until you know exactly how bad (or good) the injury is, it might not be as bad as you think.

I had wondered if continuing the cycle would have any healing benefits, but then at the same time if I end up having surgery then it doesn’t matter to try to heal it back or not lol.

The biggest shock was when the PT had me do a double bicep pose without flexing and on my good arm I still have a nice mound of bicep without flexing really, but on the left it was completely flat across the top and looked like an old man arm or something. Didn’t like that at all lol.

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Idk, I might continue in hopes it would heal faster but I guess it’s depends on the injury.

I actually started a cycle once when my hand was broken and I had a cast from my knuckles to my elbow in hopes it would heal faster, if it actually was healing faster or not idk but it felt good to be ON and I ended up in even better shape than before the injury.

I would definitely be on until you know exactly how bad (or good) the injury is, it might not be as bad as you think.

Also if I do end up having surgery within the next couple weeks, I’m not sure I want to be taking something rough like Msten and messing with my health when I probably want to have everything pretty healthy going into surgery. At the same time I haven’t had any bad sides yet. BP under control and taking Tudca and other health ancillaries. Only side so far is oilier skin and a little acne but not bad.

It’s still been 98 almost everyday though in OK so that doesn’t help

 

[Smont]

He just posted an interview with think big bodybuilding media haven't watched it yet, I try not to think about the behind the scenes drama as gar as it is, even with that POS Leo from Leo and longevity. I think his points worth listening too even if he is personally scum of the earth

I didn't say I think he's a scumbag I just think he associates with scumbags that's what bothers me. I just started listening to the podcast you're talking about on my ride to work today but I only made it 15 minutes in

 

[Smont]

I've never noticed steroids making me heal injury faster, I've only had steroids make me get injured faster

 

[Smont]

Thanks man, really appreciate your input because I’m always curious what you will have to say on these situations. I appreciate your no bullshit if sometimes very blunt answers lol.

So the PT today is setting me up with an ortho surgeon to get another look and we will be getting an MRI to determine degree of tear and location. MRI will determine if we’re doing surgery or simply rest and rehab. Either way I want to do this the right way and not have a body part this is always lagging behind.

I try to give very blunt answers LOL, I do realize it often offends people but there's really no point in time I'm ever trying to offend everyone I just don't like having to dance around people's feelings lol. I mean everything with best intentions, I just happened to talk like an aszhole sometimes

 

[BBiceps]

I've never noticed steroids making me heal injury faster, I've only had steroids make me get injured faster

Have you ever tried to rest/heal/rehab on steroids? I can almost guarantee that a person that sitting on the couch that takes an anabolic drug would heal faster than a person without.

*take it with a grain of salt, it’s bro science at best, I have no proof.

 

[BBiceps]

Also if I do end up having surgery within the next couple weeks, I’m not sure I want to be taking something rough like Msten and messing with my health when I probably want to have everything pretty healthy going into surgery. At the same time I haven’t had any bad sides yet. BP under control and taking Tudca and other health ancillaries. Only side so far is oilier skin and a little acne but not bad.

It’s still been 98 almost everyday though in OK so that doesn’t help

Yeah if it’s a surgery injury get off. I’m just saying if it’s something mild that can heal itself with proper rehab/rest I would stay on. But in the end, listen to your Dr, none of us here can (or should) give any medical advice.

 

[Smont]

Have you ever tried to rest/heal/rehab on steroids? I can almost guarantee that a person that sitting on the couch that takes an anabolic drug would heal faster than a person without.

*take it with a grain of salt, it’s bro science at best, I have no proof.

Maybe if it's a complete muscle related issue, but I don't think it's gonna help with a tendon or ligament healing.

But I have been on cycle and taken 2 weeks off for a injury, didn't see to speed anything up for me. Then I cut the cycle, dropped to trt and added bpc and that seemed to speed up the process. But also at that point I was already 2 weeks into healing/ post injury, so who knows what's doing what.

 

[BBiceps]

Maybe if it's a complete muscle related issue, but I don't think it's gonna help with a tendon or ligament healing.

But I have been on cycle and taken 2 weeks off for a injury, didn't see to speed anything up for me. Then I cut the cycle, dropped to trt and added bpc and that seemed to speed up the process. But also at that point I was already 2 weeks into healing/ post injury, so who knows what's doing what.

I think it depends on the drug, I got PRP shots in my patella tendon in my left knee, I had a tear, and when they did it they asked if I wanted to add Test and HGH in that shot. The charge for the added drugs was high and since it’s only was 3 total shots I didn’t see the point.

