Injectable replacement for tren during a strength cycle

[Gutterpump]

Trest and Tren is just greedy but to be honest, I'm probably gonna do that for the first half of my contest prep, lol. Something like 25mg/day of each should suffice.

When combined with Phenibut on occasion, it's real easy to please the lady partner. In fact, it's difficult to not go all fantasy mode on her in the middle of the night, lol. Trest is good in this way but I also have a dab of Masteron-E in there to intensify the drive.

Trest/tren (350/350mg per week) with some mast at around the same dose (300-400) per week would be great for contest prep! lol
I'd been planning on running this last spring/summer but got injured.

Check this out, so I'm running a couple nootropics that raise dopamine activity, and levels (tianeptine and emoxypine) and the other day I took a couple caps of phenibut at night, about 500mg worth. I had sex, finished, but it wouldn't go down, so I kept going, and finished again?!? It wasn't priapism as it went down after the 2nd time, but damn.... I think I'm onto something! Even caber/prami doesn't do this to me.

 

[Gutterpump]

Yes dienolone is a progestin, and much like the estrogen receptor, the progestin receptor will cause the breast tissue to swell. It looks like gyno but it's not. No tissue will differentiate or grow.

I would have to disagree on this as well because it caused my pre-existing nodule (gyno) to flare up and hurt. It wasn't water, the nodule itself hurt to touch, and nolva fixed it immediately.

 

[fueledpassion]

I would have to disagree on this as well because it caused my pre-existing nodule (gyno) to flare up and hurt. It wasn't water, the nodule itself hurt to touch, and nolva fixed it immediately.

This further supports my claim. The stuff raises estrogen. How? I'm not 100% sure but I know that controlling estrogen controls the issue.

I get that we should take stock in common scientific knowledge about hormones but I also know that until we can put a tracking device with a camera attached to the hormone as it floats around in our blood, we can't be 100% sure what the heck it ends up doing in our bodies, lol. There are other interactions that our bodies have with it that clearly make the outcome different than what scientific literature seems to suggest and at the end of the day, I will choose to believe what my lying eyes tell me, regardless what the science says ought to be true about it.

 

[Hyde]

So, concerning the oral pro-dienelone, does that also seem to increase estrogen? I've always known individuals to put a lot of water weight on with it but more of a bloated look than glycogen-increased muscle fullness. But this is purely visual and I have no experience with it.

 

[2kvette]

I would like to agree, except that the one study the FDA did with Dienolone showed a large increase in estrogen and that given my experience with Dienolone, an AI fixes all the issues with it. I realize it "can't convert" to estrogen but what I am saying is that it finds another mechanism of action to increase it. This I am certain of.

Dienolone has been a great reminder to the endocrine-science community that they don't have it all figured out just yet. You have to approach biological science (or any science) with this mindset. Just because 99.99% of all other hormones like it can't increase estrogen doesn't mean that this one has to follow those same pathways or rules. I also know that being IM acetate form, it behaves very differently from the transdermal or the pro-dienolone. Very different! So if you are basing your science and experience on that anecdotal experience with TD Dien or pro-Dien, don't.

We're talking about a nor hormone that chemically "is impossible to convert to estrogen" yet increases estrogen & prolactin and makes your balls bigger with more semen output as well. While Tren and Deca shrink you up, this stuff swells the nutsack when you take doses upwards of 700mg/wk. It defies common logic behind steroid use/interaction with the body.

Really?! I'm not doubting you at all, but can you link me to this. I really wanna read about it...

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

Mind fuked that nobody has mentioned NPP. It is relatively dry, awesome fullness, vascularity, and great strength gains.

Although closely related to deca, it is far different, the two can not even be compared.

I guess ima have to give some of this a shot.. but I have also had great strength on trest PP and Trest deca

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

This further supports my claim. The stuff raises estrogen. How? I'm not 100% sure but I know that controlling estrogen controls the issue.

.

IMO its the action at the androgen receptor itself.. the body likely just recognizes this as "test"/ i.e. once the epi:test ratio is off the body raises estrogen in response. don't over think it.

 

[fueledpassion]

IMO its the action at the androgen receptor itself.. the body likely just recognizes this as "test"/ i.e. once the epi:test ratio is off the body raises estrogen in response. don't over think it.

