kelso312
Member
Why iodized salt and not just Wilson's protocol with T3?
How would one know they had a conversion problem when using the salt method ?
Hypothyroidism and supplements!
- Thread starter bb333
- Start date
Why iodized salt and not just Wilson's protocol with T3?
How would one know they had a conversion problem when using the salt method ?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I have no idea what you are talking about. It's just salt (or tiny amounts of an iodine tab) to replenish possibly low levels. Why would I want to take a Thyroid Hormone if all I need is a little iodine? If it doesn't work, you can move on to more complicated shjt.
kelso312
Member
I thought you had more thyroid knowledge based on your posting. I guess that is why you did not answer my question about conversion issues. nevermind.
Driven2lift
Legend
I'm sure he does; keep in mind this is the supplement section and not a place to discuss hormone use.
That in mind, his answer was detailed and appropriate
Conversion issues in general should be tested for by a professional, not guessed at and then messed around with. (Even if an online blog "had your answer")
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I'm knowledgeable in the fact that I had depleted Iodine with corresponding low body-temps and brought myself back to 98.6 by experimenting on myself with larger (but still sane) doses of supplemental Iodine.
I'm basically talking about using natural food/minerals to fix something - I found the T3 mention odd, but that's just me.
kelso312
Member
I'm sure he does; keep in mind this is the supplement section and not a place to discuss hormone use.
That in mind, his answer was detailed and appropriate
Conversion issues in general should be tested for by a professional, not guessed at and then messed around with. (Even if an online blog "had your answer")
Giving your body anything that can effect your thyroid including iodine can have both positively and negatively effects. Just because iodine supplementation worked for one person does not mean it could not adversely effect another.
So selenium which is a natural supplement should not be used because it effects conversion? Unless a doctor is involved....Newsflash. Most endos don't treat conversion issues, they treat lab numbers.
I was not advocating hormone use, if i was going to do that I would have said "Screw that man just take T3"....
After i was diagnosed with thyroid issues, I read alot of Blogs, endo journals, and research papers.
Apparently this a forum for promoting supplements is a much better place to get information about thyroid related issues than a blog compiled by people who have thyroid problems and treated them successfully.
Sorry if you did not like my post Driven2lift. Thanks for keeping the thread safe.:beerchug:
Driven2lift
Legend
Just re-clarifying the safe topics here, not like I reported it or anything. If anything I'd enjoy if you created a thread on it specifically even, in the correct sub-forum.
My endo did test for and does treat conversion issues.
He actually is easily one of the most invested endo's for the metabolism and effects of thyroid hormones in North America, his specialization. He still seems to "tour" the US from time to time as a speaker.
I wasn't even sent to him for my thyroid but he got excited when he saw that on my chart (pre-existing hypo) and he has been my contact on that front since.
My endo did test for and does treat conversion issues.
He actually is easily one of the most invested endo's for the metabolism and effects of thyroid hormones in North America, his specialization. He still seems to "tour" the US from time to time as a speaker.
I wasn't even sent to him for my thyroid but he got excited when he saw that on my chart (pre-existing hypo) and he has been my contact on that front since.
kelso312
Member
I recently fired mine and am playing roulette to find a new one in network. I had another Dr. that has known me for a long time order bloodwork that I tried to get my last endo to do. Because lab TSH was in range he sent me off like I was fine.
Just trying to ask questions and compare what I have came across with others. And honestly, I did not even realize this was the supplements forum and that it was forbidden to mention stuff like that.
Just trying to ask questions and compare what I have came across with others. And honestly, I did not even realize this was the supplements forum and that it was forbidden to mention stuff like that.
Driven2lift
Legend
If you were displaying symptoms that is terrible that your other values weren't tested initially...
I know there are differences in some treatment protocols between here (Canada) and the US but that is weak. I assume you requested the additional tests, why did he say he wouldn't order them?
And hey no problem I see you are newer to AM just making sure something is said so it didn't go too far
I know there are differences in some treatment protocols between here (Canada) and the US but that is weak. I assume you requested the additional tests, why did he say he wouldn't order them?
