How to get the most out of test boosters

bill86

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So, it’s been a very long time since I’ve supplemented with anything other than some standard preworkouts.

I recently grabbed some DAA and some Bullnox. I also picked up some KSM-66, Boron and Tongkat Ali.

My question is, should I “pre-cycle” (sorry, don’t know how else to phrase it) the DAA with some boron and/or Tongkat in order to “prime” (sorry, again, lol) my system for the DAA to help boost free test levels? The way I see it, a boost in test is pointless if it’s bound test.

Would it make sense to take the Boron (6mg per day) and Tongkat (300mg per day) for a couple of weeks prior to the DAA and Bullnox (I realize that Bullnox is a prop blend, so who knows if I’m getting a lot out of it) to try and help with the increase of free test?

Where would the KSM-66 play in?

Also, any suggestions on whether to take these on an empty stomach? I couldn’t find much when I searched.

Any other suggestions, such as dosing, welcomed!

(FWIW, I also grabbed some Epi-Plex, but I don’t really see how that would play into any of this, but it’s been many years since I researched any of this stuff. I just remember loving Epic years back, and was under the impression that its anabolic effects were apart from test and all that.... I also have some Nolvadex that was prescribed from my doctor and was hoping to incorporate the boron, etc. into using the Nolva in order to try and free up some of the test)

Thanks!
 
Afi140

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I would run all products at the same time. They can be taken with or without food. I would only run the daa for 3 weeks and then continue to run everything else for the remainder of your run.

In the future there are some pretty comprehensive products out there from sns and olympus labs that will do pretty much the same thing but with more elaborate formulas. Kings blood has all of the ingredients you’re taking minus the daa but has furosap and others in its place if you want to check it out the link is below.

 
Smont

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I have a question, what are you looking for from a natural boost in testosterone.

If you actually have low testosterone and your able to boost it up to the Normal range then you might see some results in the gym. You also might get a boost in sex drive.

But if you already have normal test levels then test boosters are not going to help you build any muscle or anything because they cannot boost you past the normal range or boost your levels at all in some cases.

You need supraphysiological test levels to build more then natty muscle and test boosters can't do that.

Now if you know that your free test is low, 6-12mg of boron per day will free up that bound test and that could help. But without knowing if you have low test your kinda just taking a shot in the dark, hoping something works.

I'm just rambling now but does any of that apply to you or do you have a different reasoning for using these things
 
LeanEngineer

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I also noticed that older guys tend to get far greater benifits then young guys do with test boosters, for obvious reasons
Agreed! Natty test boosters seem to yeild better results in older than younger.
 
MikeSumthin

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Save $$ on test boosters and eat better, stay away from alcohol, and crank out some deadlifts...

(If you're younger and have pretty mediocre test levels)
 
bill86

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Thanks for the responses!

I’m 35 and I last had blood work done when I was around 30-32, and my test was just over 400. My doctor wouldn’t do free test, just total test and estrogen. However, I plan on seeing an endo soon that was referred by a friend. My friend has been taking clomid + boron (clomid prescribed by the endo) for about a year now and said he enjoys it, and the blood work shows noticeable increases in his test and free test. Nothing like actual test/AAS would do, but enough to notice a bit of a difference.

My Nolvadex was prescribed to try and treat pre-existing gyno (it didn’t work, I wish he had given me Raoxifene), but I was going to try and use it in a similar manner as my friend is using his clomid until I can get back in with a doctor. My gyno makes me hesitant to try anything stronger than natty boosters and the serm.
 
Smont

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Thanks for the responses!

I’m 35 and I last had blood work done when I was around 30-32, and my test was just over 400. My doctor wouldn’t do free test, just total test and estrogen. However, I plan on seeing an endo soon that was referred by a friend. My friend has been taking clomid + boron (clomid prescribed by the endo) for about a year now and said he enjoys it, and the blood work shows noticeable increases in his test and free test. Nothing like actual test/AAS would do, but enough to notice a bit of a difference.

My Nolvadex was prescribed to try and treat pre-existing gyno (it didn’t work, I wish he had given me Raoxifene), but I was going to try and use it in a similar manner as my friend is using his clomid until I can get back in with a doctor. My gyno makes me hesitant to try anything stronger than natty boosters and the serm.
Ya give it a try, I don't see any reason not to. I would rather try to boost it on my own or fight for real trt then go on long term clomid, clomid is not a particularly friendly drug for men. Especially long term. Some guys do fine with it, but a lot of guys do not prefer it. Even tho 400 is on the low side, it's not considered low so not many Dr. Are going to say trt is Not a option till your bottomed out or below the reference range
 
bill86

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Ya give it a try, I don't see any reason not to. I would rather try to boost it on my own or fight for real trt then go on long term clomid, clomid is not a particularly friendly drug for men. Especially long term. Some guys do fine with it, but a lot of guys do not prefer it. Even tho 400 is on the low side, it's not considered low so not many Dr. Are going to say trt is Not a option till your bottomed out or below the reference range
Yeah, that’s my issue - my doctor wouldn’t do anything with it at 400, so I’d need to see someone else (even the endocrinologist may not, but I also hope to see him before I start anything so that I don’t have artificially high test numbers, even if only modestly higher).

I’m going to run the Nolva since I have it on hand and my research seems to suggest that it might be helpful, especially when paired with something to free up the test. Fingers crossed on some Raloxifene in the future (especially with the studies I’ve seen regarding pre-existing gyno, though it seems to be less helpful for increasing test)

Thanks for the help!

I guess I’ll just run everything at one time.

Back in the day I used to hear about 12-on-12-off for daily dosing of DAA, is there still any truth to that?
 
KvanH

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Yeah, that’s my issue - my doctor wouldn’t do anything with it at 400, so I’d need to see someone else (even the endocrinologist may not, but I also hope to see him before I start anything so that I don’t have artificially high test numbers, even if only modestly higher).

