i just designed the perfect preworkout in my head :-)

yep 600mg sulbutiamine is correct. there is or was a French Company named arcalion and they made this as a medicine against neurasthenia, which is defined as chronic fatigue which is caused by the brain and not the muscles. this was the effective dose. the preworkout is really meant to be used at 1 Scoop or less if one wants, not like others were People take 2-3 Scoops, this would be uncomfortable.

as for the fatburner i made it a way that it is strong thermogenic, gives People some of that alpha-yohimbine Stimulation because some People prefer that Feeling to smooth energy and if they want more caffeine and a really strong kick they can take 2 Scoops.

the preworkout is made so that it will give lots of energy but through increasing Serotonin and Endorphins and using ashwagandha and theanine it will be a pleasant and mood improving energy, not peripheral jittery type of energy.

going to check your Website. any retailers in the EU or are products only available there? well i will check it out.
 
redman24 said:
yep 600mg sulbutiamine is correct. there is or was a French Company named arcalion and they made this as a medicine against neurasthenia, which is defined as chronic fatigue which is caused by the brain and not the muscles. this was the effective dose. the preworkout is really meant to be used at 1 Scoop or less if one wants, not like others were People take 2-3 Scoops, this would be uncomfortable.

as for the fatburner i made it a way that it is strong thermogenic, gives People some of that alpha-yohimbine Stimulation because some People prefer that Feeling to smooth energy and if they want more caffeine and a really strong kick they can take 2 Scoops.

the preworkout is made so that it will give lots of energy but through increasing Serotonin and Endorphins and using ashwagandha and theanine it will be a pleasant and mood improving energy, not peripheral jittery type of energy.

going to check your Website. any retailers in the EU or are products only available there? well i will check it out.
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Sulbutamine does help with chronic fatigue, if the fatigue is all mental, not physical. Also I got some subutiamine that works at 50mg, so Idk about 600mg, or if its cut or uses a carrier. Just got back w 2 of my EU retailers, both aren't up yet, on "order now." at getdiesel.com for now they will only have DIESEL TEST Hardcore in the next few months. Amazon sends a lot of DTH to UK from US site, but may have it on the .co.uk site soon.

I do not prefer a thermo with over 180mg of caffeine, thats just too much to take 2x a day, after a while it doesnt work, you get headaches when you come off
and it fckes up ur pumps, so a low does one would be good. Also companies don't understand, a large % of the buying public is women, they can't handle 300mg of caffeine. Too much caffeine makes you dose the product based on how much caffeine you can take, not on results.


edit: I just re-read your post and saw you noted that it was for mental chronic fatigue. The thing w Chronic fatigue is doctors don't know why people get it, and in the US its considered almost a medical aliment. So basically it (sulbutamine) helps w brain fog.
 
yeah well, chronic fatigue may be due to post-viral symptoms, possibly even an undiscovered Virus or one that is there but hiding.
it can also be neurochemical. i do not consider sulbutiamine a stimulant and by itself i find it causes some mental awakeness but no physical effects. funnily, the reason i know about it and the dose is i do have symmptoms of cfs, but mine seem to be mostly neurochemical. the Body is strongly affected but the cause is somewhere in the brain. i think i lack norepinephrine and Endorphins. initially an ssnri and Opioids helped to completely reverse symptoms mentally and nearly completely physically, which again may Show that there is a physical cause but it does strongly affect the brain. possibly again inflammatory substances caused by a latent infection that get into the brain, as on bad days it feels like a flu, with strong cognitive Problems, then there is enormous pain as well, that has no Explanation but Needs Treatment on Level with cancer pain. i do not think i havve what People call cfs though, i think i just have symptoms of cfs as a result of whatever is going on in my Body.

i am sure the 600mg was pure sulbutiamine from the pharma Company. i have used various products at that dose and they all had pretty much the same effect.
any product in the past that claimed thiamin-disulfide-butyrate or whatever to be the main stim and worked like Speed actually contained some Kind of designer stimulants. what Kind of sulb is this you are talking about at 50mg? does it have something added to it to increase Absorption or such?