I'm not but I get criticized often when I recommend people treat Dienolone as a wet compound and to use an AI. I just want people to know what to really expect is all...

And what other mechanism does the body use to create estrogen other than conversion from T? Because the whole point of the argument is to say that Dien cannot convert to estrogen.

 

[2kvette]

I'm not but I get criticized often when I recommend people treat Dienolone as a wet compound and to use an AI. I just want people to know what to really expect is all...

And what other mechanism does the body use to create estrogen other than conversion from T? Because the whole point of the argument is to say that Dien cannot convert to estrogen.

There are many routes to estrogen other than T, dhea, androstenedione is the main route in women, some other exotic adrenal and neurosteroids as well. But I think lots of people are forgetting that estrogen is not the only thing that causes breast growth. Progestins like dienolone, nandrolone, and trenbolone can all cause breast growth b/c they have progesterone receptor activity. IGF-1 causes breast growth and is currently being investigated as an alternative to implants for breast enlargement in women in the form of a 17b-estradiol/IGF-1 combo shot. Also, what really matters as far as breast growth is the T/estradiol/progesterone ratio. Estrogen levels in men and women are about the same for half the menstrual cycle, but men have higher testosterone that acts as an antagonist to estradiol's effects.

 

[BigNerd]

I just wanted to stop in and bump. I'm reading everything you guys are posting, and learning quite a bit.
For now, my plan is still NPP, test, mast enanthate. Some of these other alternatives are quite enticing, though. I'll probably still continue to run anastrozole. Only had a minor case of gyno once. Not interested in doing that again.

Since I never start a new compound in conjunction with others that I've used (though I'm making an exception with the NPP), it will be several months before I can explore some of these other options. My last PCT went really well, and I'm back up and running again. I'll ride this out for a while and post again once I'm underway.

Thanks to all of you for your input. Keep it coming. Even though I'm not posting regularly, I'm definitely reading new posts.

 

[brofessorx]

Well some interesting stuff in here.

For now I'm just going to say, nandrolone (nor testosterone), trenbolone, dienolone, trestolone are all androgens, and are not progestin.

Though progestins share the same carbon structure, the difference lies in primary interaction.
All of these compounds listed in this thread are androgens.

 

[brofessorx]

I'm not but I get criticized often when I recommend people treat Dienolone as a wet compound and to use an AI. I just want people to know what to really expect is all...

And what other mechanism does the body use to create estrogen other than conversion from T? Because the whole point of the argument is to say that Dien cannot convert to estrogen.

im not criticizing you, your anecdotal feedback is very important, and doesn't seem to be unique.

And I left it out last time we discussed this, but I've found a way for dienolone to (possibly) convert into estrogen, but it seems to be a stretch .

Oh, and nor testosterone readily aromatizes into estrogen. Same for 7a methyl nor test, and 7a,17a di methyl nor test. (Cheque drops)

I don't like writing articles, but i had a lot i wanted to say here. so **** it here it goes.I came accross what I consider a pretty significant study recently. The question of whether trenazone/x-tren aromatizes has been an unanswered one.
Looking at the structure of trenazone(dienolone), a chemically minded person should think it impossible to aromatize it because of the delta-9(10) bond.
This bond, in simple terms, gets in the way of aromatization because the aromatic ring common to estradiol and other estrogens has a 5(10) double bond which is connected to the carbon at C10.

Because carbon can only be connected to 4 things at 1 given moment, the 9(10)-double bond combined with the 5(10)-double bond would make the carbon at C10 connected to 5 things.
This is chemically impossible, and therefore trenazone can't aromatize...or can it?Invalid Link Removed^
This study demonstrates the ability of a 4,9-dien-3-oxo steroid to aromatize. The steroid is called Dienogest. Here is its structure:[img=http://www.selleckchem.com/pic/digi/Dienogest.gif]The nomenclature of dienogest is the exact same as trenazone except it has a 17a-cyanomethyl group. Dienogest aromatizes because the 9(10) double bond is shifted or isomerized. Given how big the cyanomethyl group is, and the fact that there is a nitrogen at the end of it (which may change the electrophillic properties of the molecule) there may be a possibility for the nitrogen to interact with the 9-double bond and "loosen" it from its stable configuration. However, (and im no chemist) i'd venture a guess that this group would cause little to no change in the 'isomerization potential' of the 9-double bond, given how far away it is. Regardless, here is the nomeclature of the aromatized metabolite:17 alpha-cyanomethyl-estra-1,3,5(10),9(11)-tetraene-3,17 beta-diol^As you can see the 9-double bond has clearly isomerized to connect with carbon 11(^underlined). The double bond is now vertical. What does this mean for you?This metabolite has been identified in humans:^Invalid Link RemovedBut, this metabolite is clearly not estradiol. However it may have estrogenic activity. Im not going to try to characterize the potential estrogenic activity of this metabolite or of trenazone's potential one, as that's not really the point of this article. The fact of the matter is, dienolone can aromatize, but the question still remains unanswered as no metabolism studies on dienolone have been conducted as far as i'm aware.~Thanks for reading