I’m going to run the Nolva since I have it on hand and my research seems to suggest that it might be helpful, especially when paired with something to free up the test. Fingers crossed on some Raloxifene in the future (especially with the studies I’ve seen regarding pre-existing gyno, though it seems to be less helpful for increasing test)

Thanks for the help!

I guess I’ll just run everything at one time.

Back in the day I used to hear about 12-on-12-off for daily dosing of DAA, is there still any truth to that?
I think that 12 days on is based on this one study where subjects test levels rose some for the first 12 days, but then returned quicly back to starting levels. I doubt it was the same 12 days that it took the levels to fall back though, so that 12 days off is just cause' it seems logical or what ever. In another study daa decreased test levels though.. I don't personally think daa is any good, but I can see a use for it for a short time when test levels are lower than normal for some reason, like in pct. I'd rather try M-Test, Sustain Alpha, E Cottonii.
 

aman88

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I think that 12 days on is based on this one study where subjects test levels rose some for the first 12 days, but then returned quicly back to starting levels. I doubt it was the same 12 days that it took the levels to fall back though, so that 12 days off is just cause' it seems logical or what ever. In another study daa decreased test levels though.. I don't personally think daa is any good, but I can see a use for it for a short time when test levels are lower than normal for some reason, like in pct. I'd rather try M-Test, Sustain Alpha, E Cottonii.
what products do you use for e cottonii?
 
barische

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Return the DAA - get cistanche,

get some magnesium for before bed

adequate selenium, zinc intake
Vit D3
 
bill86

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Return the DAA - get cistanche,

get some magnesium for before bed

adequate selenium, zinc intake
Vit D3
I was actually thinking about this earlier - despite not having access to a gym during Covid, I didn’t suffer terrible losses while using dumbbells at home, pull-ups, etc. and wondered why I hadn’t lost as much as I thought I would.... I wonder if there’s a correlation to the fact that I was taking a lot of supplements to prepare my body in case I did catch Covid. Some of those included 5,000iu vitamin d (I’m very deficient, per blood work, but am now up to around 50-51), 50mg zinc daily, magnesium daily, selenium daily, and quercetin daily (which I recently read can assist with test levels in some form or fashion), among others.

Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but I’m going to add those back to my regimen as the d3 is the only one that I’m still taking.

Any info on cistanche? I’ve never heard of it. I’m going to start researching now.
 
barische

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I was actually thinking about this earlier - despite not having access to a gym during Covid, I didn’t suffer terrible losses while using dumbbells at home, pull-ups, etc. and wondered why I hadn’t lost as much as I thought I would.... I wonder if there’s a correlation to the fact that I was taking a lot of supplements to prepare my body in case I did catch Covid. Some of those included 5,000iu vitamin d (I’m very deficient, per blood work, but am now up to around 50-51), 50mg zinc daily, magnesium daily, selenium daily, and quercetin daily (which I recently read can assist with test levels in some form or fashion), among others.

Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but I’m going to add those back to my regimen as the d3 is the only one that I’m still taking.

Any info on cistanche? I’ve never heard of it. I’m going to start researching now.
Cistanche is the hottest thing right now
 
Smont

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If I remember correctly daa works on ppl with crashed testosterone levels but it lowers testosterone if you have normal levels.... Or something like that, either way I agree with whoever said it's no good.
 
bill86

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If I remember correctly daa works on ppl with crashed testosterone levels but it lowers testosterone if you have normal levels.... Or something like that, either way I agree with whoever said it's no good.
Yeah, I’m gonna return it. I looked up some studies and one suggested that it reduces test in active individuals, or something to that effect.

Just to think that years back I read threads telling people that DAA is so strong, they should run Inhibit-E (now banned) as a PCT lmao
 
Smont

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Yeah, I’m gonna return it. I looked up some studies and one suggested that it reduces test in active individuals, or something to that effect.

Just to think that years back I read threads telling people that DAA is so strong, they should run Inhibit-E (now banned) as a PCT lmao
That's how it goes, with everything... some time back there was a study that says product x does This or that, then all the "study guys" say it's in a study so it's true. Then all the talking parrots who may or may not have even used the product tell everyone there expert advice and before you know it daa is a staple supplement in everyone's plan. Some goes with nutrition information, drugs and training styles 🤦
 
sns8778

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Yeah, I’m gonna return it. I looked up some studies and one suggested that it reduces test in active individuals, or something to that effect.

Just to think that years back I read threads telling people that DAA is so strong, they should run Inhibit-E (now banned) as a PCT lmao
I think DAA fell victim to its own hype. Some people made it out to be so great that nothing could live up to that hype.
And its an example of one of those ingredients that you can find a study to say pretty much whatever you want to on it - good or bad.

I personally feel like the truth, like on most things, is in the middle - its a great ingredient for some people and doesn't work as well for others; for both test boosting and libido purposes. Like for me, I use M-Test as a test booster and I do use DAA sometimes but I think of it more as a libido booster than a test booster.
 

circa11

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am under the impression that pretty much any natural test booster product produces negligible results if any and they are usually a waste of money... anyone disagree?
 
sns8778

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Cistanche is the hottest thing right now
It's funny to me that I'd been researching this one since 2019 when it was brought up in one of our 'What do you want to see from us threads'. We were supposed to release a product with it in it last fall and it got delayed; which I'm kind of glad now since it seems like now is a better time to be launching it since its getting more talk.

We'll be using it in either 2 or 3 products within the next 3 to 4 months.
 
sns8778

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am under the impression that pretty much any natural test booster product produces negligible results if any and they are usually a waste of money... anyone disagree?
Absolutely disagree. I have an endocrinological condition and use M-Test year round because it make a big difference in my levels, especially my free test levels, which was a big part of what I was having an issue with. And I definitely feel better on it; and that's pretty common feedback on it.

