IM vs Sub Q test pin - new study

Whisky

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Soooo this popped up on my Facebook feed. I’ve seen different views on IM vs Sub Q before and my own view has Been to pin my cruise doses sub q and my blast doses IM. Mainly as I don’t feel like putting 1.5ml plus of oil sub q is great but on smaller doses I like to give the muscle a rest (scar tissue in my glutes already an issue)

the numbers in this really suggest a big benefit in going sub q though so begs the question, should more of us be doing it??

I would like to know why (based on the heading) they used cyp for one and e for the other

 

FloridaMan

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Different esters probably just looks good on paper? I've used both interchangeably and had no blood work ever show a dip in levels when I switched. Unless they can tell chemically which is which in a lab setting?

Haven't we known forever that subQ is better for trt because of the different absorption rate? Idk if I buy that it produces "higher levels", more like the absorption rate is different so it will peg "higher" at the same blood draw time as IM injections

Also I find Tnation to be kinda a meme at this point, so an article from them is a joke to me
 

FloridaMan

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I know of someone doing subq with trest to minimize the estrogen sides as well. Who knows
Has he done blood work on trest with an IM shot at the same time/diet/routine?

Because that would be neat. Buddy that ran trest and GH at the same time looked like shrek for one of his meets haha
 
Whisky

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Different esters probably just looks good on paper? I've used both interchangeably and had no blood work ever show a dip in levels when I switched. Unless they can tell chemically which is which in a lab setting?

Haven't we known forever that subQ is better for trt because of the different absorption rate? Idk if I buy that it produces "higher levels", more like the absorption rate is different so it will peg "higher" at the same blood draw time as IM injections

Also I find Tnation to be kinda a meme at this point, so an article from them is a joke to me
yeah if they hadn’t linked the study I wouldn’t have posted it tbh. They can be hit and miss for sure (I serve any of the blatant biotest advert pieces).

from what I’ve seen IM vs sub q for test seems quite a split between people on either side.

the thing I’ve never been able to find (probably because with it not being trt it’s less likely to be studied) is how much you can pin sub q without issues and either other injectables/esters would be problematic (personal experience showed prop causes problems sub q)
 

FloridaMan

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yeah if they hadn’t linked the study I wouldn’t have posted it tbh. They can be hit and miss for sure (I serve any of the blatant biotest advert pieces).

from what I’ve seen IM vs sub q for test seems quite a split between people on either side.

the thing I’ve never been able to find (probably because with it not being trt it’s less likely to be studied) is how much you can pin sub q without issues and either other injectables/esters would be problematic (personal experience showed prop causes problems sub a)
How much you can pin is more a question of "how big of a bolous of oil do I want looking like a tumor on my belly", how fucking painful large amounts of oil would be into fat tissue, and how lean you are limiting your oil volume.
 

trumac

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Has he done blood work on trest with an IM shot at the same time/diet/routine?

Because that would be neat. Buddy that ran trest and GH at the same time looked like shrek for one of his meets haha
It was just mentioned in passing recently. I’m not sure that he’s done bloodwork both ways

How much you can pin is more a question of "how big of a bolous of oil do I want looking like a tumor on my belly", how fucking painful large amounts of oil would be into fat tissue, and how lean you are limiting your oil volume.
That’s why I stay fat
 

FloridaMan

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It was just mentioned in passing recently. I’m not sure that he’s done bloodwork both ways


That’s why I stay fat
Ah, well if he did/does I'd be interested

And lmao I stay fat because my wife complains that I'm a bad pillow if I'm lean
 
Whisky

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How much you can pin is more a question of "how big of a bolous of oil do I want looking like a tumor on my belly", how fucking painful large amounts of oil would be into fat tissue, and how lean you are limiting your oil volume.
id be more inclined to throw any sizeable amount of oil into hip or ass fat tbh.
 
Jinsun

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id be more inclined to throw any sizeable amount of oil into hip or ass fat tbh.
Definitely no reason to pin it in the stomach, fo sure. Derek from MPMD also has a strong opinion for trt SQ and I agree with him. More stable levels, less pain, less scar tissue.