Melatonin? nah...if you want a gh boost try the sleep&ghrow preworkout. contains alpha-gpc, mucuna, green tea, ashwagandha and laxogenin. None of These should in any way make one tired, may even amplify the pwo eventhough i do not like cholinergic neurotransmission before workout. also will reduce cortisol fürther, although the ashwagandha dose may be a bit high if stacking with venom 2.0.

it Needs to be mentioned though, These are or the UK and german market mostly until now, i think the fatburner is also for poland. These will probably not be sold in the US unless a retailer is interested in carrying them.
 
redman24 said:
yeah well, chronic fatigue may be due to post-viral symptoms, possibly even an undiscovered Virus or one that is there but hiding.
it can also be neurochemical. i do not consider sulbutiamine a stimulant and by itself i find it causes some mental awakeness but no physical effects. funnily, the reason i know about it and the dose is i do have symmptoms of cfs, but mine seem to be mostly neurochemical. the Body is strongly affected but the cause is somewhere in the brain. i think i lack norepinephrine and Endorphins. initially an ssnri and Opioids helped to completely reverse symptoms mentally and nearly completely physically, which again may Show that there is a physical cause but it does strongly affect the brain. possibly again inflammatory substances caused by a latent infection that get into the brain, as on bad days it feels like a flu, with strong cognitive Problems, then there is enormous pain as well, that has no Explanation but Needs Treatment on Level with cancer pain. i do not think i have what People call cfs though, i think i just have symptoms of cfs as a result of whatever is going on in my Body.

i am sure the 600mg was pure sulbutiamine from the pharma Company. i have used various products at that dose and they all had pretty much the same effect.
any product in the past that claimed thiamin-disulfide-butyrate or whatever to be the main stim and worked like Speed actually contained some Kind of designer stimulants. what Kind of sulb is this you are talking about at 50mg? does it have something added to it to increase Absorption or such?

Melatonin? nah...if you want a gh boost try the sleep&ghrow preworkout. contains alpha-gpc, mucuna, green tea, ashwagandha and laxogenin. None of These should in any way make one tired, may even amplify the pwo eventhough i do not like cholinergic neurotransmission before workout. also will reduce cortisol fürther, although the ashwagandha dose may be a bit high if stacking with venom 2.0.

it Needs to be mentioned though, These are or the UK and german market mostly until now, i think the fatburner is also for poland. These will probably not be sold in the US unless a retailer is interested in carrying them.
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prob the synergy, but not going more into it bc I use and have been using sulbutiamine since like 2006 in products. Also CFS doesnt have one cause. Kinda like low libido, cant be associated with one thing. In the US some retailers consider sulbutamine a drug and Idk about Germany, but it is pretty expensive in the US and taste horrible. I personally think 600mg is a very high dose. Subutiamine is only a B vitamin and you don't need 600mg of any B-Vitamin in any form. I once read Japan developed it bc their diet use to be low in B1 and they needed a form of B1 that was very bioavail.
 
Sleep&ghrow looks like an interesting stack. However melatonin has never been show to have a detrimental effect on exercise performance, doesnt make people sleepy if taken during the day especially if in bright lights and has the additional effect of reducing oestrogen via aromatase inhibition.

The topic was a theoretical optimum pre workout - there may still be a place for a low dose melatonin. Granted some nitrates, agmatine and glycerol would be much higher up the list.
 
i always wonder how to Diagnose cfs and if a lot of People who Claim to have it are actually mentally ill, which i don't understand why they fight the idea so hard, as it doesn't mean it is their fault or they are imagining it. the brain is an organ and real mental illness is not a disturbance in behaviour but a neurochemical imbalance.
i would say i have many cfs symptoms besides the fact that i tolerate substances incredibly well, while most People with cfs seem to be sensitive to almost everything. which again makes me think that many may simply be unconsciously overwhelmed with life and have an extreme sensitivity to any Kind of Stimulus and their Brains have gotten used to this over time so that the whole structure of expectation and effect has been altered towards things Happening as they are expected.

for me i can feel that my Body sometimes crashes, like when i suddenly fall asleep at noon or have no energy to use the Laptop, then i feel mental symptoms like oversensitivity, cognitive disturbances etc.
this usually lasts a few days and then i go bback to normal, where i am mentally completely stable, the only things left are brain fog and immense pain in the bones and of course physical fatigue. there is no way i can stand somewhere for an hour without just wanting to lie down on the ground and not move ever again. i am not sleepy tired though, just have no energy, it is also not weakness. without pain meds of course Walking etc. hurts like hell and i am screaming inside while to the outside i look like the pinnacle of health...lol
 
well there was no place for additional ingredients due to Price. it is already too expensive really and the Profit margin is really small.
agmatine i agree with, nitrates and gycerol i don't think would be needed if agmapure is used, the pump in conjunction with pterostilbene would be enough.
i would rather add a rarely used form of carnitine, ubiquinol and 2-3 other ingredients for strength and muscle growth etc. oh one of those would cause so much pump, really all other pump ingredients would become obsolete.

i have a pwo in mind that only Needs 4 non-stim and 3-4 stim ingredients and would be not only the strongest stim but also anabolic. i am not sure yet if the ingredients i have in mind are legal to use in the EU yet though. even companies i am communicating with do not know this and are asking me...lol
 
Sounds interesting.

