How PPs 500mg test e equivalency is factored.(andro series v3)
- Thread starter Husker89
- Start date
jbryand101b
Banned
opcorn:but i will say this, i believe they are saying the potency of the target hormones when taken orally will equate to the potency of some ester of testosterone when injected intramuscularly.
Husker89
Banned
thanks jbry I AM NOT BASHING jsut wondering whats up PP reps welcome
but i will say this, i believe they are saying the potency of the target hormones when taken orally will equate to the potency of some ester of testosterone when injected intramuscularly.
SuperPro
Well-known member
but i will say this, i believe they are saying the potency of the target hormones when taken orally will equate to the potency of some ester of testosterone when injected intramuscularly.
Which I think doesn't necessarily mean that the absorbency is equal.
Husker89
Banned
i think they clearly do they say INJECTABLE TEST E which proves they are admitting what this product will do. They didnt just say 500 mgs of test
pillsRgood
Active member
Do what i did, stack it with injectable test, lol...
jbryand101b
Banned
pillsRgood said:
Lol
Husker89
Banned
the response i got awhile ago was that they combine estrogen/progestrones/ and androgens to get to 500 or whatever number. WHICH IS BS
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
The main problem I had with the comparison of the AS products to test was that the androhard and androlean and androbulk were all compared to a test mg amount equivalent ....while the AH should be compared to masteron, the AB should be compared to test/deca, and the androlean to whatever cort control/fat burning agent you choose that is similar....the AM comparison to test is a legit comparison, not saying it is equivalent to that 500mg total....but at least your comparing apples to apples there.....only way to really find out is for the same person to take a full dose of AM for X amount of weeks, then later take 500mg test for X amount of weeks with everything the same diet and training wise....then you can make a comparison. anybody got a good amount of test laying around?, and enough money for a full course of AMv3? and a lot of cycle time to spare? 
Austinmck17
Member
WARBIRDWS6 said:The main problem I had with the comparison of the AS products to test was that the androhard and androlean and androbulk were all compared to a test mg amount equivalent ....while the AH should be compared to masteron, the AB should be compared to test/deca, and the androlean to whatever cort control/fat burning agent you choose that is similar....the AM comparison to test is a legit comparison, not saying it is equivalent to that 500mg total....but at least your comparing apples to apples there.....only way to really find out is for the same person to take a full dose of AM for X amount of weeks, then later take 500mg test for X amount of weeks with everything the same diet and training wise....then you can make a comparison. anybody got a good amount of test laying around?, and enough money for a full course of AMv3? and a lot of cycle time to spare?
The way it is compared is based on results. It's saying andromass will give similar results to xxx amount of test
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
yeah I know, that is how the reps explained it a few months back....BUT I still maintain it is confusing and not the best way to compare the equivalent effects of the products, comparing apples to oranges. Its always better to compare apples to apples....DHT to masteron for instance, that is what it is essentially....so compare it to masteron not test. different people have different views on this, as I said we have been over this before (but husker keeps bringing it back up LOL
)
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
Husker, I am happy to see you are still interested in our products. My offer to provide you with a coupon is still on the table.
In terms of how we developed the 'equivalency' that is provided on our sales pages as well as our white papers, it is not that difficult to understand. The idea was to look at the totality of hormonal activity that occurs when a user administers testosterone, and compare that activity in terms of what we know about the administration of the DHEA products found in the androseries. This allows us to provide a comparison to the end user that gives a general idea of product expectations, and allows a comparison to be made between these hormones and testosterone (Users who have previously claimed that you can/should not compare hormones to Testosterone must forget that the comparison is the basis for Vida's Androgens and Anabolic Agents, the same book that most the 'internet gurus' will be quick to note in their own arguments).
In order to determine an appropriate comparison for the Androseries products to testosterone, Eric analyzed newer in-vivo and in-vitro studies concerning androgen receptor binding and what we know concerning various base information on anabolic agents found in Vida's Hersheberger assay/in-vivo studies on rats. The next step was to determine what rate of absorption can be expected in regards to these hormones, the addition of their respective esters and the inhibition of enzymes provided by our new liquavade carrier. There are many studies (I believe nearly 160 provided for AndroMass) available in our white pages that will demonstrate the various studies that were utilized int he calculation of these expected values. One we had a reasonable idea of how the absorption would be, we were able to compare that to what has been demonstrated in studies in terms of hormonal activity (Bio-assay/Vida), and come to the conclusion of what can be expected from these products.