Now promise me you'll stop quoting that federal study as it's garbage, which I thought you understood last time.

 

[brofessorx]

Yes dienolone is a progestin, and much like the estrogen receptor, the progestin receptor will cause the breast tissue to swell. It looks like gyno but it's not. No tissue will differentiate or grow.

No, it is not a progestin

It has very weak progesterone receptor activity compared to ar activity

 

[Gutterpump]

All of these compounds listed in this thread are androgens.

So you realize we're also talking about NPP, and you're calling this an androgen? Because it's definitely not, nor does it have much androgenic activity.

 

[brofessorx]

Nandrolone phenyl prop is nor-testosterone and is an strong androgen and very weak progestin.
If that's what you mean by npp that is.

I'll upload an image of various steroids and their pr and ar activity from wada
Invalid Link Removed

 

[2kvette]

No, it is not a progestin

It has very weak progesterone receptor activity compared to ar activity

comparitavely, but it is certainly a progestin. With 17% of PR activity compared to progesterone.

 

[2kvette]

No, it is not a progestin

It has very weak progesterone receptor activity compared to ar activity

Just did some more digging, nandrolone has 22% of the binding activity of progesterone. So dienolone is only slightly weaker of a progestogen than nandrolone.

 

[Hyde]

I have always understood them to be androgens, and in the case of NPP/deca, Tren, trest, dienelone, etc they also have some affinity for the progesterone receptor. But that's not the same thing as a progestin.

 

[2kvette]

I have always understood them to be androgens, and in the case of NPP/deca, Tren, trest, dienelone, etc they also have some affinity for the progesterone receptor. But that's not the same thing as a progestin.

Correct, they are androgens. But if you wanna get technical they are estr- skeleton based. A sort of hybrid carbon frame. So not really full fledged androgens either. The difference lies in the c-20 extension on the carbon frame and extended carbonyl.

 

[Hyde]

Correct, they are androgens. But if you wanna get technical they are estr- skeleton based. A sort of hybrid carbon frame. So not really full fledged androgens either. The difference lies in the c-20 extension on the carbon frame and extended carbonyl.

Eh, I don't really care too much for the technicalities, don't let me come off wrong! Just saying that I too did think they were more androgen than anything else, if we were to pick nits.

If they were progestins, it certainly wouldn't change my interest any lol

 

[brofessorx]

Just did some more digging, nandrolone has 22% of the binding activity of progesterone. So dienolone is only slightly weaker of a progestogen than nandrolone.

Binding affinity is different than whether it's a pr agonist or antagonist, and to what degree it does this.

 

[brofessorx]

Correct, they are androgens. But if you wanna get technical they are estr- skeleton based. A sort of hybrid carbon frame. So not really full fledged androgens either. The difference lies in the c-20 extension on the carbon frame and extended carbonyl.

many steroids have crossover activity

marketers call some progestins because they think it would fool the fda.
if the main activity is androgenic than they should be called androgens

I'll leave it at this.

 

[brofessorx]

Anyways, I read so far into this cause it took two pages (on my phone) before someone recommended trestolone, and then the incorrect thinking of calling androgens progestins caught my attention.
The point, many if not all androgens have the ability to bind with the progestin receptor to some degree d/t the structural makeup.
What is important is the activity that happens from this binding? It it antagonistic?( no activity) or agonistic? (Little to a lot of activity)
The compounds mentioned in this thread are regarded as androgens due to their primary activity. If they have more pr activity than ar, they are classified as progestins.
It's been fun, but this has taken too much of my time from my daughter.
I got me 30 tabs of 25mg superdrol to stack with trest phenyl-ace for my next cycle, and am training for the Spartan super, an 8-10 mile obstacle course.
If worried about the liver an organs, use cycle assist from cel, and tudca from Olympus labs.

