Huperzine and Galantamine

muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

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I recently came across an interesting study on the effects of acute cholinesterase inhibitors (huperzine-A and galantamine) in healthy adults (18-38 years).

Doses used for huperzine were 100mcg and 200mcg.
Doses used for galantamine were 4mg and 8mg.

As for the results:

Huperzine 100 μg reached peak AChE-inhibiting activity (83% of pre-drug activity) 90 min following administration...
Huperzine-200 μg reached maximal AChE-inhibiting activity 30 min post-dose (72% of pre-drug activity)...
Thereafter (starting at 150 min post-dose), both Hup-100 and Hup-200 maintained similar levels of AChE-inhibiting activity across subsequent sessions...

Galantamine also dose-dependently inhibited AChE activity...
Gal-4 reached peak inhibition (85% of pre-drug activity) at 150 min post-dose...
Gal-8 reached peak inhibition at 210 min post-dose (75% of pre-drug activity)...
With the exception of the 1330 h [3.5 h post-dose] sampling session, AChE activity in both galantamine doses was similarly inhibited... and significantly lower than Pla across all other post-drug sessions...
So it appears that both huperzine and galantamine are effective AChE inhibitors in healthy non-elderly adults, which is nice, but:

Despite rapid inhibition of RBC AChE (and a presumed increase in central cholinergic activity), neither huperzine A nor galantamine impacted neurobehavioral performance.
The lack of neurobehavioral efficacy in this study was not entirely unexpected. Our subjects consisted of healthy, non-sleep-deprived young adults. In addition, although practice effects were evident on some tasks (discussed next), in general, performance levels on all tasks were high...

Results from prior studies indicating pro-cognitive effects, taken together with our findings, indicate that in otherwise normal, healthy adults with intact central cholinergic functioning, AChE-inhibiting compounds do not exert cognition-enhancing effects. Also, the results presented here indicate that these compounds do not interfere with the normally high levels of neurobehavioral functioning seen in this cohort...
Physiological and neurobehavioral effects of cholinesterase inhibition in healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI

What does everyone think about this study? Do you think that AChE inhibitors are viable nootropics in healthy non-elderly adults? Perhaps only during times of sleep deprivation (other AChE inhibitors have been found to have pro-cognitive effects in healthy young adults only during times of sleep deprivation in subjects who were "behaviorally vulnerable to sleep loss")? Or perhaps as an addition to a nootropic stack (likely containing a choline source)?
 
hewhoisripped

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I find that quite plausible. However, there are many factors to be explored: stress, physical exertion, chronic sleep deprivation and yes, choline supplementation. Maybe one of these factors, or a combination of, provides a scenario in which it could be beneficial. Unfortunately, as is usually the case, we will probably never have good data on the small subset of the population that is considered "healthy" but submits itself to stressors or exogenous supplementation.

Personally, I have used galantamine (from Antaeus) for sleep, and I do feel it improves my dreams' vividness. Does this mean I spend more time in REM and slow wave sleep? I have no clue, but I'm willing to take the bet.
 
muscleupcrohn

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I find that quite plausible. However, there are many factors to be explored: stress, physical exertion, chronic sleep deprivation and yes, choline supplementation. Maybe one of these factors, or a combination of, provides a scenario in which it could be beneficial. Unfortunately, as is usually the case, we will probably never have good data on the small subset of the population that is considered "healthy" but submits itself to stressors or exogenous supplementation.

Personally, I have used galantamine (from Antaeus) for sleep, and I do feel it improves my dreams' vividness. Does this mean I spend more time in REM and slow wave sleep? I have no clue, but I'm willing to take the bet.
Good points. I'm on my phone now, but the full text of the study did show that, while supplementation wasn't associated with improved performance, AChE was inversely correlated with performance (on at least 3 of the 4 tests/parameters if I recall correctly) among the subjects as a whole.