M Sten is not the preferred drug for healing but a small dose of Test and Deca most likely will be beneficial for healing.

I think since everyone is so focused on gaining weight/muscles ppl forget that most steroids was meant for medical purposes.

 

[Hyde]

If it’s laying flat in that pose there is a real chance you did actually tear the tendon (speaking from experience). Don’t fret; wait for the MRI so the ortho can properly diagnose. That was a good move.

Whether it’s a muscle belly tear or a tendon, I’d pull the plug on the cycle. If you find it will require surgery, order Clomid ASAP and use that for your PCT SERM. Tamoxifen is great, I much prefer it, but it does increase your risk of blood clots meaningfully, and isn’t ideal going into surgery.

Or if you need surgery, you could stay on the cycle, drop Msten to 10mg, avoid taking it day of surgery, and then begin PCT a week or two after surgery. That would let you use Tamoxifen still safely, while getting some immediate healing benefits, but you can’t workout anything for a couple weeks post surgery to ensure you don’t rip stitches or cause a hematoma, so you’re really wasting the cycle.

Some Mk677, BPC157, and TB500 are easily superior for post-surgery recovery to an AAS blast. I would order MK & TB whether or not there is surgery needed, and BPC only if there’s tendon damage.

We really need to know the results of the MRI and whether you need a tendon-reattachment or not to consider the best options for you. If it’s just muscle belly, I would just begin the tamoxifen and get on with rehab.

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Thanks for the info Hyde! I did not know about tamox and blood clots so I will order some clomid and TB asap. I had actually already ordered some BPC when I first injured it. I also have some MK laying around that I haven’t ran yet because I had been cutting prior to this and MK makes me want to eat like a horse lol. Would you see any issue with starting PCT with tamox right now and switch to clomid when/if we get a surgery scheduled? I’m going to try to save the Msten for a future cycle now. I hate to waste something that I was loving the results from.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks for the info Hyde! I did not know about tamox and blood clots so I will order some clomid and TB asap. I had actually already ordered some BPC when I first injured it. I also have some MK laying around that I haven’t ran yet because I had been cutting prior to this and MK makes me want to eat like a horse lol. Would you see any issue with starting PCT with tamox right now and switch to clomid when/if we get a surgery scheduled? I’m going to try to save the Msten for a future cycle now. I hate to waste something that I was loving the results from.

I would really wait for the MRI results; I would not want to begin the tamoxifen without knowing if I was about to get surgery. When my bicep was torn off on a Saturday morning, I had surgery Thursday afternoon. If you are going to need surgery you will be pursuing it ASAP. I would feel better about just stopping everything right now, no SERM or anything for a few days, than start tamoxifen just to have surgery in 3 days.

Do you know when they expect to have the MRI results? Have you had the scan yet?

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

No MRI scan yet, I see the orthopedic surgeon on Monday and his office advised me to wait on the MRI until he sees me first. Then told me that he’ll want an MRI stat if he decides I need one of course. This all helps when I live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive 2 1/2 hours to the ortho.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Have you ever tried to rest/heal/rehab on steroids? I can almost guarantee that a person that sitting on the couch that takes an anabolic drug would heal faster than a person without.

*take it with a grain of salt, it’s bro science at best, I have no proof.

Sometimes bro science is facts tho and I think in this case it is lol

 

[Hyde]

No MRI scan yet, I see the orthopedic surgeon on Monday and his office advised me to wait on the MRI until he sees me first. Then told me that he’ll want an MRI stat if he decides I need one of course. This all helps when I live in the middle of nowhere and have to drive 2 1/2 hours to the ortho.

Well, you can either keep taking the cycle, order Clomid now and take nothing until it comes, or start Tamoxifen now and switch when Clomid shows up. It’s not a massive risk, but clots did occur in 1% of female users in one study. Odds are in your favor, but if I had only been on an oral cycle for 3 weeks I wouldn’t feel bad at all just taking nothing for now until Clomid comes next week.

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Yeah I think I’ll just come off and wait for the clomid. I don’t think I should be super suppressed from something that short term, but if it turns out that I am I will use the tamox until the clomid gets here this next week.

I wouldn’t think they would be able to schedule a surgery for next week anyways but this ortho did get me in surprisingly fast. Probably because my PT friend works with him a lot and he asked for a favor for me. I’m really glad to get in to this guy because he’s supposed to be one of the top orthopedic surgeons in Oklahoma currently.