In terms of you condescending comments regarding our usage of A:A:E ratios, these ratios were provided on the basis of what has been demonstrated in bio assay studies and Vida, and allowed us to formulate a hybrid equivalence claim. In terms of the importance of estrogen in the matter, you seem to be concentrating the most extreme portion of the equivalence, in which there is relatively (in comparison to testosterone/DHT/etc), less weight in regards to this equivalency. There is a heavily growing movement in endocrinology to look at a TRT patient in terms of total hormonal activity, and not just of testosterone, and this is within good reason. There is overlap in activity between these hormones that makes an understanding of the 'big picture' of androgenic/hormonal activity more relevant than merely measuring just the individual hormones.
Although I find your knowledge on hormones to be rather weak, given posts you have made that I have had the pleasure of reading, and believe this thread was a weak attempt at a call out, I am more than happy to point you in the direction of our white pages an online copies of Vida's text. If you are interested, please send me a PM. I am always happy to talk to you Husker.
Wishing you the best at all times,
-HTS
In terms of how we developed the 'equivalency' that is provided on our sales pages as well as our white papers, it is not that difficult to understand. The idea was to look at the totality of hormonal activity that occurs when a user administers testosterone, and compare that activity in terms of what we know about the administration of the DHEA products found in the androseries. This allows us to provide a comparison to the end user that gives a general idea of product expectations, and allows a comparison to be made between these hormones and testosterone (Users who have previously claimed that you can/should not compare hormones to Testosterone must forget that the comparison is the basis for Vida's Androgens and Anabolic Agents, the same book that most the 'internet gurus' will be quick to note in their own arguments).
In order to determine an appropriate comparison for the Androseries products to testosterone, Eric analyzed newer in-vivo and in-vitro studies concerning androgen receptor binding and what we know concerning various base information on anabolic agents found in Vida's Hersheberger assay/in-vivo studies on rats. The next step was to determine what rate of absorption can be expected in regards to these hormones, the addition of their respective esters and the inhibition of enzymes provided by our new liquavade carrier. There are many studies (I believe nearly 160 provided for AndroMass) available in our white pages that will demonstrate the various studies that were utilized int he calculation of these expected values. One we had a reasonable idea of how the absorption would be, we were able to compare that to what has been demonstrated in studies in terms of hormonal activity (Bio-assay/Vida), and come to the conclusion of what can be expected from these products.
In terms of you condescending comments regarding our usage of A:A:E ratios, these ratios were provided on the basis of what has been demonstrated in bio assay studies and Vida, and allowed us to formulate a hybrid equivalence claim. In terms of the importance of estrogen in the matter, you seem to be concentrating the most extreme portion of the equivalence, in which there is relatively (in comparison to testosterone/DHT/etc), less weight in regards to this equivalency. There is a heavily growing movement in endocrinology to look at a TRT patient in terms of total hormonal activity, and not just of testosterone, and this is within good reason. There is overlap in activity between these hormones that makes an understanding of the 'big picture' of androgenic/hormonal activity more relevant than merely measuring just the individual hormones.
Although I find your knowledge on hormones to be rather weak, given posts you have made that I have had the pleasure of reading, and believe this thread was a weak attempt at a call out, I am more than happy to point you in the direction of our white pages an online copies of Vida's text. If you are interested, please send me a PM. I am always happy to talk to you Husker.
Wishing you the best at all times,
-HTS
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
How long did you run AndroMass, and what were your results?
The issue with the comparison, and this addresses the second question that was provided by husker, is that the time frame between the two products tends to be different. We have seen users that have gained in excess of 10 lbs on an 8 week cycle of AndroMass. In comparison to testosterone, it is hard to consider that far off. What is generally seen from a standard cycle of solo testosterone, 14-18lbs? A user who gained 12 lbs in 8 weeks of AndroMass, would be fairly close to the gains that would be seen at that point from a test user, and would be on schedule to fall into that range in 12 weeks. The one difference with this in the v3 products is we have seen an increasing amount of guys claiming to have lost body fat on the cycle (most likely due to the inclusion of AndroHard). In this case, a member who gained 8lbs but claims to have leaned out as well, should consider the totality of muscle gain, rather than just weight gain.
yeah I know, that is how the reps explained it a few months back....BUT I still maintain it is confusing and not the best way to compare the equivalent effects of the products, comparing apples to oranges. Its always better to compare apples to apples....DHT to masteron for instance, that is what it is essentially....so compare it to masteron not test. different people have different views on this, as I said we have been over this before (but husker keeps bringing it back up LOL
I quoted you simply to state that my comment about those against the comparison to testosterone was not in any way directed towards you. I consider all of your posts (in my experience) to be genuine in nature. Those I targeted with that comment know who they are (and none have posted in this thread at this time).
