Injectable choline and carnitine?

[Jstrong20]

I've watched some of Alex kikels videos and he seems to think choline injected works well. Problem is I can't even find it by itself so m guessing I have to make it. Carnatine I've already used and it took awhile probably because I didn't load a large dose but I was very noticeable after awhile. So does anybody have experience with choline injections? Dose? Also I was hopeing for a Black Friday sale to pick up carnitine chrso but I guess I'll have to start brewing it. 60 dollars for a month worth is crazy for what it is.

 

[thescience]

no. dont do this

 

[Jstrong20]

Why do you say that? Injectable carnitine is pretty good. I'm not doubting you but wondering why you are against injectable choline?

 

[thescience]

if you did it, youde just get tired of doing it because the reward isnt worth the benefit. wet your arm and rub it in. add rose scented dmso if you arent sure you took most of it in. choline has a much shorter half-life than phosphatidylcholine. incidentally, phosphatidlycholine has a 98% absorption rate.

 

[Jstrong20]

Well I'm already using injectable l carnitine so I would just shoot it at the same time. I'd imagine most give up on it too soon but used it for months and then went without and it is noticeable for sure. I'm open to suggestions though. I've never seen someone use choline with dsmo or plongel so that might work wel too. To be fair though I haven't seen much on choline but kikel seems to think the injectable form is great so thought I'd see if anybody had experience with it. Can't find too much info on it besides him.

 

[thescience]

Well I'm already using injectable l carnitine so I would just shoot it at the same time. I'd imagine most give up on it too soon but used it for months and then went without and it is noticeable for sure. I'm open to suggestions though. I've never seen someone use choline with dsmo or plongel so that might work wel too. To be fair though I haven't seen much on choline but kikel seems to think the injectable form is great so thought I'd see if anybody had experience with it. Can't find too much info on it besides him.

have you ever gotten massive pumps from injecting carnitine?

 

[Jstrong20]

It took awhile to notice orobably because I didn't load it at 200mgs per 55lbs of bodyweight. Definatley better pumps, erections and a fuller, leaner look. This is both on and off cycle. I wouldn't say massive pumps like superdrol or anadrol would give me though. The main thing is I notice key looked better and off cycle still had fuller muscles.

 

[thescience]

Yeah that is all you could really get from it, but that also is totally achievable orally or transdermally

 

[thescience]

looks like citicholine is pretty inexpensive these days. Amazing half life on that

 

[Hyde]

looks like citicholine is pretty inexpensive these days. Amazing half life on that

Citicholine is a nice supplement that I keep around for work days, but it’s not remotely comparable to an appropriate dose of Choline Chloride injected IM preWO.

It’s excellent for lifting heavier, more intensely, while not suffering the amount of brain fog afterwards. It can definitely help you reach a higher level in power training - certainly better than Alpha GPC or Phosphatdylcholine for me.

Jstrong, check out Derel Strength and Better Through Biology. Both have solo carnitine & choline chloride preparations, as well as blends at different strengths. You are going to want about 1-200mg choline depending on bodyweight and personal response. I like 140-200mg. So most people will be looking at a 3:2 carn:choline ratio, but if strictly doing peaking training for strength you might be looking for 1:1, or even less carn if the sweating is too undesirable.

 

[Hyde]

have you ever gotten massive pumps from injecting carnitine?

Also, yes, but you didn’t ask me.

 

[thescience]

Also, yes, but you didn’t ask me.

Citicholine is a nice supplement that I keep around for work days, but it’s not remotely comparable to an appropriate dose of Choline Chloride injected IM preWO.

It’s excellent for lifting heavier, more intensely, while not suffering the amount of brain fog afterwards. It can definitely help you reach a higher level in power training - certainly better than Alpha GPC or Phosphatdylcholine for me.