When I was 17 I broke my leg in a football injury and was able to be back playing again in 10 weeks which was a pretty astonishing recovery, so hopefully I’m able to do another great recovery with this injury.

 

[Mikereyn513]

Hopefully 17 years old wast too long ago then lol

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Just an update for everyone, this week has been ridiculously hectic between driving 5 hour round trip to surgeons and 3 hours driving the next day for an MRI, but I am scheduled for surgery Tuesday morning. It is for sure a distal bicep tendon rupture, but luckily the bicep has barely retracted. Have some BPC but am not certain on dosing protocols. Any help with that would be appreciated. It looks like most recommend sub q administration near the injury site.

 

[Hyde]

Subq, close as you can to injury, twice a day. Even 100mcg per shot is actually great, so if you reconstitute a 2mg vial with 2ml bac water then 0.1ml/10 units on an insulin syringe will be sufficient. If you have a 5mg vial, just fit at least 3ml in it, as much as you can, and draw up that 0.1cc/ml and call it good. More won’t hurt you, it’s just that people don’t realize how little you need. I would try to take it for a month. Initially after the surgery, you won’t be able to get it close, so initially I start with TB500 (which is totally systemic).

TB500, you want a ~5mg shot IM every week. You can take more or less, but if you whack a whole vial of that once a week for 4-6 weeks you will be set (it has something like a 5-day half life and builds up).Then begin the BPC, which is very fast-acting, as soon as you have access to the elbow. Just get it close as you can. It will suck because it’s tedious & stings a little, but it makes a difference and BPC is cheap.

Use 30g needles. No need for larger. You can get boxes of 100 for very cheap at Sam’s Club or Costco pharmacy behind the counter if you have access to those stores, otherwise just go to any pharmacy for your insulin syringes.

Also take 5-10g beef collagen peptides/powder twice a day (raws for repair), as well as 250-500mg vitamin c twice a day (stimulates collagen synthesis). You will be getting estrogen receptor mediated collagen synthesis already, but if you don’t get gyno easily, taking a very small dose of Pregnenolone daily will give you some progesterone-receptor mediated synthesis as well. I would look into a UC-II collagen supplement as well.

When it’s time, do the therapy work, every day, 5x a day.

 

[Gandalfthegreg]

Subq, close as you can to injury, twice a day. Even 100mcg per shot is actually great, so if you reconstitute a 2mg vial with 2ml bac water then 0.1ml/10 units on an insulin syringe will be sufficient. If you have a 5mg vial, just fit at least 3ml in it, as much as you can, and draw up that 0.1cc/ml and call it good. More won’t hurt you, it’s just that people don’t realize how little you need. I would try to take it for a month. Initially after the surgery, you won’t be able to get it close, so initially I start with TB500 (which is totally systemic).

TB500, you want a ~5mg shot IM every week. You can take more or less, but if you whack a whole vial of that once a week for 4-6 weeks you will be set (it has something like a 5-day half life and builds up).Then begin the BPC, which is very fast-acting, as soon as you have access to the elbow. Just get it close as you can. It will suck because it’s tedious & stings a little, but it makes a difference and BPC is cheap.

Use 30g needles. No need for larger. You can get boxes of 100 for very cheap at Sam’s Club or Costco pharmacy behind the counter if you have access to those stores, otherwise just go to any pharmacy for your insulin syringes.

Also take 5-10g beef collagen peptides/powder twice a day (raws for repair), as well as 250-500mg vitamin c twice a day (stimulates collagen synthesis). You will be getting estrogen receptor mediated collagen synthesis already, but if you don’t get gyno easily, taking a very small dose of Pregnenolone daily will give you some progesterone-receptor mediated synthesis as well. I would look into a UC-II collagen supplement as well.

When it’s time, do the therapy work, every day, 5x a day.

Thanks Hyde for the detailed protocol! I have most of those things on hand now, and if I’m lucky I can probably get the wife to help me with administering the BPC since it will be a little tricky giving sub q one handed and getting the skin pinched.

I know most people here probably aren’t interested in ecdysteroids or Turk at all, but I believe I saw a short clip one time of vigorous Steve talking about turkesterones potential for helping with collagen synthesis and helping with connective tissues. Does anyone have any advice or experience with this? I’m really just trying to get better at injury prevention as I get older, because injuries like this that sideline you for extended periods of time really suck.