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
oh yeah no problem man.....as you know I have 2 ABv3 to run sitting here, and 3 AMv2-3's to run as well here....and have used AHv3 with good results in the past....I just have my opinions which I always vocalize if I feel strongly about it.....It just bugs the shyt out of me that the AS products are not compared to their equivalent AAS counterparts....not that the test comparison is the "wrong" way to do it, just that its only one way to do it....and it can be misleading or confusing to some....but I fully understand the concept.....and don't actually have a huge problem with it.
machorox123
Well-known member
HereToStudy said:
You sir are the sh*t.. You never fail to make husked look like a complete douche..well actually he does that pretty well for himself
apoxtle
Member
i'll have to go back and check my records. i was taking 9 caps a day i believe and i gained nearly 15 lbs. i responded very well to it. it was v2 i believe.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
See that is what I mean. Granted, you did go above the standard dose, so we would be looking at a higher level of testosterone, but don't let 4 week results from products like Superdrol fool you, your results were very in line with testosterone.
MattPorter
Banned
You know,
from the start I really hated the testosterone milligram claims -- I argued for a good bit , then finally accepted the concept.
I knew this was going to get people heated and not well received, but I remember thinking about my experience with BioTest Mag-10....
That finally made me more comfortable with the claims (well, a bit more comfortable). I gained, and several others I knew gained 12+ lbs in 2-4 weeks from Mag-10.
It was a ethyl carbonate form of 1AD + 4AD so I knew if our absorption and bioavailability panned out to be accurate -- I could see 'similar' gains to that old Mag-10 product ----> which then would be very similar to 400 or so mgs of testosterone.
Things did sync up with the product results and the claims remained -- I still wish we left that direct comparison out of the marketing, but all in all it has some merit.
-Matt
from the start I really hated the testosterone milligram claims -- I argued for a good bit , then finally accepted the concept.
I knew this was going to get people heated and not well received, but I remember thinking about my experience with BioTest Mag-10....
That finally made me more comfortable with the claims (well, a bit more comfortable). I gained, and several others I knew gained 12+ lbs in 2-4 weeks from Mag-10.
It was a ethyl carbonate form of 1AD + 4AD so I knew if our absorption and bioavailability panned out to be accurate -- I could see 'similar' gains to that old Mag-10 product ----> which then would be very similar to 400 or so mgs of testosterone.
Things did sync up with the product results and the claims remained -- I still wish we left that direct comparison out of the marketing, but all in all it has some merit.
-Matt
jbryand101b
Banned
hts, i think you ment in vivo studies with rats.
in vitro would of been with rat parts, like blood in a petri dish.
could be either or, i dont know.
for most, in vivo studies hold more weight.
the percentage numbers for 4-androstenediol conversion was done in vitro, and are useless.
in vitro would of been with rat parts, like blood in a petri dish.
could be either or, i dont know.
for most, in vivo studies hold more weight.
the percentage numbers for 4-androstenediol conversion was done in vitro, and are useless.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
I always make the mistake of using one and sticking with it throughout the conversation as my response flows. I will edit it.
Vida would technically be considered Hersheberger assay, but I meant to type in vivo at the time (as they were administered while alive). Our collection of studies for product development feature both in vitro and in vivo studies. Your opinion on the studies aside, they still present information that was beneficial towards the understanding of these base hormones.
I will edit the original posting.
Husker89
Banned
Just answer this question, do you count estrogen and progestrone combined with androgens to get to total test equivalency, or just androgens. PS i dont care what the trend is in hrt, if you say something is equal to it it better be equal. 500m gs of test doesnt equal 300 mgs of androgens and 200 of estrogen.
Husker89
Banned
Since you will ACTUALLY answer the question, do you count estrogen progestrones and androgens combined to get to 500mgs of injectable test? If so i feel thats wrong. Lets be clear you guys arent saying it will be like 500mgs of test you are saying EQUAL TO 500mgs of test injectable
Husker89
Banned
Please refrain from useless comments i said this wasnt a bash im just asking a question i feel people would want to know. And no profanity either.
MattPorter
Banned
Husk,
part of testosterone anabolism and weight gain is induced by the aromatization to estrogen. You get water bloat, from this mechanism + some will store fat in high E2 enriched areas --- if you take letrozole or a strong AI with testosterone I highly doubt you will be gaining 15-20 lbs in 8 weeks....and would gain much less.
However -- I believe Eric's calculations did include all conversions to intermediate steroids to get the approximate anabolic equivalency to testosterone - like - gains.
Regardless if people think this calculation is hog wash or completely inaccurate or not truly comparable -- so be it. At the end of the day people have still made GREAT GAINS and some have made POOR GAINS.
Same exact statement could be said about 1 person cycling testosterone and a different person using the same brand and dose of testosterone --- great gains and poor gains.