I think it comes down to expectations. Are you going to feel like you're on testosterone? Of course not.
But can they help you increase your natural levels to help you feel better, improve libido, positive mood, and provide better results in the gym? Absolutely.

You can find a lot of great logs and review on M-Test and other natural test boosters on here.

Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the most hyped test boosters on the market are underdosed and overhyped so your statement may apply to them. But its definitely not accurate to say that all of them fall into that category.

Someone posted a great thread a couple weeks back about a study that showed great results on natural test level increases related to KSM66 and Furosap.
 
Smont

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Correct me if I’m wrong, but I am under the impression that pretty much any natural test booster product produces negligible results if any and they are usually a waste of money... anyone disagree?
I mostly agree with you, there is only a very small amount any of them will boost your testosterone, and none of them will boost it to a number that's going to give muscle building benifits unless you had the test levels of a 80 year old to start with. In that aspect, yes there a waste of money.

But, if your suffering from low t symptoms, test boosters can correct some of that, increase sex drive and we'll being.

If you have good testosterone levels but low free test, boron can fix that, almost as good as proviron does.

So if your goal is to use a test booster to raise testosterone to build muscle your probably wasting your time. But if your using it for low energy, poor mood and low sex drive you may have success with that.

Boron for free t in any situation on or off cycle is a cheap way to get added benifits of more free testosterone.

These are my opinions based on personal experience, friends experience and a combination of results I've seen people post on this forum
 
sns8778

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I think that 12 days on is based on this one study where subjects test levels rose some for the first 12 days, but then returned quicly back to starting levels. I doubt it was the same 12 days that it took the levels to fall back though, so that 12 days off is just cause' it seems logical or what ever. In another study daa decreased test levels though.. I don't personally think daa is any good, but I can see a use for it for a short time when test levels are lower than normal for some reason, like in pct. I'd rather try M-Test, Sustain Alpha, E Cottonii.
I think that DAA is a great example of a supplement that works great for some people and not for others. And also a great example of how someone could find a study to back up whatever point of view they have on it. It does work great for libido in a lot of people, including myself though.

I love M-Test. Sustain Alpha gets some good reviews. I'm not a fan of E Cottonii; but that's just personal opinion and based on some things I question about the studies on it and also knowing the raw material side of things and it being an ingredient that the quality is all over the place on.
 
Smont

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Absolutely disagree. I have an endocrinological condition and use M-Test year round because it make a big difference in my levels, especially my free test levels, which was a big part of what I was having an issue with. And I definitely feel better on it; and that's pretty common feedback on it.

I think it comes down to expectations. Are you going to feel like you're on testosterone? Of course not.
But can they help you increase your natural levels to help you feel better, improve libido, positive mood, and provide better results in the gym? Absolutely.

You can find a lot of great logs and review on M-Test and other natural test boosters on here.

Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the most hyped test boosters on the market are underdosed and overhyped so your statement may apply to them. But its definitely not accurate to say that all of them fall into that category.

Someone posted a great thread a couple weeks back about a study that showed great results on natural test level increases related to KSM66 and Furosap.
This is a good example of someone who has a reason to use it, gets some benifits and has reasonable expectations.

If your 22 years old with normal test levels for your age... Then a test booster is useless
 

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Absolutely disagree. I have an endocrinological condition and use M-Test year round because it make a big difference in my levels, especially my free test levels, which was a big part of what I was having an issue with. And I definitely feel better on it; and that's pretty common feedback on it.

I think it comes down to expectations. Are you going to feel like you're on testosterone? Of course not.
But can they help you increase your natural levels to help you feel better, improve libido, positive mood, and provide better results in the gym? Absolutely.

You can find a lot of great logs and review on M-Test and other natural test boosters on here.

Now don't get me wrong, a lot of the most hyped test boosters on the market are underdosed and overhyped so your statement may apply to them. But its definitely not accurate to say that all of them fall into that category.

Someone posted a great thread a couple weeks back about a study that showed great results on natural test level increases related to KSM66 and Furosap.
thanks for the info!
 
sns8778

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Save $$ on test boosters and eat better, stay away from alcohol, and crank out some deadlifts...

(If you're younger and have pretty mediocre test levels)
I have to respectfully disagree with you on that one.

A lot of people, including myself, use natural test boosters to help with a variety of different issues.

I think its all about expectations. No, I definitely wouldn't buy in the marketing hype of some companies and expect them to be like taking test; but if you're looking for improved libido, positive mood, in general feeling better, motivation to lift - all the things that would basically be associated with increased t levels in real life (as in not the BS ads), then I think they are definitely beneficial to a lot of people.
 
sns8778

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This is a good example of someone who has a reason to use it, gets some benifits and has reasonable expectations.

If your 22 years old with normal test levels for your age... Then a test booster is useless
It's ironic that you posted that. Unfortunately in my case, my condition was diagnosed in my 30's. The earliest my doctors saw that I'd ever had my levels tested were age 24 and my total was 323 then. The doctor back then completely dismissed it unfortunately. The lesson I learned out of that was to never take for granted levels are normal based on age haha. But I do agree that a 22 year old with normal test levels probably doesn't need one; just using myself as an example to anyone reading to never assume you have normal levels based on age. I encourage people to get their levels tested in their early 20's bc if anything medically does go wrong with them when you age, your doctors can look back and see what your baseline was.

But yes, I always talk about reasonable expectations with test boosters. I think that's the key.

The big time marketing companies from years past and what I call the informercial type ad companies have really brought a lot of negativity to this category with their completely unrealistic expectations.
 
sns8778

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thanks for the info!
No problem at all. I'm always glad to help in any way that I can.

My condition and the years of testing I went through with doctors trying to figure it out definitely taught me a lot about hormonal levels, things that can influence them, etc.
 