Jstrong, check out Derel Strength and Better Through Biology. Both have solo carnitine & choline chloride preparations, as well as blends at different strengths. You are going to want about 1-200mg choline depending on bodyweight and personal response. I like 140-200mg. So most people will be looking at a 3:2 carn:choline ratio, but if strictly doing peaking training for strength you might be looking for 1:1, or even less carn if the sweating

 

[thescience]

Ive heard of sweating with choline anyway orally at the above 6g mark and ive wondered if that was rather not a negative side but a desirable increase in the metabolic rate from increased epinephrine. Havebt heard about carnitine causing sweats, orally anyway. i . I could see how having more acetylcholine would help a workout. Huperzine A is dirt cheap, really strong, and is being sold at 400mcg doses now

 

[thescience]

I dont have info on choline chloride half-life. Isnt that the form that makes people smell like fish? I guess that is only at insane dosages though

 

[Hyde]

Ive heard of sweating with choline anyway orally at the above 6g mark and ive wondered if that was rather not a negative side but a desirable increase in the metabolic rate from increased epinephrine. Havebt heard about carnitine causing sweats, orally anyway. i . I could see how having more acetylcholine would help a workout. Huperzine A is dirt cheap, really strong, and is being sold at 400mcg doses now

Injectable carnitine is night and day from oral at any dosage. Inject 400mg l-carnitine and consume some sodium and carbohydrates immediately pre/intra, and you will be able to get more pumped and run warmer, with better endurance over the session/faster intra-set muscle recovery.

I always take Hup A pre-training, alone with Citicholone, AlphaGPC, or when training very heavy the intramuscular Choline Chloride. They pair nicely still overall.

I dont have info on choline chloride half-life. Isnt that the form that makes people smell like fish? I guess that is only at insane dosages though

I don’t know the half-life, but I inject my carnitine about 15 minutes before I start warming up, and I can say the choline definitely lasts long enough to do all of my squat training during a peaking block. This would be a time with many sets & long rests, not often concluding for over 90 minutes from beginning general warmup/activation drills.

So…it lasts long enough to train sufficiently, is the practical anecdote in a nutshell.

 

[thescience]

Injectable carnitine is night and day from oral at any dosage. Inject 400mg l-carnitine and consume some sodium and carbohydrates immediately pre/intra, and you will be able to get more pumped and run warmer, with better endurance over the session/faster intra-set muscle recovery.

I always take Hup A pre-training, alone with Citicholone, AlphaGPC, or when training very heavy the intramuscular Choline Chloride. They pair nicely still overall.



I don’t know the half-life, but I inject my carnitine about 15 minutes before I start warming up, and I can say the choline definitely lasts long enough to do all of my squat training during a peaking block. This would be a time with many sets & long rests, not often concluding for over 90 minutes from beginning general warmup/activation drills.

So…it lasts long enough to train sufficiently, is the practical anecdote in a nutshell.

before arginine, people where doing high dose carnitine for pumps, but youre talking weeks before saturation and getting pumped as hell, as oral absorption declines with continued use. Maybe the injection reduces that window?
How much huperzine are you taking? Would just increasing the dose get you to wherever choline chloride injected would? The huperzine definitately lasts for a long time, well beyond a workout. I can easily take in 600mcg in a day. Do injections really become so routine that theyre seen as equally convenient to swallowing pills?

 

[Hyde]

before arginine, people where doing high dose carnitine for pumps, but youre talking weeks before saturation and getting pumped as hell, as oral absorption declines with continued use. Maybe the injection reduces that window?
How much huperzine are you taking? Would just increasing the dose get you to wherever choline chloride injected would? The huperzine definitately lasts for a long time, well beyond a workout. I can easily take in 600mcg in a day. Do injections really become so routine that theyre seen as equally convenient to swallowing pills?

The human studies we have on l-carnitine are oral and intravenous application. They haven’t been done on intramuscular, so we have to extrapolate - we know IM use tends to be similar in result to IV on many things, just slower release of the drug to the bloodstream.

Oral use cannot raise carnitine to supraphysiological levels; they fall rapidly after a spike. IV therapy DOES keep them elevated a substantial amount over baseline. You can’t keep an enhanced level with oral. And you don’t NEED to load IM carnitine; I never have. On the very first injection ever, I noticed I was sweatier & had better pumps, and felt like I had more energy to train. You can receive benefits from acute use, and will still reach an elevated saturation over baseline after weeks of use around training without loading. But you can get pumps on day 1.