 

[2kvette]

Binding affinity is different than whether it's a pr agonist or antagonist, and to what degree it does this.

Yes I know, I assay binding activities on a daily basis. They are agonists, and the degree to which it does this is 17% of progesterone. Which actually makes it a partial agonist at the PR receptor.

 

[2kvette]

I'll leave it at this.

And yes, it's most notable activity is seen through the androgen receptor.

 

[Gutterpump]

Nandrolone phenyl prop is nor-testosterone and is an strong androgen and very weak progestin.
If that's what you mean by npp that is.

I'll upload an image of various steroids and their pr and ar activity from wada

Thanks, this is definitely new to me and goes against what most people say, so I appreciate it.

How can nandrolone be an androgen if it has almost no androgenic activity though? It's highly anabolic and has very weak androgenic activity. This stumps me.

 

[Gutterpump]

I got me 30 tabs of 25mg superdrol to stack with trest phenyl-ace for my next cycle, and am training for the Spartan super, an 8-10 mile obstacle course.

Just a heads up, I also train for obstacle course races, and Trest is horrible cardiovascular wise. My cardio sucked on it. It's main use is for mass too. Any reason why you chose those 2? I can think of a few others that are far more geared towards your goals. Superdrol and Trest are going to hinder your performance.

 

[brofessorx]

Thanks, this is definitely new to me and goes against what most people say, so I appreciate it.

How can nandrolone be an androgen if it has almost no androgenic activity though? It's highly anabolic and has very weak androgenic activity. This stumps me.

Guess I should say, it's considered an androgen d/t it's level of interaction with the androgen receptor, not its potential for androgenic side effects.

 

[brofessorx]

Just a heads up, I also train for obstacle course races, and Trest is horrible cardiovascular wise. My cardio sucked on it. It's main use is for mass too. Any reason why you chose those 2? I can think of a few others that are far more geared towards your goals. Superdrol and Trest are going to hinder your performance.

The trest is going to be ran at about 75mg/week, so 25mg e/o/d. I'm hoping this low of a dose will be enough to counteract sides from the sd.

The sd was free. I had a choice between sd or tbol, and it'd been so long, I couldn't resist the temptation.
I'll probably end up getting a tablet splitter so I can half them.

It isn't until February, and this will only be about a 6-8 week cycle. ( sd being 4-6 depending on if I split the tabs)
So if things don't go well, there should still be time to fix any cardio issue with better ped's. Hopefully, or it'll really suck.

 

[Smont]

Anyways, I read so far into this cause it took two pages (on my phone) before someone recommended trestolone, and then the incorrect thinking of calling androgens progestins caught my attention.
The point, many if not all androgens have the ability to bind with the progestin receptor to some degree d/t the structural makeup.
What is important is the activity that happens from this binding? It it antagonistic?( no activity) or agonistic? (Little to a lot of activity)
The compounds mentioned in this thread are regarded as androgens due to their primary activity. If they have more pr activity than ar, they are classified as progestins.
It's been fun, but this has taken too much of my time from my daughter.
I got me 30 tabs of 25mg superdrol to stack with trest phenyl-ace for my next cycle, and am training for the Spartan super, an 8-10 mile obstacle course.
If worried about the liver an organs, use cycle assist from cel, and tudca from Olympus labs.

Trestolone was my first thought when i was this thread. Aside from that do you plan on logging the trest superdrol?

 

[Gutterpump]

The trest is going to be ran at about 75mg/week, so 25mg e/o/d. I'm hoping this low of a dose will be enough to counteract sides from the sd.

The sd was free. I had a choice between sd or tbol, and it'd been so long, I couldn't resist the temptation.
I'll probably end up getting a tablet splitter so I can half them.

It isn't until February, and this will only be about a 6-8 week cycle. ( sd being 4-6 depending on if I split the tabs)
So if things don't go well, there should still be time to fix any cardio issue with better ped's. Hopefully, or it'll really suck.