I just pinned my right glut for an IM GH shot, haven't pinned anything fo a year now in that spot, and there was so much scar tissue that the 25g barely went through. I really cant imagine pinning trt IM for the rest of my life. Maybe decanoate which is once every two weeks or something like that if I am not mistaken.
 

FloridaMan

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Definitely no reason to pin it in the stomach, fo sure. Derek from MPMD also has a strong opinion for trt SQ and I agree with him. More stable levels, less pain, less scar tissue.

I just pinned my right glut for an IM GH shot, haven't pinned anything fo a year now in that spot, and there was so much scar tissue that the 25g barely went through. I really cant imagine pinning trt IM for the rest of my life. Maybe decanoate which is once every two weeks or something like that if I am not mistaken.
I have the same scar tissue problem in my VG these days, feels like pushing through rice krispies. I've played with subq here and there and don't really know why, other than muscle memory I don't keep doing it.

Only reason I say in the gut fat is because that's usually the place with the most fat available.
 
Jinsun

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I have the same scar tissue problem in my VG these days, feels like pushing through rice krispies.
Yeah, something like that lawl. And there is absolutely no feeling and pain when pushing through it. I had to look if the needle was actually in ...
 
Whisky

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I have the same scar tissue problem in my VG these days, feels like pushing through rice krispies. I've played with subq here and there and don't really know why, other than muscle memory I don't keep doing it.

Only reason I say in the gut fat is because that's usually the place with the most fat available.
that’s what my glutes are like. Delts that I use a 25g pin for aren’t as bad but the 23g on glutes 🙄

fair point re gut normally being the most. I lost a tonne of weight some years back and because of that the way my loose skin sits makes hips and ass much better for s q.
 

FloridaMan

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that’s what my glutes are like. Delts that I use a 25g pin for aren’t as bad but the 23g on glutes 🙄

fair point re gut normally being the most. I lost a tonne of weight some years back and because of that the way my loose skin sits makes hips and ass much better for s q.
Yeah I just started pinning in my pecs again because I'm tired of stabbing through the scar tissue... I wonder how scar tissue affects absorption lol

I am scared of the day I have nowhere left to pin but my calves. I pinned there on a bet once and holy hell that was gnarly. Which is another reason I like orals so much, less oil volume and pinning frequency means less scar tissue.
 
Whisky

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Yeah I just started pinning in my pecs again because I'm tired of stabbing through the scar tissue... I wonder how scar tissue affects absorption lol

I am scared of the day I have nowhere left to pin but my calves. I pinned there on a bet once and holy hell that was gnarly. Which is another reason I like orals so much, less oil volume and pinning frequency means less scar tissue.
I’ve started being more consistent with the massage gun on my regular pin sites to try and alleviate some of it but I don’t think it’s possible to really eliminate scar tissue regardless of what you do
 
Jinsun

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I never used 23g, always 25g and this is what I got ...

I think I injected partially in the scar tissue once. There was a bit more pip and burning sensation. Otherwise, I don't think you would absorb less oil due to it. Maybe it would take longer, I mean, it probably would.
 
Rocket3015

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I wonder what would happen if you inverted the esters in this study ??
 

FloridaMan

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I’ve started being more consistent with the massage gun on my regular pin sites to try and alleviate some of it but I don’t think it’s possible to really eliminate scar tissue regardless of what you do
How are those things? I always see the ads, but I never trust them... And there damn expensive
 

FloridaMan

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I never used 23g, always 25g and this is what I got ...

I think I injected partially in the scar tissue once. There was a bit more pip and burning sensation. Otherwise, I don't think you would absorb less oil due to it. Maybe it would take longer, I mean, it probably would.
Yeah I've never used 23g, those fuckers are big haha, hell I went a whole year using 27g just to see what affect it would have on scar tissue formation. Not perceived difference that I could tell, not that I got an MRI done or anything though
 
Jinsun

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How are those things? I always see the ads, but I never trust them... And there damn expensive
I'm just about to order one. So I am not experienced with them, but I presume they would help a lot with oil distribution and absorption and thus with pip.

I need it for my traps and quads though.
 

FloridaMan

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I'm just about to order one. So I am not experienced with them, but I presume they would help a lot with oil distribution and absorption and thus with pip.