And hey no problem I see you are newer to AM just making sure something is said so it didn't go too far
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Doesn't mean it will either. And we're talking doses that are well below the WHO's daily TUL and would make a Japanese citizen point and laugh. Basically Pregnant Woman dosages. When I had my body temp issues - I too "...read alot of Blogs, endo journals, and research papers". In my case, I solved the problem. EEMMV (Everyone Else's Mileage May Vary).
pbandy1
Member
you were taking like 1 mg per day right?
I believe a recent study on Japanese iodine intake found it to be about 1-3 mg on average, way below the 15+ mg previously reported.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
I can't remember exactly what I did way in the beginning - I know for a fact that I started with 25mg/day for a while (2x12.5mg AM/PM). As I researched more, I started cutting back. I never saw 15mg+ for any Asian country - I did see the 3mg/day, and IIRC the WHO is either 2-3mg TUL - but it's been a while.
If you take a multivitamin every day, you are taking 1,050mg of Iodine per week. And that's at the male RDI of 150mcg/day. Double that for pregnant women. Does anyone *really* think that adding 1 or 2mg extra, per week - is going to send them into a downward spiral of Hashimoto's?
I don't know what it is about 'just Iodine' that sends people into 'Chicken Little' mode - you never hear anyone say "and for God's sake, don't eat too much fish! A Gallon of Milk a Day will give you Hashimoto's!" Then you ask them about Bromine/Brominated materials and they look at you cross-eyed.
Try it - or don't, it's your body. Too many Docs just want to slap you on Synthroid.
pbandy1
Member
agreed, increasing iodine by just a bit can be an easy fix if the problem is iodine-related. I personally supplement with 225 mcg potassium iodide daily (Pure Encapsulations).
Iodine intake is a funny thing. Work by Zimmerman et al suggest that intake over 500 mcg results in high thyroid volume (not something you necessarily want, think goiter) - but higher intakes compared to lower intakes are associated with a lower thyroid volume IF that iodine intake is in the 200-250 mcg.
mcc23
Active member
Let's say hypothetically one's thyroid issues ARE indeed stemming from iodine deficiency and they take measures to replete their levels through supplementation with iodized salt. About how long could they expect it to take before they would notice an alleviation in symptoms? i.e. brain fog, fatigue, lethargy, etc. I understand there's likely no clear cut answer that applies to everyone, but let's say you had to give a round about answer.
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Salt would take forever if you are depleted enough to barely get into the 97's by mid-day - IMO. I don't want to link to another competing forum, so put this, exactly, into Google:
T-Nation Thyroid Basics Explained T Replacement Forum
Read the latest comments from Bill Roberts, then the rest of the thread.
pbandy1
Member
not long at all - once your urinary iodine is in the range of 150-250 μg/L you are considered adequate. I'm not a big fan of iodized salt - I just like the taste of sea salt or himalayan salt and just supplement with 225 mcg daily.
mcc23
Active member
You say it shouldn't take long but The_Old_Guy seems to think otherwise. I picked up iodized salt and am considering purchasing the iodine supplement he recommended. Also, why not just take T3 at a low dose? Fwiw I had added some iodized salt to my shakes the other day and my temp was up around normal. Let's say I'm on the right track. How long before alleviation in the other symptoms?
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
IMO - Use Salt religiously... but also use something else (Like IO Plus).
Invalid Link Removed
Chloride is a Halogen - competes with Iodine (as does Bromine etc.. See: )
kelso312
Member
Yea this stuff is everywhere.
Tap water had flouride added to it still and also is probably chlorinated at some point to kill bacteria before it reaches your house. Your skin takes in these elements every time you shower. I got a shower filter attachment from home depot for about 30 bucks and change the filter every 4 months. Besides pulling some of that crap out of the shower water, it helped clear up my mild sweat acne on my back.
Bromide is in a bunch of stuff you would not suspect. Almost all bread contains bromine in the form of Potassium Bromate. It is also an ingredient in many artificially flavors citrus beverages like Mt Dew, some flavors of Gatoraid etc... as an emulsifier.