Ahh I see, I thought you were using them to train for the Spartan race. Grab some inj l-car

 

[fdigioia99]

Back to the original question. Answer 1 test cyp.

 

[fdigioia99]

Masteron can not hold a candle to npp when comparing to tren.

Masteron is one of my favorite hormones in prep the last few weeks, if at very low bodyfat, but if not in that situation, masteron really doesn't shine at all like npp or tren.

Lol definitely not true masteron adds to any cycle.

 

[Burnfire]

Lol definitely not true masteron adds to any cycle.

I've ran both NPP and mast, man I would love to two together maybe with an oral kicker. Masteron at a lower dose would have been amazing with some NPP!

 

[fdigioia99]

Agreed probably an amazing combo with some low dose test.

 

[aovereem]

Npp is great
Combine it with masteron and you're g2g

200 mast+200 npp+100 test e3d

 

[fdigioia99]

Right on!

 

[BigNerd]

Anyways, I read so far into this cause it took two pages (on my phone) before someone recommended trestolone, and then the incorrect thinking of calling androgens progestins caught my attention.
The point, many if not all androgens have the ability to bind with the progestin receptor to some degree d/t the structural makeup.
What is important is the activity that happens from this binding? It it antagonistic?( no activity) or agonistic? (Little to a lot of activity)
The compounds mentioned in this thread are regarded as androgens due to their primary activity. If they have more pr activity than ar, they are classified as progestins.
It's been fun, but this has taken too much of my time from my daughter.
I got me 30 tabs of 25mg superdrol to stack with trest phenyl-ace for my next cycle, and am training for the Spartan super, an 8-10 mile obstacle course.
If worried about the liver an organs, use cycle assist from cel, and tudca from Olympus labs.

I'd expect tremendous gains from that cycle. Methyl drostanolone is one of the best drugs I've ever used. I would surely expect it to negatively impact your blood work, though. I'm pretty certain you already know that, though.

 

[BigNerd]

Npp is great
Combine it with masteron and you're g2g

200 mast+200 npp+100 test e3d

Yep, that's very similar to what my cycle will look like. I'll be using Sust 250 as my additional testosterone. I got ahold of one that's a propionate, isocaproate, decanoate ester.

 

[BigNerd]

I'm wondering if anyone has recommendations on ancillaries. I'll probably run anastrozole alongside. I understand there may be some estrogen due to the NPP. I'm not too worried about that. My joints have seen better days.
Also, if anyone has recommendations about when I should start running HCG. I started it rather early in my last cycle, and I came back great.
Well, I also dosed GnRH (triptorelin) at what I thought was a crucial point.

Yes, I understand that I can't overuse the two. Chemical castration doesn't sound like fun.

I have access to everything, so give me any suggestions.

To reiterate, this is for a strength cycle. I'm as big as I ever want to be...which isn't huge by any standards.
I like to look like an off-season bodybuilder, but more size is not my aim.

 

[BigNerd]

NPP can't aromatize, no progestin can, there is no such thing as nor estrogen, all estrogens are carbon 19 absent. The gyno comes from increased fluid retention that is tissue specific b/c 19-nor steroids will bind and activate the progesterone receptor.

This right here is one of the reasons I joined AM. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the term "nor estrogen" in conjunction with a nandrolone discussion. I have some, but limited knowledge of biochem.

On that note, can anyone surmise how much estrogen antagonism I'll get using Masteron with a nortestosterone? I don't mind a little bit, just for the joint issues etc. Being that I'll run low doses of sust alongside I'll probably use .75 mg of anastrozole twice per weak.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[2kvette]

This right here is one of the reasons I joined AM. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the term "nor estrogen" in conjunction with a nandrolone discussion. I have some, but limited knowledge of biochem.

On that note, can anyone surmise how much estrogen antagonism I'll get using Masteron with a nortestosterone? I don't mind a little bit, just for the joint issues etc. Being that I'll run low doses of sust alongside I'll probably use .75 mg of anastrozole twice per weak.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Oh I know, tell me about it. They even use 17b-estradiol as the starting material for nandrolone just because it's C19 absent.