Smont

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It's ironic that you posted that. Unfortunately in my case, my condition was diagnosed in my 30's. The earliest my doctors saw that I'd ever had my levels tested were age 24 and my total was 323 then. The doctor back then completely dismissed it unfortunately. The lesson I learned out of that was to never take for granted levels are normal based on age haha. But I do agree that a 22 year old with normal test levels probably doesn't need one; just using myself as an example to anyone reading to never assume you have normal levels based on age. I encourage people to get their levels tested in their early 20's bc if anything medically does go wrong with them when you age, your doctors can look back and see what your baseline was.

But yes, I always talk about reasonable expectations with test boosters. I think that's the key.

The big time marketing companies from years past and what I call the informercial type ad companies have really brought a lot of negativity to this category with their completely unrealistic expectations.
There's actually a lot of men in there teens and 20s these days with low testosterone, it's alarming! And it's almost becoming normal. It ya when I said normal I mean what they should be at that age .

A lot of times I say test boosters are a waste, but that's more directed to how that person wants to use it. Ppl seem to think a t booster is going to jack there test levels up to 1000 or there going to use it as pct for a cycle...

Unrealistic and a waste of money if that's what you are looking for.

But I completely agree that there are specific situations and symptoms that they can help with reasonable expectations kept in mind. Especially in older guys and ppl suffering from low sex drive and low energy/mood ect
 
sns8778

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So, it’s been a very long time since I’ve supplemented with anything other than some standard preworkouts.

I recently grabbed some DAA and some Bullnox. I also picked up some KSM-66, Boron and Tongkat Ali.

My question is, should I “pre-cycle” (sorry, don’t know how else to phrase it) the DAA with some boron and/or Tongkat in order to “prime” (sorry, again, lol) my system for the DAA to help boost free test levels? The way I see it, a boost in test is pointless if it’s bound test.

Would it make sense to take the Boron (6mg per day) and Tongkat (300mg per day) for a couple of weeks prior to the DAA and Bullnox (I realize that Bullnox is a prop blend, so who knows if I’m getting a lot out of it) to try and help with the increase of free test?

Where would the KSM-66 play in?

Also, any suggestions on whether to take these on an empty stomach? I couldn’t find much when I searched.

Any other suggestions, such as dosing, welcomed!

(FWIW, I also grabbed some Epi-Plex, but I don’t really see how that would play into any of this, but it’s been many years since I researched any of this stuff. I just remember loving Epic years back, and was under the impression that its anabolic effects were apart from test and all that.... I also have some Nolvadex that was prescribed from my doctor and was hoping to incorporate the boron, etc. into using the Nolva in order to try and free up some of the test)

Thanks!
I apologize as some of what I reply to you may be repetitive with my other replies in the thread. I was going through multi-quoting yours and opening others in new screens but replied to them first to get all the screens out of the way.

Also, if I mention M-Test more than once, I'm not trying to sell you on M-Test; I'm just speaking of it as being the I use personally and also it happens to have KSM66, Boron, and Tongkat Ali in it, which are 3 of the ingredients you asked about.

I would say start taking them all at once in answer to your question.

DAA isn't as great as some people say but it also doesn't suck either like some people say. It's an ingredient that was overhyped and then bashed - so basically one extreme or the other. The truth is it seems to work great for some people and not so great for others. For me personally, I don't view it as a test booster bc I know M-Test dramatically increases my test and free test levels (I'm talking real #'s on bloodwork) and I have bloodwork done every 6 to 12 weeks because I have an autoimmune condition and an endocrinology condition. But I do notice an increase in my libido with DAA.

I have taken M-Test with and without food and it doesn't bother me either way. I don't think either way helps or hurts the absorption imo.

Epi-Plex is a great product and a daily use supplement for me. I struggle with both cardiovascular and muscular endurance and Epi-Plex and PEAK02 are the best things I've ever used for endurance. And yes, the way that Epi would work to build muscle is different than test boosting.

Thanks for the responses!

I’m 35 and I last had blood work done when I was around 30-32, and my test was just over 400. My doctor wouldn’t do free test, just total test and estrogen. However, I plan on seeing an endo soon that was referred by a friend. My friend has been taking clomid + boron (clomid prescribed by the endo) for about a year now and said he enjoys it, and the blood work shows noticeable increases in his test and free test. Nothing like actual test/AAS would do, but enough to notice a bit of a difference.

My Nolvadex was prescribed to try and treat pre-existing gyno (it didn’t work, I wish he had given me Raoxifene), but I was going to try and use it in a similar manner as my friend is using his clomid until I can get back in with a doctor. My gyno makes me hesitant to try anything stronger than natty boosters and the serm.
I hate to see doctors that won't do a comprehensive hormone panel. So many assume when someone asks now, they're just trying to get on HRT and that's not true. Baseline hormone panels may be needed later in life to determine hormonal abnormalities and when they started.

I know some people that have used Clomid for HRT. I've known some to love it and some to get too moody off of it to continue. I think its effective for hormone levels; it just depends on how it effects people emotionally as to whether its tolerable for them to use ongoingly.

I'm not speaking on existing gyno; but for you or anyone reading, we do get a lot of feedback from guys on HRT that do take Inhibit-E daily to help keep estrogen levels in check. I'm not saying they should use it in place of whatever they're prescribed, I'm saying in addition to. Bc many are prescribed Arimidex once or twice a week so by using Inhibit-E daily many people seem to find their mood and libido more stable with it.
 
sns8778

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Yeah, that’s my issue - my doctor wouldn’t do anything with it at 400, so I’d need to see someone else (even the endocrinologist may not, but I also hope to see him before I start anything so that I don’t have artificially high test numbers, even if only modestly higher).