I need it for my traps and quads though.
Yeah I want one for my hamstrings and traps... I just don't know how well they'll work vs normal massage or a good foam roller
 
Whisky

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How are those things? I always see the ads, but I never trust them... And there damn expensive
ive used the proper theragun and one of the much cheaper Chinese made generic ones (less than $100) and you can definitely tell the difference in power. The cheaper ones are ok ish but to really work the fascia or have any effect on scar tissue it’s worth buying the pricier versions. For oil distribution the cheaper ones work fine though.

the most powerful one I’ve ever used was a jigsaw attachment for massage - holy **** they are powerful and can be too much to handle for sure. That’s actually the way I would go if I didn’t want to spend on the proper massage gun though

 
Whisky

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Yeah I want one for my hamstrings and traps... I just don't know how well they'll work vs normal massage or a good foam roller
I own a pulseroll which I would put up there as one of the best tools you can get - really effective especially for quads and hamstrings
 

FloridaMan

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ive used the proper theragun and one of the much cheaper Chinese made generic ones (less than $100) and you can definitely tell the difference in power. The cheaper ones are ok ish but to really work the fascia or have any effect on scar tissue it’s worth buying the pricier versions. For oil distribution the cheaper ones work fine though.

the most powerful one I’ve ever used was a jigsaw attachment for massage - holy **** they are powerful and can be too much to handle for sure. That’s actually the way I would go if I didn’t want to spend on the proper massage gun though

I forgot they have the jigsaw attachments! I've got a few lying around doing nothing these days so I may just do that... Perks of going from field work to office boy I guess?
 

FloridaMan

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I own a pulseroll which I would put up there as one of the best tools you can get - really effective especially for quads and hamstrings
I just don't know if I could do it haha... I guess it's not so bad when I think about the fact that I'm going to be spending that much on a couple cycles of designer steroids
 
dillface02241

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All I know is that after 4-5 years of being on TRT and battling high hermatocrit the whole time, I no longer worry about it after I started pinning sub q. Also, I went from 1 ml (IM) to .6 per (sub q) week and my test levels are about the same (I get bloods every three months). No longer take anastrozole as sub q keeps my estrogen in check (or maybe the lower dose). So all around, sub q rocks. I'm on test cyp, don't know about other esters.
 
Whisky

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All I know is that after 4-5 years of being on TRT and battling high hermatocrit the whole time, I no longer worry about it after I started pinning sub q. Also, I went from 1 ml (IM) to .6 per (sub q) week and my test levels are about the same (I get bloods every three months). No longer take anastrozole as sub q keeps my estrogen in check (or maybe the lower dose). So all around, sub q rocks. I'm on test cyp, don't know about other esters.
useful first hand experience, thanks bro
 

FloridaMan

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All I know is that after 4-5 years of being on TRT and battling high hermatocrit the whole time, I no longer worry about it after I started pinning sub q. Also, I went from 1 ml (IM) to .6 per (sub q) week and my test levels are about the same (I get bloods every three months). No longer take anastrozole as sub q keeps my estrogen in check (or maybe the lower dose). So all around, sub q rocks. I'm on test cyp, don't know about other esters.
Those are some nice results going subq man
 
Jinsun

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Gonna have to boil the damn oil to push that hahaha
Draw with a 23 and pin with a 29 no? I never pin with the same needle that I draw with. It really blunts the edge to much. I used to laugh at this but now I find my self doing the same. It adds up, especially in regards to scar tissue.
 

FloridaMan

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I use 29 all the time for smaller amounts. No problem pushing it through at all
Really? Maybe it's the oil the compounding pharmacy uses near me, but if I accidentally grab a 27g I end up bending the damn plunger sometimes
 

FloridaMan

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Draw with a 23 and pin with a 29 no? I never pin with the same needle that I draw with. It really blunts the edge to much. I used to laugh at this but now I find my self doing the same. It adds up, especially in regards to scar tissue.
Oh man, for my first cycle I didn't know any better and didn't change pins. It felt like trying to pearce pig skin with a dull knife. I just couldn't imagine pushing oil through a 29g, I had enough trouble with the 27s.
 