As for the amount of estrogen conversion, it's all over the place. It totally depends on the person. For TRT patients I've look at, they usually do a blood work 4 weeks after starting test to check E2 levels. So I'd advise to do that, start, then 4 weeks in check E2. Then if E2 is getting elevated, it's not going to be elevated long enough to cause much, if any, permanent growth.

 

[fueledpassion]

One thing I have learned is that gyno is rarely permanent unless it was developed early on in childhood and never properly dealt with then.

Coming off the gear and just allowing androgens to drop to physiological levels is enough to shrink the knots to almost nothing. Only other way is to cut the gland out, which if I knew of a good doctor around here that'd do it for cheap, I'd just get that done and never have to worry about it again.

 

[brofessorx]

NPP can't aromatize, no progestin can, there is no such thing as nor estrogen, all estrogens are carbon 19 absent. The gyno comes from increased fluid retention that is tissue specific b/c 19-nor steroids will bind and activate the progesterone receptor.

As I said earlier, you are incorrect, and I suggest you keep studying. Jbizzle is here to help you out though. :thumbsup:

This right here is one of the reasons I joined AM. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the term "nor estrogen" in conjunction with a nandrolone discussion. I have some, but limited knowledge of biochem.

Any other suggestions would be appreciated.

Yes, I suggest you research more of what you read. :spankme:

Oh I know, tell me about it. They even use 17b-estradiol as the starting material for nandrolone just because it's C19 absent.

Here's some steroid chemistry an metabolism for the newbs:
Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver.
However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes.
Invalid Link Removed
Lastly, nandrolone aka nor testosterone is an androgen with very little activity on the pr. Even winstrol binds with the progestin receptor. (But is an antagonist)
:smoker:

 

[2kvette]

As I said earlier, you are incorrect, and I suggest you keep studying. Jbizzle is here to help you out though. :thumbsup:

Yes, I suggest you research more of what you read. :spankme:


Here's some steroid chemistry an metabolism for the newbs:
Aromatization of steroids is a complex process of consecutive oxidation reactions which are catalyzed by cytochrome P450 enzymes. The conversion of the natural C19 steroids, testosterone and androstenedione, into estradiol-17beta and estrone is dependent on the oxidative elimination of the angular C19-methyl group. This complex key reaction is catalyzed by the cytochrome P450 aromatase, which is expressed in many tissues of the adult human (e.g. ovary, fat tissue), but not in the liver.
However, 19-nortestosterone derivatives are characterized by the lack of the C19-methyl group. Therefore, for the aromatization of these synthetic steroids, the action of the cytochrome P450 aromatase is not necessary and the oxidative introduction of double bonds into the A-ring can be catalyzed by other hepatic cytochrome P450 enzymes. The final key process in the formation of a phenolic A-ring, both in natural androgens and 19-nortestosterone derivatives, is the enolization of a 3-keto group to the C2-C3-enol or the C3-C4-enol moiety, which occurs without the action of enzymes.
Invalid Link Removed
Lastly, nandrolone aka nor testosterone is an androgen with very little activity on the pr. Even winstrol binds with the progestin receptor. (But is an antagonist)
:smoker:

Okay, this just got real funny to me. This is the difference in an actual scientist(one who actually went to school to become one) and a pub med warrior. You are not understanding what you are reading. They are not saying they aromatize, they are saying that due to the face of the molecule that the C19 methyl faces, they are unable to interact with Cyp3A4(aromatase). Given the lack of the stereo carbon on C19, the only option available is some unknown Cyp interaction or possible keto-enol tautomerization, meaning they are internally aromatizing them selves if at all possible.

I can get the whole article and probably have it by friday and not just the excerpt if anyone wants to read the whole experiment, then I'll really show you in depth what they're talking about.

And again, you are not understanding what you are reading, nandrolone is a potent progestin at dosages used. Your looking at the activity ratios as if they were one to one. They are not a perfect ratio in any practical application due to the dosages used to build skeletal muscle. So in reality the average bodybuilder winds up with several fold increased PR activation than his mother on progesterone for her menopause.

 

[fdigioia99]

Okay, this just got real funny to me. This is the difference in an actual scientist(one who actually went to school to become one) and a pub med warrior. You are not understanding what you are reading. They are not saying they aromatize, they are saying that due to the face of the molecule that the C19 methyl faces, they are unable to interact with Cyp3A4(aromatase). Given the lack of the stereo carbon on C19, the only option available is some unknown Cyp interaction or possible keto-enol tautomerization, meaning they are internally aromatizing them selves if at all possible.