Some of the previously mentioned ingredients do not need to be taken PWO -eg creatine, tmg, Mg - they would work equally well if taken any time of day. Creatine uptake would even be improved post workout.

Personally I workout in the evening - so I keep stims to a minimum. Just my 3-5 cups of coffee am.
 
well chuck, sulbutiamine crosses the blood brain barrier very well, i am unsure if thiamin does this and to what degree. nobody Needs 25.000mcg methylcobalamine either in theory, but some studies have shown that daily injections if this amount can heal nerve damage.

i will read up on the moa some more and see how sulbutiamine works on and interacts with several neurotransmitters, besides some reports of increased dopamine Levels.that can't be it though as excessive dopamine makes me paranoid and it feels a lot different to me. then again there are all the different receptor types and other interactions, for example l-tyrosine makes me feel not that great while dl-phenylalanine does, which is due to increased enkephalins in combination with dopamine and norepinephrine.
 
redman24 said:
well chuck, sulbutiamine crosses the blood brain barrier very well, i am unsure if thiamin does this and to what degree. nobody Needs 25.000mcg methylcobalamine either in theory, but some studies have shown that daily injections if this amount can heal nerve damage.

i will read up on the moa some more and see how sulbutiamine works on and interacts with several neurotransmitters, besides some reports of increased dopamine Levels.that can't be it though as excessive dopamine makes me paranoid and it feels a lot different to me. then again there are all the different receptor types and other interactions, for example l-tyrosine makes me feel not that great while dl-phenylalanine does, which is due to increased enkephalins in combination with dopamine and norepinephrine.
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600mg of a B-Vit is a lot. Its like how multis contain some big ass dose of B-5, and there are studies that show any amount over 30-40mg is counter productive. B-12 is different because B12 is a methy donner.
 
redman24 said:
for example l-tyrosine makes me feel not that great while dl-phenylalanine does, which is due to increased enkephalins in combination with dopamine and norepinephrine.
Click to expand...

yeah, not sure why bc i dont repond to tyrosine, but same dose of DL-Ph will put you in a good mood. Sometimes when this happens, it means the amino has an effect on the body in its absorbed form, not only what it is converted to, bc they both convert to dopamine.
 
well the d-form of phenylalanine basically inhibits the Degradation of Endorphins, so you get a mood boost and pain relief. Endorphine=ENDOgenous mORPHINE

i am sure the the pharmaceutical Company that made the arcalion with 600mg sulbutiamine knew what they were doing. it just doesn't act like other forms of b1.
if you want i will look up some Research to Show what it does in the brain

some People get rid of acne using 5-10 grams of b5 btw. somehow vitamins in megadoses do strange things sometimes.
 
redman24 said:
well the d-form of phenylalanine basically inhibits the Degradation of Endorphins, so you get a mood boost and pain relief. Endorphine=ENDOgenous mORPHINE

i am sure the the pharmaceutical Company that made the arcalion with 600mg sulbutiamine knew what they were doing. it just doesn't act like other forms of b1.
if you want i will look up some Research to Show what it does in the brain

some People get rid of acne using 5-10 grams of b5 btw. somehow vitamins in megadoses do strange things sometimes.
Click to expand...

I know sulbutamine well and how it works. I was just saying, when the smoke clears its B1. Yeah they get ride of acne with it, but B5's main purpose
in the body isnt acne relief.

Anyway I'm sure 600mg by itself is whatever dose the decided was correct for whatever result they intended its use for. I just think, for a supplement
and for its desired effects thats high. I know people think more is better, but thats high.I know sulbutiamine is habit forming (addictive) with withdrawal symptoms from people who use that high a dose over an extended amount of time, esp if they are bipolar or get depressed often.
 
well People with neurochemically caused mental illness should really not be taking anything that messes with neurotransmitters, especially dopamine when you speak of bipolar People. i happen to know a lot about the causes of mental illness and increasing dopamine could easily lead to psychotic symptoms.
really anything stim heavy should be avoided unless on antipsychotics, then it could be alright, but one has to Monitor rhe changes carefully.
i think even tyrosine or dlpa could be a risk. you never know, as People respond so differently.
 
redman24 said:
well People with neurochemically caused mental illness should really not be taking anything that messes with neurotransmitters, especially dopamine when you speak of bipolar People. i happen to know a lot about the causes of mental illness and increasing dopamine could easily lead to psychotic symptoms.
really anything stim heavy should be avoided unless on antipsychotics, then it could be alright, but one has to Monitor rhe changes carefully.
i think even tyrosine or dlpa could be a risk. you never know, as People respond so differently.
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Yeah but I don't mean a "illness" a lot of people are bipolar and have depression, esp here in the US. Yeah I've read some people being sensitive to 200mg of DL _Phy, but again everyone inst AnabolicMinds, hardcore or die tryin supplement users.
 
but bipolar disorder and clinical Depression are neurochemical imbalances, therefore illnesses of the brain, as defined by psychiatry.
or are you speaking of People who are not Aware of their conditions?