Additionally, the study mentioned that perhaps cognitive benefits would have been noted if the tests had been more difficult/challenging. A different (rat) study noted:
AChE activity is higher in the cerebral cortex of groups that have been trained and tested on more difficult problems than in those given easier problems. An experiment in which littermates were either trained on a difficult problem or were untrained reported that the trained rats developed significantly higher cortical AChE than their untrained littermates
Maybe AChE inhibitors could be useful any time AChE is elevated (which means possibly during strenuous mental activity for healthy young adults).
 
muscleupcrohn

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I haven't used huperzine in a while, but I do remember taking it on days I had exams in Calc III, and I think it may have helped.

What do you think about using huperzine daily and cycling? The only study I'm aware of in healthy, non-elderly people was 4 weeks in duration (although subjects were "complaining of memory inadequacy").
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10678121
 
kboxer7

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Hup-a has definitely had a positive impact on my cognitive function and clarity at work.

Granted, I am most often sleep deprived and/or overextended mentally and physically....but aren't we all these days?
 
muscleupcrohn

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Hup-a has definitely had a positive impact on my cognitive function and clarity at work.

Granted, I am most often sleep deprived and/or overextended mentally and physically....but aren't we all these days?
Good point, haha. I've been taking it again recently and enjoying it.
 
haiz69

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Hup-a has definitely had a positive impact on my cognitive function and clarity at work.

Granted, I am most often sleep deprived and/or overextended mentally and physically....but aren't we all these days?
Valid point!

I feel like between school, work, and working out/researching, I'm always slightly sleep deprived. Maybe that's why I always note a benefit from these nootropics.
 
kboxer7

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Valid point!

I feel like between school, work, and working out/researching, I'm always slightly sleep deprived. Maybe that's why I always note a benefit from these nootropics.
Have you tried anything with Galant in it?

The galant in El1xir really comes off quite powerful. For me it lasts a lot longer and at a greater strength than Hup-A. Its a noticeable feel imo.
 
haiz69

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Have you tried anything with Galant in it?

The galant in El1xir really comes off quite powerful. For me it lasts a lot longer and at a greater strength than Hup-A. Its a noticeable feel imo.
It's funny you say that. Galant is one of the few I haven't tried. Recently been experimenting with Selank and Semax. Very interested compounds. Selank is particularly awesome.
 
ELROCK

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It's funny you say that. Galant is one of the few I haven't tried. Recently been experimenting with Selank and Semax. Very interested compounds. Selank is particularly awesome.
I have both selank and semax just haven't gotten around to mixing it for a nasal spray. Are you using them by nasal spray or sub q? How are the effects?
 
booneman77

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I've used very few noots, but SNS Huperzine-A is one that I have tried (albiet only briefly) and quite enjoyed. Have not had the chance to try galantamine (at least not solo, pretty sure its been in a few pre's I've sampled)
 
kboxer7

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I've used very few noots, but SNS Huperzine-A is one that I have tried (albiet only briefly) and quite enjoyed. Have not had the chance to try galantamine (at least not solo, pretty sure its been in a few pre's I've sampled)
I like SNS Hup-a and have a couple bottles laying around as well : )

Galant is pretty expensive tbh, so it doesn't get seen as much in supps these days. If I had to make a crude comparison, I'd say that Galant is prescription strength Hup-a.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Have you tried anything with Galant in it?

The galant in El1xir really comes off quite powerful. For me it lasts a lot longer and at a greater strength than Hup-A. Its a noticeable feel imo.
I don't know for sure, as the only time I've used galantamine is in ELIX1R, but the stack I've been running lately (which includes huperzine) seems to last a lot longer than ELIX1R does for me (although this is absolutely not an accurate comparison between huperzine and galantamine, as there are a plethora of other variables/ingredients at play). That's not a knock on ELIX1R though; I'm just saying that I REALLY like my stack :)

I'll have to pick up some galantamine and take it in place of my huperzine to see how the two compare directly.
I like SNS Hup-a and have a couple bottles laying around as well : )