Anyone have any experience with a supplement based detox protocol to aid in elimination of these substances that compete with iodine in the body?
mcc23
Active member
Can either of you comment on the length of time I should expect it to take for brain fog, fatigue, and lethargy symptoms to subside? I've already noticed improvements in body temperature with iodized salt but no change in the aforementioned symptoms. Thanks!
kelso312
Member
I can't comment on timeframes. I would guess that it will take until you consistently keep a temp near 98.6 degrees.
Even then it might take a few weeks of keeping that level stable for your body to rebalance itself.
What are your temp readings throughout the day?
mcc23
Active member
I tested it first thing this morning and it was 97.2. It's 2:45 pm here and I just tested it again. 97.4.
Finger tips and toes are cold.
I'm considering purchasing the iodine supplement that The_Old_Guy suggested
pbandy1
Member
Let us know how it goes. I will let you know that for my lab tests, when I supplemented with 1 mg iodine daily (LEF Sea-Iodine), my TSH went up to 2.8 mIU/L. When I decreased it to just the 225 mcg potassium iodide product I mentioned, it went down to 1.2 mIU/L in about a month, so your thyroid adapts quickly.
If iodine supplementation does not work for you in terms of blood tests / body temp, keep in mind that subclinical hypothyroidism can be caused by stress. CRH hypersecretion in the CNS and periphery (as well as hypercortisolism) can lead to inhibition of thyroid axes (as well as growth hormone and gonadal axes).
mcc23
Active member
If you don't mind me asking, had you had any prior issues with fatigue, brain fog, lethargy, etc?
pbandy1
Member
yes but I believe it is due to a stressful job on midnights hours (9 pm to 5 am), not anything related to iodine in particular. Now some of my symptoms may be due to subclinical hypothyroidism (reverse T3 a bit high, total T3 a bit low but both still in range), but as I stated earlier, stress hormones that are consistently elevated can cause a host of issues such as insomnia, hyperarousal, inhibition of BDNF, decrease in free test, loss of hippocampal volume, etc. The disturbance in sleep pattern can be the worst because it is just a vicious cycle...
Anyways, I'm going off a bit off topic but there's my answer.
kelso312
Member
mcc23 What other hypo symptoms do you have apart from the lethargy, fatigue and brain fog?
Some of the ones I noticed- that only became apparent when I got my levels up were:
Cold hands and feet (which you indicated you have)
Extra skin on bottoms of feet... like really thick
The hair on the outer portion of my eyebrows seemed to get thinner
My fingernails have really think vertical lines going from top to bottom
I started to always feel tightness in certain muscles which I wrote off as being related to bad posture
Feeling the need to crack my back all the time
Just curious what else you noticed and if you had any in common with me?
Some of the ones I noticed- that only became apparent when I got my levels up were:
Cold hands and feet (which you indicated you have)
Extra skin on bottoms of feet... like really thick
The hair on the outer portion of my eyebrows seemed to get thinner
My fingernails have really think vertical lines going from top to bottom
I started to always feel tightness in certain muscles which I wrote off as being related to bad posture
Feeling the need to crack my back all the time
Just curious what else you noticed and if you had any in common with me?
pbandy1
Member
Actually some of those symptoms I have as well; cold hands and I don't seem to have very good blood flow anymore, even though I'm hydrated and eating well. Also have been going to the PT for generalized low back pain that doesn't seem to be getting better, and the low Back pain did not seem to stem from any particular injury.
Edit: also, I can't seem to break a sweat very easily in workouts, yet I am constantly sweating from my armpit area to the point where I don't even where light colored shirts anymore.
The more I talk about this the more I seem to think I have some type of anxiety/depression issue. :/
kelso312
Member
Thyroid is related to that as well. P Docs commonly prescribe T3 to patients with depression.
Plus by the sound of your last post you sound like your adrenals are probably burned out.