People with real bipolar disorder not on medication would likely suffer psychotic episodes sooner or later.

i think maybe some People think of mood swings as bipolar or low mood as Depression, but the real clinical illnesses definitely require medication and one would most likely not be able to live a normal life with These conditions.
 
I mean bipolar and depressed without being to the point where they go 2 the doctor. For every person seen for being bipolar there is prob 200 that have bipolar tendencies that don't get seen.
 
then you are speaking more of personality disorders which are much more common than once assumed and classify them into categories like a depressive type or a Person with mood swings etc.

somebody with a real bipolar disorder would not live his life without seeing a dr. as would someone with clinical Depression because sooner or later they would end up in a mental Institution.

i think it is very important, and i realized this through knowing several People with such Problems, that there is a huge difference between having Depression and "Feeling depressed" for example. because of this large parts of Society still think mental disorders aren't all that bad and one can just deal with it.
the reality is, People who really have These illnesses are Born with them and Need to be on medication or else will not be able to function.

that is why it is important for me not to use the medical terminology when applied to someone with some mood swings or depressive tendencies.
don't get me wrong, i am not trying to argue, just saying that somebody who really has These conditions cannot live his life hiding them and making their own living etc. those conditions are amongst the worst you can have and untreated can turn into full blown psychosis which is worse than any other illness i could imagine (i have seen it and it is painful to watch someone go through that Kind of hell).
 
i am aquainted with one of, if not the best psychiatrist in Germany. he is also a neurologist, neuroscientist, psychotherpist, forensic psychiatrist and addiction counsellor. 67 years old and retired, still works in Research and treats patients, working 12-14 hours a day.
in his time the psychiatrists still tried the medications they prescribed their patients on themselves and didn't do everything by the book.
he treats People so they feel better and not necessarily by what he calls what the "statistics" say.

he also said he never met anyone who can tell the effects of medicines apart so well and tell which one is doing what and effecting what neurotrnsmitter etc. and what they feel like. he even asked if i could imagine counselling People on what medications they are on and find out which ones would be best for them, as i can usually tell by someones behaviour which type of neurotransmitters they may be lacking or have too much of.

i am treated for a neurological condition and someone Close to me is treated for psychosis and Depression. he is also convinced i can better decide what this Person Needs than another psychiatrist, as i know her better than anyone else and he lets me decide most of our Treatment protocols, only making suggestions and asking me for the cause of the idea i mention to him. then after explaining it, he has mostly agreed that the ideas make a lot of sense.

he also admits that neuroscience still knows very Little and People just going by the "statistics" do not consider the Patient individually and it is a Problem that they think they know what the Patient Needs better than the Patient himself, as it is not like different fields of medicine, where the dr. actually knows what is going on and the Patient doesn't. in this case dr.s are prescribing medicines of which they do not know how they affect someone practically and rarely listen when a Patient says that it doesn't agree with him. they just say to give it more time, because due to the statistics...

but in reality nobody can look into the patients neurochemical Status and rarely a real diagnosis can be made, you will get 5,6,7 diagnosises during your life maybe and most meds have a fairly low Response rate so it is important to include the Patient in the decision making.

for example Opioids have a definite place in psychiatry but are completely overlooked due to fear of dependancy. not that other meds do not have side effects and negative withdrawal symptoms...
but a lot of Depression is not due to Serotonin deficiency or lack of drive due to lack of dopamine or norepinephrine. actually a lot of Depression is cause by endogenous lack of Endorphins and also i have not seen any medication that can stop a psychotic Episode yet as fast as oxycodone can. you could of course sedate the Patient to the Point he can barely move but not remove his symptoms. Opioids have stopped psychotic episodes within minutes and i have witnessed this many times.

also People are overly afraid of benzodiazepines, eventhough if tapered correctly can be used for years without any dangerous withdrawal and they are, along with Opioids, the only substances that work as good as almost all of the time.

all other meds take time and you cannot predict the result, it could even make things worse. except for venlafaxine and duloxetine which work immediately but could lead to psychosis in a predisposed Patient and should therefore be used along with a Benzodiazepine during the adjustment period.

pure ssris help very few and psychotherapy helps only in Addition to meds or for People who are not neurochemically ill but simply have a crisis in their lives.

wether one likes me or not, i have a lot of knowledge on this subject and a very good feel for what would be helpful and what wouldn't, while also being able to tell that most psychiatrists act superior to the Patient, who is often in a state where he can barely defend himself so he just follows what he is told, Feeling misunderstood and being prescribed medicine that possibly doesn't help his condition at all.
 
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