Galant is pretty expensive tbh, so it doesn't get seen as much in supps these days. If I had to make a crude comparison, I'd say that Galant is prescription strength Hup-a.
I get that we're all entitled to our personal opinions, but the research in no way suggests that, in healthy non-elderly adults, galantamine is anywhere near "prescription strength Hup-a," (I'm assuming you mean that it's that much stronger?) especially at the doses employed in ELIX1R (4mg), with 100mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a slightly greater degree than 4mg galantamine (huperzine also reached max inhibition 60 minutes faster than galantamine), and 200mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a greater degree than 4mg (and even 8mg) galantamine, and reaching max inhibition 120 minutes before gal-4 and 180 minutes before gal-8, and all doses of both inhibiting AChE at the latest time tested (8 hours) (although none of the doses of either supplement actually improved neurobehavioral performance, so there's that...)

Am I missing something here (again, not basing Galantamine or ELIX1R)?
 
haiz69

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I have both selank and semax just haven't gotten around to mixing it for a nasal spray. Are you using them by nasal spray or sub q? How are the effects?
Using nasal spray of both. N-Acetyl-Semax and Regular Selank. Haven't experimented with semax a bunch yet, but selank just improves my overall feelings of well-being, focus, and "smooths out" periods of high stimulant use if that makes sense. I really suggest you give it a shot, especially if you are rocking high doses of stims.
 

avega17

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Just want to come in here and say that I added 80mcg of Huperzine to my stack this past week and can really tell a difference in terms of focus, lasting several hours into the day as well. I have used it once or twice in the past with good results. With the half-life at 24 hours, I will only be taking it 2-3 times a week.

I have yet to try Galantamine, but I do have a bottle of Elix1r that I'm saving for the Fall.
 
Daycrawler

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Just want to come in here and say that I added 80mcg of Huperzine to my stack this past week and can really tell a difference in terms of focus, lasting several hours into the day as well. I have used it once or twice in the past with good results. With the half-life at 24 hours, I will only be taking it 2-3 times a week.

I have yet to try Galantamine, but I do have a bottle of Elix1r that I'm saving for the Fall.
Good idea about the half life. It makes a bottle of SNS Huperzine last forever lol.

If you can tolerate it, Galant is great. I had two experiences where I enjoyed it a lot and the rest I didn't respond well at all.
 
Segansational

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I don't know for sure, as the only time I've used galantamine is in ELIX1R, but the stack I've been running lately (which includes huperzine) seems to last a lot longer than ELIX1R does for me (although this is absolutely not an accurate comparison between huperzine and galantamine, as there are a plethora of other variables/ingredients at play). That's not a knock on ELIX1R though; I'm just saying that I REALLY like my stack :)

I'll have to pick up some galantamine and take it in place of my huperzine to see how the two compare directly.

I get that we're all entitled to our personal opinions, but the research in no way suggests that, in healthy non-elderly adults, galantamine is anywhere near "prescription strength Hup-a," (I'm assuming you mean that it's that much stronger?) especially at the doses employed in ELIX1R (4mg), with 100mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a slightly greater degree than 4mg galantamine (huperzine also reached max inhibition 60 minutes faster than galantamine), and 200mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a greater degree than 4mg (and even 8mg) galantamine, and reaching max inhibition 120 minutes before gal-4 and 180 minutes before gal-8, and all doses of both inhibiting AChE at the latest time tested (8 hours) (although none of the doses of either supplement actually improved neurobehavioral performance, so there's that...)

Am I missing something here (again, not basing Galantamine or ELIX1R)?
I would be interested in hearing your feedback on galantamine solo if you do pick some up. Specifically if you run 8 mg or higher doses, which is what is typical for treating Alzheimers. Based on OPs posted study, do you find that Hup A also kicks in quicker?
 
muscleupcrohn

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I would be interested in hearing your feedback on galantamine solo if you do pick some up. Specifically if you run 8 mg or higher doses, which is what is typical for treating Alzheimers. Based on OPs posted study, do you find that Hup A also kicks in quicker?
I've only used galantamine in ELIX1R so far, which is only 4mg, so I can't really directly compare how fast/strong one is relative to the other. However, huperzine does kick in pretty quickly for me, and I do seem to find that it helps in providing a nice sustained mental stimulation.
 