I’m going to run the Nolva since I have it on hand and my research seems to suggest that it might be helpful, especially when paired with something to free up the test. Fingers crossed on some Raloxifene in the future (especially with the studies I’ve seen regarding pre-existing gyno, though it seems to be less helpful for increasing test)

Thanks for the help!

I guess I’ll just run everything at one time.

Back in the day I used to hear about 12-on-12-off for daily dosing of DAA, is there still any truth to that?
I know people that use DAA continuously. I've also seen people do 2 weeks on, 2 weeks off. And I've also seen people do 5 days on, 2 days off, and then repeat that for 8 weeks before taking a few week break.

I was actually thinking about this earlier - despite not having access to a gym during Covid, I didn’t suffer terrible losses while using dumbbells at home, pull-ups, etc. and wondered why I hadn’t lost as much as I thought I would.... I wonder if there’s a correlation to the fact that I was taking a lot of supplements to prepare my body in case I did catch Covid. Some of those included 5,000iu vitamin d (I’m very deficient, per blood work, but am now up to around 50-51), 50mg zinc daily, magnesium daily, selenium daily, and quercetin daily (which I recently read can assist with test levels in some form or fashion), among others.

Maybe it’s just a coincidence, but I’m going to add those back to my regimen as the d3 is the only one that I’m still taking.

Any info on cistanche? I’ve never heard of it. I’m going to start researching now.
Cistanche is an interesting ingredient. I started looking into it in 2019 when it was brought up in one of our threads. We were going to launch a product with it in there last fall but held off bc of all the other new releases we've had lined up. It will definitely be in 2 formulas coming out this year, and maybe a third one.
 
sns8778

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There's actually a lot of men in there teens and 20s these days with low testosterone, it's alarming! And it's almost becoming normal. It ya when I said normal I mean what they should be at that age .

A lot of times I say test boosters are a waste, but that's more directed to how that person wants to use it. Ppl seem to think a t booster is going to jack there test levels up to 1000 or there going to use it as pct for a cycle...

Unrealistic and a waste of money if that's what you are looking for.

But I completely agree that there are specific situations and symptoms that they can help with reasonable expectations kept in mind. Especially in older guys and ppl suffering from low sex drive and low energy/mood ect
It is scary that normal for that age is now days is so much lower than what it was in the past. I don't think there's any one cause, but likely a combination of them - bad diet, sedentary lifestyle, high prevalence of Vitamin D deficiency at younger ages, stress, and more.

I hate when companies overhype ingredients or types of products to death and give people unrealistic expectations because then it does create a backlash or negative opinion towards the category as a whole. And that sucks bc for people with realistic expectations, there are some great test boosters and test boosting ingredients available.

They're not going to turn you into a bodybuilder or the next pro athlete xyz, but they may just may help you feel better, both physically and mentally, and provide a host of other benefits. Gym wise - they're absolutely not going to give you real testosterone type gains, BUT even if they raise your levels x amount of points, that may translate into better results over time than if it was x amount of points lower. Again though, I'm talking about reasonable expectations.

M-Test for me I know helps my total test levels and my free test levels. It was my endocrinologist that told me it needed to be a daily use supplement for me in my case because my levels were so much better on it. And its funny because he is a very anti-supplement doctor. But my levels are better, my mood is better, libido is better, etc.
 

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The issue with a lot of natural test boosters is they give you about 1/10 of the amount of an ingredient to feel anything... not all of them but a lot of the run of the mill ones you find. I have found m test and sustain alpha to be a great combo at feeling better and such following a cycle of PH. They seem to have quality ingredients dosed at the right amount.

natural test boosters seem to be good for feeling better, libido boost, etc (when designed and dosed correctly). But no they aren’t going to add 20 lbs of muscle in a month lol.
 
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It is scary that normal for that age is now days is so much lower than what it was in the past. I don't think there's any one cause, but likely a combination of them - bad diet, sedentary lifestyle, high prevalence of Vitamin D deficiency at younger ages, stress, and more.

I hate when companies overhype ingredients or types of products to death and give people unrealistic expectations because then it does create a backlash or negative opinion towards the category as a whole. And that sucks bc for people with realistic expectations, there are some great test boosters and test boosting ingredients available.

They're not going to turn you into a bodybuilder or the next pro athlete xyz, but they may just may help you feel better, both physically and mentally, and provide a host of other benefits. Gym wise - they're absolutely not going to give you real testosterone type gains, BUT even if they raise your levels x amount of points, that may translate into better results over time than if it was x amount of points lower. Again though, I'm talking about reasonable expectations.

M-Test for me I know helps my total test levels and my free test levels. It was my endocrinologist that told me it needed to be a daily use supplement for me in my case because my levels were so much better on it. And its funny because he is a very anti-supplement doctor. But my levels are better, my mood is better, libido is better, etc.
I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist, you hear about all the estrogens in the food and water, low t becoming common at a young age, massive amounts of men wanting to become ladies and transgender movement. A push on society for men to be less manly. We hear a lot about all those things these days and they all seem to be linked to each other. 20 years ago there were far less young men with low t, men were pushed to be manly and there were very few men that wanted to be ladies. I can't help but feeling like it's happening on purpose, like there's a agenda to make it all happen.
 
sns8778

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I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist, you hear about all the estrogens in the food and water, low t becoming common at a young age, massive amounts of men wanting to become ladies and transgender movement. A push on society for men to be less manly. We hear a lot about all those things these days and they all seem to be linked to each other. 20 years ago there were far less young men with low t, men were pushed to be manly and there were very few men that wanted to be ladies. I can't help but feeling like it's happening on purpose, like there's a agenda to make it all happen.
I'm the same way. I hate to sound like that too - but facts are the facts, the average testosterone level is much lower now days than it used to be in the past.
 
bill86

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It is scary that normal for that age is now days is so much lower than what it was in the past. I don't think there's any one cause, but likely a combination of them - bad diet, sedentary lifestyle, high prevalence of Vitamin D deficiency at younger ages, stress, and more.