Something like 100mcg Hup A are the ones I have. No, no amount of huperzine inhibiting breakdown is going to be or feel the same as an exogenous wave of surplus rolling over you available for sudden use. That would be like the difference in using testosterone enanthate routinely at any weekly dosage vs taking testosterone suspension specifically before training. Different feel, different cellular activities/acute gene expressions, different use cases.

I would not rely on injectable choline to raise my overall general choline levels; I can take citicholine for that and hup A. I take AlphaGPC acutely for training performance, or injectable specifically for very intense training. Not working out; training a motor pattern. Thinking burns choline, as does learning, lifting, all mental effort. If the raw substrate isn’t available in the brain, it will destroy existing structure for material to make the new connections. You want to be able to pay the learning/lifting toll up front.

Nothing about injections are inherently routine. You need to decide what is worth what effort to you. Everyone doesn’t need to inject choline to go do 60 minutes of machine screwoff training at their local Crunch fitness. If you are training for a competition for 4 months where all of your meals, sleep, and lifestyle are focused on improving the outcome of 1 day by even 2% for a plastic trophy, a 30-second slin pin injection a few times per week might easily be worth it to you.

 

[Jstrong20]

I figured I'll be injecting carbitine pre workout so my as well as in the choline. Might try to home brew both. Also Hyde did you ever try dada? I see both the places you listed have it. Never even heard about it until I seen kikel mention it. I plan on trying to break a record that is basically most reps with a set weight. Sounds like it would be perfect for that.

 

[thescience]

The human studies we have on l-carnitine are oral and intravenous application. They haven’t been done on intramuscular, so we have to extrapolate - we know IM use tends to be similar in result to IV on many things, just slower release of the drug to the bloodstream.

Oral use cannot raise carnitine to supraphysiological levels; they fall rapidly after a spike. IV therapy DOES keep them elevated a substantial amount over baseline. You can’t keep an enhanced level with oral. And you don’t NEED to load IM carnitine; I never have. On the very first injection ever, I noticed I was sweatier & had better pumps, and felt like I had more energy to train. You can receive benefits from acute use, and will still reach an elevated saturation over baseline after weeks of use around training without loading. But you can get pumps on day 1.

Something like 100mcg Hup A are the ones I have. No, no amount of huperzine inhibiting breakdown is going to be or feel the same as an exogenous wave of surplus rolling over you available for sudden use. That would be like the difference in using testosterone enanthate routinely at any weekly dosage vs taking testosterone suspension specifically before training. Different feel, different cellular activities/acute gene expressions, different use cases.

I would not rely on injectable choline to raise my overall general choline levels; I can take citicholine for that and hup A. I take AlphaGPC acutely for training performance, or injectable specifically for very intense training. Not working out; training a motor pattern. Thinking burns choline, as does learning, lifting, all mental effort. If the raw substrate isn’t available in the brain, it will destroy existing structure for material to make the new connections. You want to be able to pay the learning/lifting toll up front.

Nothing about injections are inherently routine. You need to decide what is worth what effort to you. Everyone doesn’t need to inject choline to go do 60 minutes of machine screwoff training at their local Crunch fitness. If you are training for a competition for 4 months where all of your meals, sleep, and lifestyle are focused on improving the outcome of 1 day by even 2% for a plastic trophy, a 30-second slin pin injection a few times per week might easily be worth it to you.

Always fascinating to see what in Gods name is rolling around in the brain of a compeitive lifter. I sure as hell wouldnt know. Thanks for the insight.

yeah i think the drop of carnitive absorption is why large doses were taken. N.o. Bomb was a high dose plcar supplement that was designed for pumps and delivered. Protein factory claims they sold plcar powder before that. I would say i got as pumped as anyone would want to be on that, but it took a few weeks. There was also that study of plcar and acetylcarnitine at 2/2g that outperformed a test injection on several sexual performance parameters. Definately less efficient than an injection, but i have to wonder if there’s an additional accumulative benefit of daily carnitine injections.

adding citicholine to my routine

 

[Hyde]

I figured I'll be injecting carbitine pre workout so my as well as in the choline. Might try to home brew both. Also Hyde did you ever try dada? I see both the places you listed have it. Never even heard about it until I seen kikel mention it. I plan on trying to break a record that is basically most reps with a set weight. Sounds like it would be perfect for that.