AndroRage

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I don't know for sure, as the only time I've used galantamine is in ELIX1R, but the stack I've been running lately (which includes huperzine) seems to last a lot longer than ELIX1R does for me (although this is absolutely not an accurate comparison between huperzine and galantamine, as there are a plethora of other variables/ingredients at play). That's not a knock on ELIX1R though; I'm just saying that I REALLY like my stack :)

I'll have to pick up some galantamine and take it in place of my huperzine to see how the two compare directly.

I get that we're all entitled to our personal opinions, but the research in no way suggests that, in healthy non-elderly adults, galantamine is anywhere near "prescription strength Hup-a," (I'm assuming you mean that it's that much stronger?) especially at the doses employed in ELIX1R (4mg), with 100mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a slightly greater degree than 4mg galantamine (huperzine also reached max inhibition 60 minutes faster than galantamine), and 200mcg huperzine inhibiting AChE to a greater degree than 4mg (and even 8mg) galantamine, and reaching max inhibition 120 minutes before gal-4 and 180 minutes before gal-8, and all doses of both inhibiting AChE at the latest time tested (8 hours) (although none of the doses of either supplement actually improved neurobehavioral performance, so there's that...)

Am I missing something here (again, not basing Galantamine or ELIX1R)?
do you think it would be synergistic to stack them. Like 200mcg of Huperzine A with a small amount of Galatamine? Can’t find any info on the stack being synergistic or not.
 

N2ofusion

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do you think it would be synergistic to stack them. Like 200mcg of Huperzine A with a small amount of Galatamine? Can’t find any info on the stack being synergistic or not.
old thread, but I would say no. Too much Choline causes its own set of problems
 
muscleupcrohn

muscleupcrohn

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do you think it would be synergistic to stack them. Like 200mcg of Huperzine A with a small amount of Galatamine? Can’t find any info on the stack being synergistic or not.
I would say no, or at least there's no reason to even try IMO. Considering research shows they're both quite potent/effective at inhibiting AChE at low/moderate doses, I don't see why you'd need any "synergism" to potentiate this inhibitory effect. Especially since this inhibition seems to be more conditionally beneficial (perhaps during stressful and mentally demanding tasks) than inherently useful in all circumstances (as evidenced by this inhibition not inherently improving performance in all circumstances), I don't think you would really need to inhibit AChE beyond what you can do with a reasonable dose of either alone. I'd rather add a low/moderate dose of a choline source to a low/moderate of an AChE-I than mega-dose or combine AChE-Is if I'm being honest, that way you can increase acetylcholine levels from both ends; the AChE-I prevents it from being broken down, while the choline source directly provides more. I'd think this would be superior to simply mega-dosing AChE-Is.
 

madmuscle24

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I recently came across an interesting study on the effects of acute cholinesterase inhibitors (huperzine-A and galantamine) in healthy adults (18-38 years).

Doses used for huperzine were 100mcg and 200mcg.
Doses used for galantamine were 4mg and 8mg.

As for the results:



So it appears that both huperzine and galantamine are effective AChE inhibitors in healthy non-elderly adults, which is nice, but:



Physiological and neurobehavioral effects of cholinesterase inhibition in healthy adults. - PubMed - NCBI

What does everyone think about this study? Do you think that AChE inhibitors are viable nootropics in healthy non-elderly adults? Perhaps only during times of sleep deprivation (other AChE inhibitors have been found to have pro-cognitive effects in healthy young adults only during times of sleep deprivation in subjects who were "behaviorally vulnerable to sleep loss")? Or perhaps as an addition to a nootropic stack (likely containing a choline source)?
I have never gotten anything out of These two.
 
thebigt

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@muscleupcrohn

haven't seen you on here for awhile...you ok?
 
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