Have you read anything about supplementing for over/under methylation (MTHFR)?
mcc23
Active member
Those are the main ones along with the blood flow issues the other member posted about. And yes to the cold hands and feet.
mcc23
Active member
I've had the blood flow issues as well.
kelso312
Member
Sorry if I missed them. I sort of jumped in at the half way point.
pbandy1
Member
Yes I do have the MTHFR genetic mutation and supplement with 400mcg l-methyl folate daily, in addition to green leafy veggies and broccoli. My last serum B12 was super high so that is good as well.
kelso312
Member
I am reading about that. It is one of those things that has such a broad nonspecific set symptoms that anyone could think they have it.
Am getting bloods done including RBC Folate and B12 sometime soon.
How much was the testing to confirm it?
mcc23
Active member
I've looked into the adrenals extensively in years past. I had a salivary cortisol test done and it showed depressed DHEA levels. Diurnal cortisol levels followed the normal 24hr fluctuations but were slightly on the lower end throughout.
kelso312
Member
Where did you test your cortisol? Did you go to a lab or do a mail in kit?
mcc23
Active member
One of those mail in kits
mcc23
Active member
Diagnos-techs.
kelso312
Member
Invictus rocks. I love the smell of Salvo in the morning.
So what is you thinking with Invictus? That running it will allow the adrenals to 'heal' themselves?
bb333
Well-known member
I expect everything and anything! Usually with similar products, nolvadren xt, erase pro, I always achieved good results in terms of body recomposition. Having little body fat, below 14%, when using these products, physical changes, and what I like. Now I add that I am doing a "mini cut", accompanied by a training session (4 times a week) very intense, and massive (so most physical and mental stress), I was looking for a specific product to address the "training stress." .. already intact with protein powder (I consider food, and no extra charge) ... Other supplements for now I have abandoned them, I am dedicated to this discussion of the thyroid. When I have solved I will try again to buy products such Ignit3 (about me works great), and other specific (I would try the products of Evomuse), to lose a little more fat and dedicate myself to a dry and harmonious physical, as I like it. Invcitus I hope you treat me well, I will end my personal account
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Isn't this what we have been talking about for the last week?
You have to determine what you want to try - based on all the data presented so far, both here, and in links given. I have been doing an extra 2mg/week for years (on top of a multi, salting everything, and food), so you can start there. The lower you use, the longer it may take, depending on where you are now. If I were you (and I was) - I would seriously have no problem doing 1mg on M/W/F and monitoring your waking, and 2PM temps with an ovulation thermometer. Give it a couple/few months, and adjust from there.So get a pill cutter and quarter those 12.5's - then cut *those* in half with a razor blade = ~1mg (1.5625mg if you are perfect - you won't be, you'll lose some, LOL - it isn't a precise process.).
mcc23
Active member
I just got the iodine tabs in the mail today. Is there any harm in taking say half of a tablet at first and then taper down to a maintenance dose of 2mg/week in the ensuing weeks?Isn't this what we have been talking about for the last week?
So get a pill cutter and quarter those 12.5's - then cut *those* in half with a razor blade = ~1mg (1.5625mg if you are perfect - you won't be, you'll lose some, LOL - it isn't a precise process.).
mcc23
Active member
The_Old_Guy
The bottle says take 1 tablet 1-4 times daily ?
The bottle says take 1 tablet 1-4 times daily ?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
This is good and bad advice at the same time. T4 for the most part is the best option, but there is the reverse t3 cases. Where their t4 converts to rt3 more than t3. Making the best option is to not use t4 at all, until you eliminated rt3 and slowly begin to bring back t4 and slowly wheen of t3; if possible. This is why blood work on a so important and is only one of hundreds of reasons why thyroid treatment might not work
The_Old_Guy
Well-known member
Dude - do what your rank can handle. You have from: 0mg (don't take it) - up to 50mg/day on the bottle. I've already posted everything I did, and currently do... as well as links to what others feel is appropriate. AGAIN: I would cut them and take ~1mg on M/W/F. Bill Roberts recommended no more than 2mg/day, and that is about what a boatload of Japanese consume per day with the various sea-weeds as well. Or modify *that* and do 2mg EOD, or M/W/F... I don't know what else to say - all your research should have you pinning down a protocol you are comfortable with by now?
mcc23
Active member
Yup you're right. Thanks