I hate when companies overhype ingredients or types of products to death and give people unrealistic expectations because then it does create a backlash or negative opinion towards the category as a whole. And that sucks bc for people with realistic expectations, there are some great test boosters and test boosting ingredients available.

They're not going to turn you into a bodybuilder or the next pro athlete xyz, but they may just may help you feel better, both physically and mentally, and provide a host of other benefits. Gym wise - they're absolutely not going to give you real testosterone type gains, BUT even if they raise your levels x amount of points, that may translate into better results over time than if it was x amount of points lower. Again though, I'm talking about reasonable expectations.

M-Test for me I know helps my total test levels and my free test levels. It was my endocrinologist that told me it needed to be a daily use supplement for me in my case because my levels were so much better on it. And its funny because he is a very anti-supplement doctor. But my levels are better, my mood is better, libido is better, etc.
Thank you for your posts, they’ve all been very helpful! I will definitely give M-Test a try in the future (I actually had it in my cart, but then realized I’d need 2-3 bottles, so I subbed it out for some boron, etc.)

I kind of went off on a tangent about test boosters with this thread, but what I primarily was looking to do was find something for free test as I hoped to use the Tamoxifen that I have for that purpose (again, doctor-prescribed). Anecdotally, my buddy was put on Clomid by his doctor, and began using boron because his free test levels remained low, but have increased quite nicely since. I believe, and may be wrong, that he said that his total test has nearly doubled since starting clomid about a year ago. He said he enjoys the way it makes him feel and that he feels it might be a bit easier for him to stay lean and vascular than it was before, but said that the mood is the best part.

I just wasn’t sure if I needed to “preload” with the boron, etc. to get the most out of the Nolva. Where I ended up going off the rails a bit was me wondering if I would be able to find something similar as I don’t necessarily want to be on a serm year-around... and as I mentioned earlier, if I do go the serm route, I’m hoping I can switch over to Raloxifene for the gyno purposes.

But yeah, all of this started on a casual trip to GNC to grab a quick energy drink. I saw some DAA on sale at the counter and grabbed it up. Then started thinking about stacking with the Nolva.... then my mind just went from there and I ended up ordering a bunch of the Ashwagandha, boron, Tongkat, and Epi-Plex because of the Memorial Day sale that’s still running (I enjoyed ep1c back in the day).... now here I am haha.

I had considered Dermacrine and Sustain Alpha as I’ve always heard good things. Maybe I’ll give them a shot in the future. Like I said, M-Test is certainly on my list and now I wish I had gone for that, but it ended up being cheaper to grab those individual ingredients, though, now I regret missing out on the other ingredients that it has haha
 
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Thank you for your posts, they’ve all been very helpful! I will definitely give M-Test a try in the future (I actually had it in my cart, but then realized I’d need 2-3 bottles, so I subbed it out for some boron, etc.)

I kind of went off on a tangent about test boosters with this thread, but what I primarily was looking to do was find something for free test as I hoped to use the Tamoxifen that I have for that purpose (again, doctor-prescribed). Anecdotally, my buddy was put on Clomid by his doctor, and began using boron because his free test levels remained low, but have increased quite nicely since. I believe, and may be wrong, that he said that his total test has nearly doubled since starting clomid about a year ago. He said he enjoys the way it makes him feel and that he feels it might be a bit easier for him to stay lean and vascular than it was before, but said that the mood is the best part.

I just wasn’t sure if I needed to “preload” with the boron, etc. to get the most out of the Nolva. Where I ended up going off the rails a bit was me wondering if I would be able to find something similar as I don’t necessarily want to be on a serm year-around... and as I mentioned earlier, if I do go the serm route, I’m hoping I can switch over to Raloxifene for the gyno purposes.

But yeah, all of this started on a casual trip to GNC to grab a quick energy drink. I saw some DAA on sale at the counter and grabbed it up. Then started thinking about stacking with the Nolva.... then my mind just went from there and I ended up ordering a bunch of the Ashwagandha, boron, Tongkat, and Epi-Plex because of the Memorial Day sale that’s still running (I enjoyed ep1c back in the day).... now here I am haha.

I had considered Dermacrine and Sustain Alpha as I’ve always heard good things. Maybe I’ll give them a shot in the future. Like I said, M-Test is certainly on my list and now I wish I had gone for that, but it ended up being cheaper to grab those individual ingredients, though, now I regret missing out on the other ingredients that it has haha
No problem at all, I'm glad to help in any way that I can.

Each bottle of M-Test lasts for 1 month, so it just depends on how long you wanted to run it as to how many bottles you would need to go with.

As for what you said about your friend - it seems like he is getting great results for Clomid. I've known some people to love it and be in better moods and I've known some people to be just unbearable on it. So just be cautious. I can of jokingly say it like this - when someone tries Clomid, if more than one person tells you you're being a jerk, just be aware that you really may be being and just not realize it haha.

I don't think you 'need' to preload but it wouldn't hurt to for 7 to 10 days.

I definitely don't blame you for not wanting to be on a SERM year round. They get discussed so much on boards like this that sometimes people view them like they don't pose significant risks of sides themselves, and like any medication, they do in some people.

I also want to commend you for specifying over and over that you're talking about legit prescriptions here. And honestly, if you were talking research chemicals I wouldn't have even replied to the Clomid part at all. I am not a fan of research chemicals because of the high risk of cross contamination or them just not being what they're supposed to be at all.

I think you would have likely been more pleased with M-Test than the single ingredient ones because KSM66 is much better for test boosting than generic Ashwagandha, PrimaVie has a lot of great benefits, and I absolutely love Fadogia. When you do try it, if you think about it, pm me and let me know what you think or let me know in the thread I'll link below as its kind of a conversational thread that I'm always active in.