I have not used it, because my training goals don’t really benefit from that kind of aid, unless I was to use it very far out in early accumulation blocks in a very long macrocycle (like taking a year before competing again).

I only know what I have heard Jake Benson discuss, but it sounds like that’s probably the right tool for your rep record job. It sounds like DADA has the potential to remove some governors during glycolytic work, so if the athlete doesn’t stop at some predefined limit they can more easily keep pushing activity further until injury occurs.

Not sure if that is right, but I do know it’s something that needs to be deployed in conjunction with some caution & mindfulness.

Always fascinating to see what in Gods name is rolling around in the brain of a compeitive lifter. I sure as hell wouldnt know. Thanks for the insight.

yeah i think the drop of carnitive absorption is why large doses were taken. N.o. Bomb was a high dose plcar supplement that was designed for pumps and delivered. Protein factory claims they sold plcar powder before that. I would say i got as pumped as anyone would want to be on that, but it took a few weeks. There was also that study of plcar and acetylcarnitine at 2/2g that outperformed a test injection on several sexual performance parameters. Definately less efficient than an injection, but i have to wonder if there’s an additional accumulative benefit of daily carnitine injections.

adding citicholine to my routine

If you mean you are wondering if there’s benefit to daily l-carnitine injections, yes, on a background foundational level it will improve things basally when used such.

If you meant that you wonder if stacking plcar & ALCAR with injectable l-carn was worthwhile, I would suspect probably, if you desire all of their respective traits, because they really do very different things. Different tools for different jobs.

 

[thescience]

Distribution and metabolism of intravenously administered choline[methyl- 3-H] and synthesis in vivo of acetylcholine in various tissues of guinea pigs - PubMed

The biosynthesis of acetylcholine and the fate of intravenously administered choline [methyl- 3-H] were studied in guinea pigs anesthetized with pentobarbital. Choline and acetylcholine were isolated by paper electrophoresis and estimated by use of a specific enzymatic (choline kinase) -...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

i thought this was interesting:

"The initial half-life of choline in plasma, estimated from the rate of disappearance of choline after intravenous administration of either a tracer dose of choline [methyl- 3-H] (0.031 mumol/kg) or a high dose of choline chloride (200 mumol/kg), was less than 1 minute. This rapid removal of choline from plasma resulted from uptake (or binding) by tissues, with kidney and liver removing about 50% of the administered dose of choline [methyl- 3-H] within 3 minutes after its administration. Uptake of choline occurred in all tissues cited above, but there was a 20-fold difference in the uptake by the most active tissues (kidney and adrenals), as compared to that of the least active (central nervous system). Within 60 minutes after administration of choline [methyl- 3-H], most of the radioactive choline taken up by tissues had been converted to organic-soluble metabolites and to water-soluble metabolites that behaved like either phosphorylcholine or betaine during paper electrophoresis and chromatography."

 

[teamguy312]

I just bought a 50ml vial of 500mg/ml l-carnitine. I heard it's extremely beneficial and between HGH and IGF-1, I aleady pin 5 times a day an that doesn't include any AAS like test. So, I'm assuming I'll be doing 7-8 subq injections a day, how fun, haha.

 

[thescience]

well i just learned the hard way that high doses of citicholine contain a bone-crunching amount of phosphorus. apparently 28%, looked into it after my bones starting hurting. choline citrate gets around that. apparently, phosphatidylcholine is only 13% choline

 

[Hyde]

well i just learned the hard way that high doses of citicholine contain a bone-crunching amount of phosphorus. apparently 28%, looked into it after my bones starting hurting. choline citrate gets around that. apparently, phosphatidylcholine is only 13% choline

SNS has Choline Citrate powder that is cheap AF. I have been using 1g intra training since Black Friday sale, with 300mg pure Alpha GPC preWO, and it has definitely helped reduce brain fog after heavy training.

It smells bad (fishy) but tastes great - sour, in a good way, and it’s honestly tasty dryscooped or put into a flavored mix with carb powder or aminos. Very happy with adding it in, FWIW.