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In Defense of Ephedrine

John Benz said:

I won't pick apart uncited articles, as without citation and publication, it's just someone's opinion, not a reference source. The authors of these uncited and unpublished works have no credibility, even less than the writers of a bodybuilding mag. At least those writers know their subject, and are not delving into whether gluatamine can cure feline aids through intravenous administration or grow new skin on a deformed dog. Sheeeeze, do you even read what you post, or just spit out words to see where they splatter? Please do not keep quoting and posting uncited work. This argument is over. Sorry you can't find any journal publications to back up your articles.
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This is opinion? LMAO! A double blind study, in lab report format is someone's opinion? Oh god, I have honestly heard it all. No credibility? Wtf? This is great. But a glutamine article in Testosterone Magazine does? Hahahaha. Good ****.... well like I said, if you can not refute them because you can not find the proper material, then leave well enough alone.
 
windwords7 said:
That's where multiple studies become the key, seeing the study demonstrated more than once, in different circumstances, with the same or similar results.
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These can be used for personal reference, but if unpublished cannot be used as definitive evidence, as 3 unpublished studies are simply 3 opinions that agree on a point. To be published, you must meet a set of criteria and rigid parameters. many of these glutamine studies done on lab rats etc, don't even mention number of rats, aids patients, etc; how long they were studied, or how rigid were the controls.

Without knowledge of these variables, these studies are invaid and worthless as definative references.
 
Well I got bored, so I took it upon myself to research if these articles really were journal publications, and uh oh.....

The first one is from the American Academy of Neurology.
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The same authors can be seen cited in the NEJM & JAMA.


The second is also published, by a lesser known, but known publishing group:

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Not too worried about this one, this was the most obvious of the studies.


The third one can be found here in full text:

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Appears on hundreds of university online libraries and published by the same organization as above, not to mention government approved.

The 4th can be found in full text here:

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(Note the website), its also published in by the same group as above
and also published by Annals of Internal Medicine and can be found here: Invalid Link Removed Published by JAMA.


And the final article can be found here in full text:

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And also posted in the American Journal of Physiology.


**So there you have it, all credibility is confirmed. Damn, that was some work. ;)
 
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YellowJacket said:


This is opinion? LMAO! A double blind study, in lab report format is someone's opinion? Oh god, I have honestly heard it all. No credibility? Wtf? This is great. But a glutamine article in Testosterone Magazine does? Hahahaha. Good ****.... well like I said, if you can not refute them because you can not find the proper material, then leave well enough alone.
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Take your own advice. Testosterone magazine articles showing Dr Eric Serrano's personal results are far more valid than your half-baked double-blind lab aids study with no citation. What are the credentials of your testers? How were the controls set up? And where are the double blind studies on healthy weight-lifting human patients to refute the well renouned work of Eric Serrano? Too much for you? Come back when you understand, and when you figure out how to cite some real published studies for me refute. I won't refute an invalid double blind on lab rats or aids patients. Nothing to do with Bodybuilders and their added need for glutamine.
 
I do tire of reading about animals when it may or may not have anything to do with how it effects humans. We talked many a moon ago on BB.com about setting up a study center just to test stuff on humans, specifically bodybuilders for just that reason.
 
Hey Hal. These studies do exist. I researched medline for 4 days going though hundreds of abstracts. All it takes is time but I guess you want things spoon-fed to you.

As far as the prestige of certain journals...because they are peer-reviewed, they like it when you tell them what they want to hear...much like a university science course. Consider the JAMA. The american medical association probably has very strong ties to the pharmaceutical industry...hence the word "medicine". Do you think they want to hear that a $30 bottle of ECA is more effective than their 100-something dollar drug and is still safe? I think people want to believe that MDs are always concerned about the well being of their patients, but ever wonder why doctors prescribe anti-biotics for a flu or cold? This over-prescription is why bacteria are becoming resistant to our medicines.

The other journals probably aren't as prestigous as the JAMA or New Eng J Med, but a properly done study should be regarded just as much ..especially when the trial is replicated with similar results. Unitl double-blind placebo-controlled studies conclude that ephedrine causes unwanted side effects, I wouldn't trash the current research just because the MDs of this world dont want their profession associated with it.
 
YellowJacket said:
Well I got bored, so I took it upon myself to research if these articles really were journal publications, and uh oh.....
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Good job. See, you can find them if you look. These have much more relevance. Now I'm off to bed. :)
 
Listen, I take my own results over studies when it's all said and done. If I know it works for me, I don't care what anyone else says. Even if that ends up meaning that it's all placebo effect, I really don't care. What I care about are results. How I get those results arent the primary issue to me. THAT I get the results is. Some good points pzub. Benz you have some good points and as always, so does YJ.
 
I totally agree ww7. I think that people underestimate the placebo effect. Think about it this way, if you buy a supplement to increase strength. Even if there's no "scientific evidence" for it, if you take it and you increase your strength more than you normally would have, is it really a **** supplement and a waste of money? For some people, its their psychological side that prevents from achieving any serious gains, so I say if the supplement did what you wanted it to do and you didn't mind paying for it, then all the power to you. What if someone created a treatment for cancer that was highly effective...do you think the patient would care if it was a placebo-effect, if it god rid of the cancer?
 
why can't modern medicine and holistic medicine just get along like they do in Germany and most of europe? probably because it doesn't cost much to rip a plant out of the ground....;)
 
Ok, Not agreeing or disagreeing here but heres my only problem with that....

Ok, Im a creatine non responder. So I buy some anyway, I gain 10lbs on my bench in 3 weeks, pretty good. All placebo right? Ok, heres where Science comes in. To each his own, somethings work for different people, creatine doesnt work for me, nor does glutamine. But some people swear by it. Science and studies are the golden standard. They set the mark for the general population, not just in bodybuilding. They provide physiological reasons as to WHY what works and what doesnt. People want to debate me in various things related to supplementation effectiveness, I provide countless studies, and I get in return "well it works for me". Well great, but things work differently for different people, I think we can all agree with that. So a study, backed with science provides information on how different supplements effect different people. Like the above studies.

Science saves money. Surei t works for you, great, but you can make a generalization and say it will work for everyone? No, not if you have any intelligence or common sense.
 
YellowJacket said:



I prefer Mexican and Portugal 'medicines' ;)
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Yeah...who would have thought that mexican "medicine" can used to treat every known ailment bodybuilders tend to get...:D
 
YJ, thanks for getting the citations up. All I really meant is that if one is going to go through the work of searching pubmed and posting the articles (I do appreciate you giving the full abstract as well as author and contact information) then the citation is perhaps the most important single line. Pubmed will pull up alot of crap that never gets published in a real journal.
 
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