And you're always welcome to pm me or tag me in posts if you have questions or if I can help in any way.
 
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No problem at all, I'm glad to help in any way that I can.

Each bottle of M-Test lasts for 1 month, so it just depends on how long you wanted to run it as to how many bottles you would need to go with.

As for what you said about your friend - it seems like he is getting great results for Clomid. I've known some people to love it and be in better moods and I've known some people to be just unbearable on it. So just be cautious. I can of jokingly say it like this - when someone tries Clomid, if more than one person tells you you're being a jerk, just be aware that you really may be being and just not realize it haha.

I don't think you 'need' to preload but it wouldn't hurt to for 7 to 10 days.

I definitely don't blame you for not wanting to be on a SERM year round. They get discussed so much on boards like this that sometimes people view them like they don't pose significant risks of sides themselves, and like any medication, they do in some people.

I also want to commend you for specifying over and over that you're talking about legit prescriptions here. And honestly, if you were talking research chemicals I wouldn't have even replied to the Clomid part at all. I am not a fan of research chemicals because of the high risk of cross contamination or them just not being what they're supposed to be at all.

I think you would have likely been more pleased with M-Test than the single ingredient ones because KSM66 is much better for test boosting than generic Ashwagandha, PrimaVie has a lot of great benefits, and I absolutely love Fadogia. When you do try it, if you think about it, pm me and let me know what you think or let me know in the thread I'll link below as its kind of a conversational thread that I'm always active in.

And you're always welcome to pm me or tag me in posts if you have questions or if I can help in any way.
Thanks man! I’m sure I’ll give it a shot in the coming months!

And FWIW, I did make sure to order the KSM66 (sns, I believe), so hopefully that plays in my favor.
 
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Thank you for your posts, they’ve all been very helpful! I will definitely give M-Test a try in the future (I actually had it in my cart, but then realized I’d need 2-3 bottles, so I subbed it out for some boron, etc.)

I kind of went off on a tangent about test boosters with this thread, but what I primarily was looking to do was find something for free test as I hoped to use the Tamoxifen that I have for that purpose (again, doctor-prescribed). Anecdotally, my buddy was put on Clomid by his doctor, and began using boron because his free test levels remained low, but have increased quite nicely since. I believe, and may be wrong, that he said that his total test has nearly doubled since starting clomid about a year ago. He said he enjoys the way it makes him feel and that he feels it might be a bit easier for him to stay lean and vascular than it was before, but said that the mood is the best part.

I just wasn’t sure if I needed to “preload” with the boron, etc. to get the most out of the Nolva. Where I ended up going off the rails a bit was me wondering if I would be able to find something similar as I don’t necessarily want to be on a serm year-around... and as I mentioned earlier, if I do go the serm route, I’m hoping I can switch over to Raloxifene for the gyno purposes.

But yeah, all of this started on a casual trip to GNC to grab a quick energy drink. I saw some DAA on sale at the counter and grabbed it up. Then started thinking about stacking with the Nolva.... then my mind just went from there and I ended up ordering a bunch of the Ashwagandha, boron, Tongkat, and Epi-Plex because of the Memorial Day sale that’s still running (I enjoyed ep1c back in the day).... now here I am haha.

I had considered Dermacrine and Sustain Alpha as I’ve always heard good things. Maybe I’ll give them a shot in the future. Like I said, M-Test is certainly on my list and now I wish I had gone for that, but it ended up being cheaper to grab those individual ingredients, though, now I regret missing out on the other ingredients that it has haha
Serms are known to increase shbg, so using boron with it is a good idea. Clomid contains zuclomifene and encomifene and I think it's the zuclomifene that's giving people the mood issues. There are enlomifene only products, but it's pretty new and seems to be rare for doctors to describe it as of now. It should be a better option though. Keep in mind Tamoxifen can induce moodiness and sides too for some users. Tamox also lowers IGF-1 some. The Ralox you are looking for would not lower IGF-1 (or at least as much) and has less sides overall, than Tamox. Clomid (the enlomifene in it) has the highest binding affinity to estrogen receptors on the hypotalamus out of all serms, which makes it the best serm for hpta restart. Raloxifene has the highest binding affinity to breast tissue, which makes it the best serm for gyno protection and attempted reduction. IIRC Tamox is slightly liver toxic too, so long time use is not like eating candy. Just throwing this stuff out there. Maybe take some NAC as long as using it. NAC is great.

The DHEA in Dermacrine is midly suppressive, so keep that in mind. Depending on your goals it may play a factor.
 
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I don't wanna sound like a conspiracy theorist, you hear about all the estrogens in the food and water, low t becoming common at a young age, massive amounts of men wanting to become ladies and transgender movement. A push on society for men to be less manly. We hear a lot about all those things these days and they all seem to be linked to each other. 20 years ago there were far less young men with low t, men were pushed to be manly and there were very few men that wanted to be ladies. I can't help but feeling like it's happening on purpose, like there's a agenda to make it all happen.
That's just toxic masculinity on your part ; )
 
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what products do you use for e cottonii?
I've used BLR Rebirth and Brawn Anti-E Complete. Can't really tell if it worked or not, it's one of those things.. But it has had some good feedback and at least one interesting study and result of it, so I thought throwing it out there. Other products that contain it are Outbreak Nutrition Rise, Black Magic Super Natty and Olympus Labs is just coming out with a new formula of Sup3r PCT.
 

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I've used BLR Rebirth and Brawn Anti-E Complete. Can't really tell if it worked or not, it's one of those things.. But it has had some good feedback and at least one interesting study and result of it, so I thought throwing it out there. Other products that contain it are Outbreak Nutrition Rise, Black Magic Super Natty and Olympus Labs is just coming out with a new formula of Sup3r PCT.
thanks man!
 