Whisky

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Oh man, for my first cycle I didn't know any better and didn't change pins. It felt like trying to pearce pig skin with a dull knife. I just couldn't imagine pushing oil through a 29g, I had enough trouble with the 27s.
yeah I’m with you bro, my thumbs would end up hench AF if I tried to use a 29g for 1.5ml oil.

25g is the smallest I’ve used for any oil.....
 

FloridaMan

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yeah I’m with you bro, my thumbs would end up hench AF if I tried to use a 29g for 1.5ml oil.

25g is the smallest I’ve used for any oil.....
Yeah, I got hand cramps mid pin with the 27s. Had to sit there with a needle hanging off my ass, stretching my hand out and trying not to flex the pin site.
 

trumac

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yeah I’m with you bro, my thumbs would end up hench AF if I tried to use a 29g for 1.5ml oil.

25g is the smallest I’ve used for any oil.....
Yeah I wouldn’t use it for that much oil. I’m talking TRT amounts. For example the .38 ml twice a week for my TRT
 
Rocket3015

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All I know is that after 4-5 years of being on TRT and battling high hermatocrit the whole time, I no longer worry about it after I started pinning sub q. Also, I went from 1 ml (IM) to .6 per (sub q) week and my test levels are about the same (I get bloods every three months). No longer take anastrozole as sub q keeps my estrogen in check (or maybe the lower dose). So all around, sub q rocks. I'm on test cyp, don't know about other esters.
Than you for this info !
 

kl1234

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All I know is that after 4-5 years of being on TRT and battling high hermatocrit the whole time, I no longer worry about it after I started pinning sub q. Also, I went from 1 ml (IM) to .6 per (sub q) week and my test levels are about the same (I get bloods every three months). No longer take anastrozole as sub q keeps my estrogen in check (or maybe the lower dose). So all around, sub q rocks. I'm on test cyp, don't know about other esters.
Interesting. I’ve considered going this route. I’ve always used 23g into the VG... but scar tissue seems to be an issue in certain spots.
Do you typically pin stomach?
Needle size?
 

UNX

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I know of someone doing subq with trest to minimize the estrogen sides as well. Who knows
I'm currently in a test E/NPP cycle and planning to end with low trest ace SQ doses. I want to try trest and also start my PCT sooner.
 
dillface02241

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Draw with a 23 and pin with a 29 no? I never pin with the same needle that I draw with. It really blunts the edge to much. I used to laugh at this but now I find my self doing the same. It adds up, especially in regards to scar tissue.
Exactly, that's how I do it. Load a few pins at a time and you got a few weeks of them. I found if I do more than .4ml, i'll start getting those nodules that will last a couple days. If I do below .4, for the most part can't even remember which side I did last.
 
dillface02241

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Interesting. I’ve considered going this route. I’ve always used 23g into the VG... but scar tissue seems to be an issue in certain spots.
Do you typically pin stomach?
Needle size?
So far it's all been stomach. No issues to speak of as of yet, been about 6 months or so. I have like zero to very little fat anywhere on my body and barely have any on the stomach so there's really no other place to do it.
 

FloridaMan

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So far it's all been stomach. No issues to speak of as of yet, been about 6 months or so. I have like zero to very little fat anywhere on my body and barely have any on the stomach so there's really no other place to do it.
I have a question, do you use insulin syringes with fixed needles? Or do you get syringes and needles separate?
 
Whisky

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He said he draws with one needle and pinns with a nother ... so, what do ya think??
could be backloading a slin pin tbf. That’s what I would probably do

that would be a fixed needle slin pin to stab and a separate needle and syringe for drawing
 

FloridaMan

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He said he draws with one needle and pinns with a nother ... so, what do ya think??
Listen here you little **** lol... I can't keep track of all the different notifications anymore, I'm getting too old for this
 
Rocket3015

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So far it's all been stomach. No issues to speak of as of yet, been about 6 months or so. I have like zero to very little fat anywhere on my body and barely have any on the stomach so there's really no other place to do it.
I wish I had that "No Fat" Problem !!
 
Rocket3015

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Is there any reason you should not back load ??
 
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