I can get the whole article and probably have it by friday and not just the excerpt if anyone wants to read the whole experiment, then I'll really show you in depth what they're talking about.

And again, you are not understanding what you are reading, nandrolone is a potent progestin at dosages used. Your looking at the activity ratios as if they were one to one. They are not a perfect ratio in any practical application due to the dosages used to build skeletal muscle. So in reality the average bodybuilder winds up with several fold increased PR activation than his mother on progesterone for her menopause.

You are correct.

 

[brofessorx]

Yes, actually, that is exactly what they are saying. The study was to see how it does so in the liver.
im not sure why you refuse to accept this.

CONCLUSION: 19-nortestosterone derivatives (norethisterone, norethynodrel, tibolone) can readily be aromatized in the adult human liver.
Invalid Link Removed

My final plea: if you continue to disagree, please shoot Patrick Arnold an email telling him how he is wrong, cause he clearly has no idea.

Note: Other supplement companies should now thank me in advance for providing them once again with the following free information that they will undoubtedly exploit with no credit to me once again.
[...]
Both nortestosterone and testosterone precursors can convert to estrogens.
However it is unclear how much norandrostenedione can convert to estrogens although we know that it is probably significantly less then androstenedione. It is interesting to note that although the diones can aromatize directly to estrogens the diols CANNOT. That is because the diols lack an enolizable C3 ketone.
The nortestosterone and testosterone that the Norandrodiol and Androdiol convert to respectively however can directly aromatize.

 

[brofessorx]

I think of myself as some random dude who's only been on the forums, specifically am, since 08'.
So why does my word mean anything? It doesn't. Regardless of my working with a number of well known companies in the hay day of designer hormones.
So if providing sources for my info makes me a google ninja, well, I am.
I've been specifically studying steroid chemistry and metabolism for the last 8 years, and have had the honor of being tutored by the likes of great minds in this specific field who saw promise in me.

It's funny how things change over the years. Back in the day, all you ever got from veterans and those more knowledgeable was, "google that" and "go research ", "don't ask questions that can easily be googled " but now, one is considered less when he takes the time to research, and provide the sources of his research

 

[CATdiesel76]

I know of a lot of people who put on a ton of strength with Winny and EQ. Winny isn't so great on the bloods though and the joint pain won't be fun for powerlifitng

 

[fueledpassion]

I think of myself as some random dude who's only been on the forums, specifically am, since 08'.
So why does my word mean anything? It doesn't. Regardless of my working with a number of well known companies in the hay day of designer hormones.
So if providing sources for my info makes me a google ninja, well, I am.
I've been specifically studying steroid chemistry and metabolism for the last 8 years, and have had the honor of being tutored by the likes of great minds in this specific field who saw promise in me.

It's funny how things change over the years. Back in the day, all you ever got from veterans and those more knowledgeable was, "google that" and "go research ", "don't ask questions that can easily be googled " but now, one is considered less when he takes the time to research, and provide the sources of his research

Interesting observation! What a conundrum.

I want to add that I do not care for collegiate aficionados nullifying any sort of self-education as if it were not as legitimate as having someone hold your hand while you pay them 10's of thousands of dollars to narrate your educational effort for you. Not to mention, as seen in politics today, the education system (along with the media) has been hi-jacked by narrow-minded science, politics and worldviews anyways. The formal education system is the most boring, un-diverse organization on earth which is counterproductive to the idea of acquiring new knowledge and learning. And for additional support, the definition of education reads:

"the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life".

I emboldened the part I thought significant. You don't need brick and mortar universities to be "smart" or legitimate in your thinking. That said, formal education can have it's place but since the interwebz, it is less significant.

Now, I'm not sure which if you is right or wrong on the matter, but neither of you are down to earth about the subject. Pie-in-the-sky talk is fun but not helpful to most people on this forum. Kinda like the Dienolone situation. So it can't convert directly to estrogen in the body...ok, I got it. But the end consequence is more estrogen in the body when you take Dienolone, so who gives a crap how exactly it happened - all we know is that it did and we have to address it via AI's like everything else.