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Thanks man! I’m sure I’ll give it a shot in the coming months!

And FWIW, I did make sure to order the KSM66 (sns, I believe), so hopefully that plays in my favor.
KSM66 is a great ingredient. There was an interesting study that was done on some different herbals that showed KSM66 and Furosap being the most effective for test boosting. It was ironic bc we already had KSM66 and then we were getting ready to release Furosap XT anyway; and I didn't even know about that particular study. Someone posted it about a week before we released Furosap XT.

Here's a link to the Furosap XT thread. I mention it and link to it in there towards the top:


We also created a discounted price Furosap XT/KSM66 stack price for people that wanted to buy them together.
 
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I gotta give Steve /SNS props for m-test!!!! after taking it for 1 week I am having great morning woods and workout aggression. I try to cycle off all herbs after certain amount of time. I feel this is esp true for ash due to GABA interaction. I swore off of all hormonal substances while ago due to sides and valuing my life which especially important after having kids. I rather be around for a while. I enjoy messing around with these pro-androgenic herbs even though the effect is no where near actual AAS. But still gotta give steve and many of these excellent companies props for giving us many options. (SNS/CEL, ND, evomuse, etc). I have been on tongkat for about 1 month now also which i think is having positive effects- abit too dry as my elbow has been more creaky. I will be adding cistanche soon - will keep updated.
 
bill86

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I gotta give Steve /SNS props for m-test!!!! after taking it for 1 week I am having great morning woods and workout aggression. I try to cycle off all herbs after certain amount of time. I feel this is esp true for ash due to GABA interaction. I swore off of all hormonal substances while ago due to sides and valuing my life which especially important after having kids. I rather be around for a while. I enjoy messing around with these pro-androgenic herbs even though the effect is no where near actual AAS. But still gotta give steve and many of these excellent companies props for giving us many options. (SNS/CEL, ND, evomuse, etc). I have been on tongkat for about 1 month now also which i think is having positive effects- abit too dry as my elbow has been more creaky. I will be adding cistanche soon - will keep updated.
Hmm, I wonder if I need to look further into the Ashwagandha regarding the GABA interaction. I’m on an SSRI, and though it’s a relatively low dose and I didn’t see anything about interactions, I’ll give it a second look.
 
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Hmm, I wonder if I need to look further into the Ashwagandha regarding the GABA interaction. I’m on an SSRI, and though it’s a relatively low dose and I didn’t see anything about interactions, I’ll give it a second look.
I think you're fine. KSM66 is a branded ingredient with over 20 clinical studies and the company does not recommend any type of precautionary measures for it.

Of course, there is always the standard check with your doctor or pharmacist before using any supplement thing though.
 
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I gotta give Steve /SNS props for m-test!!!! after taking it for 1 week I am having great morning woods and workout aggression. I try to cycle off all herbs after certain amount of time. I feel this is esp true for ash due to GABA interaction. I swore off of all hormonal substances while ago due to sides and valuing my life which especially important after having kids. I rather be around for a while. I enjoy messing around with these pro-androgenic herbs even though the effect is no where near actual AAS. But still gotta give steve and many of these excellent companies props for giving us many options. (SNS/CEL, ND, evomuse, etc). I have been on tongkat for about 1 month now also which i think is having positive effects- abit too dry as my elbow has been more creaky. I will be adding cistanche soon - will keep updated.
Thank you. I really appreciate that and I'm really glad you're enjoying M-Test.

I'm right there with you on the health and being around longer being more important once kids come into the equation. It factors into long term and also daily life. Like I used to be so strict on my diet, and now even if I am trying to be strict, if my daughter bakes something or wants me to cook her something, her smile is worth more to me than sticking to my diet :)

If all goes well, we'll have a lot of new exciting options available in the near future as well.
 
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Serms are known to increase shbg, so using boron with it is a good idea. Clomid contains zuclomifene and encomifene and I think it's the zuclomifene that's giving people the mood issues. There are enlomifene only products, but it's pretty new and seems to be rare for doctors to describe it as of now. It should be a better option though. Keep in mind Tamoxifen can induce moodiness and sides too for some users. Tamox also lowers IGF-1 some. The Ralox you are looking for would not lower IGF-1 (or at least as much) and has less sides overall, than Tamox. Clomid (the enlomifene in it) has the highest binding affinity to estrogen receptors on the hypotalamus out of all serms, which makes it the best serm for hpta restart. Raloxifene has the highest binding affinity to breast tissue, which makes it the best serm for gyno protection and attempted reduction. IIRC Tamox is slightly liver toxic too, so long time use is not like eating candy. Just throwing this stuff out there. Maybe take some NAC as long as using it. NAC is great.

The DHEA in Dermacrine is midly suppressive, so keep that in mind. Depending on your goals it may play a factor.
Great breakdown describing them. And I commend your attention to detail making sure to point out that they too have potential side effects. I think many people take them too lightly and casually without fully realizing that the potential sides that they can have.

And agreed, NAC is a great ingredient. For liver support purposes, our Liver Assist XT is tough to beat - it has NAC, Milk Thistle, Curcumin (95%), and Artichoke Extract in it.
 
bill86

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Thank you. I really appreciate that and I'm really glad you're enjoying M-Test.

I'm right there with you on the health and being around longer being more important once kids come into the equation. It factors into long term and also daily life. Like I used to be so strict on my diet, and now even if I am trying to be strict, if my daughter bakes something or wants me to cook her something, her smile is worth more to me than sticking to my diet :)

If all goes well, we'll have a lot of new exciting options available in the near future as well.
I was looking at the profile of M-Test, and is that 3,4 ingredient the same active ingredient that was in Erase? It’s been about 7 years since I tried Erase, so my memory may be playing tricks on me.
 

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