We should move on from this topic and I know the marketing will be changing vastly very soon so this topic is pointless
-matt
part of testosterone anabolism and weight gain is induced by the aromatization to estrogen. You get water bloat, from this mechanism + some will store fat in high E2 enriched areas --- if you take letrozole or a strong AI with testosterone I highly doubt you will be gaining 15-20 lbs in 8 weeks....and would gain much less.
However -- I believe Eric's calculations did include all conversions to intermediate steroids to get the approximate anabolic equivalency to testosterone - like - gains.
Regardless if people think this calculation is hog wash or completely inaccurate or not truly comparable -- so be it. At the end of the day people have still made GREAT GAINS and some have made POOR GAINS.
Same exact statement could be said about 1 person cycling testosterone and a different person using the same brand and dose of testosterone --- great gains and poor gains.
We should move on from this topic and I know the marketing will be changing vastly very soon so this topic is pointless
-matt
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
True, people like to overlook the fact that much of the "gains" are estrogen related, and if you mitigate the estrogens effects with a strong AI....you get leaner truer gains, which to me is more desirable. who wants to be all bloated up and be 20 lbs or more up in weight? give me 8-10 lean/permanent and I'd be much happier. take your AI with your AAS people! lol
but seriously on the AI and AS product question....what kind of AI would work best with ABv3? any suggestions? (matt)?
but seriously on the AI and AS product question....what kind of AI would work best with ABv3? any suggestions? (matt)?
Husker89
Banned
ya i hate bloat
True, people like to overlook the fact that much of the "gains" are estrogen related, and if you mitigate the estrogens effects with a strong AI....you get leaner truer gains, which to me is more desirable. who wants to be all bloated up and be 20 lbs or more up in weight? give me 8-10 lean/permanent and I'd be much happier. take your AI with your AAS people! lol
but seriously on the AI and AS product question....what kind of AI would work best with ABv3? any suggestions? (matt)?
MattPorter
Banned
Bulk is a tricky little devil -- I feel androhard + low dose dostinex twice a week at 0.5 mgs. If you did not choose AH, arimi at .5 mgs 3 times a week could suffice well....
-Matt
-Matt
True, people like to overlook the fact that much of the "gains" are estrogen related, and if you mitigate the estrogens effects with a strong AI....you get leaner truer gains, which to me is more desirable. who wants to be all bloated up and be 20 lbs or more up in weight? give me 8-10 lean/permanent and I'd be much happier. take your AI with your AAS people! lol
but seriously on the AI and AS product question....what kind of AI would work best with ABv3? any suggestions? (matt)?
Husker89
Banned
Ya i agree to move on, your products have been proven to be effective so I will give you that, and ps to everyone yelling at me, i said it wasnt a bash thread.
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
I was gonna take DAA at night along with it....therefore I would be taking 1-carboxy/P5P/l-Dopa daily for the duration (8 weeks)....would they suffice as a replacement for the 2x week dostinex? I figure they would. I would be running forma stanzol for a while, maybe the first 3-4 weeks since it will run over into that cycle (just using out the bottle)....so that would be an anti-estrogen there....maybe some erase or something OTC for the remainder of the cycle.....
handcannon7
Member
I would still 100% of the time take real legit test from the highly respected private lab I use, real AAS>everything. A physique isnt built on just how much weight you gain, that where the similarity ends between test and this stuff..is "weight" gain.
machorox123
Well-known member
Husker89 said:
Sorry. Didn't mean to hurt yur feelings. I think I remember you saying you have no interest in PPs products because they are too expensive..so if yur not interested in using why start 3 threads about the same topic in under 24 hours. Theres got to be some other motive behind your rude behavior. Yu say yur not calling anyone out or bashing but yu obviously are when you start 3 posts about the same thing.reps have answered your question numerous times yet yu still don't seem to get it.. If you don't get it by now then it's probly time to move on.. But yu prob won't because you obviously have some kind of beef with PP. although I must say reading you and heretostudy argue is kind of funny
WARBIRDWS6
Banned
LOL
maybe he is championing the protection of the greater public good, keeping the AM consumers safe from overspending.....kind of like AM's superman
or maybe not LMFAO.......
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
It's honestly not worth it. I would have loved to just ignore his post, but Mr. 'No Agenda' made a second thread about how we were 'dodging' his question. He openly stated he has a problem with me and the company, oh well, no skin off my back. I just don't want customers to get the wrong impression.
Husker89
Banned
I asked you 5 times and YOU still havent told me if you use just androgens or estorgens and progestrones to get to 500, matt was the only one who could answer.
Husker89
Banned
They are too expensive for me, so what? That doesnt mean i am not curious about something that says it is is equal to 500mgs of injectable test.
Tell me where he answered my question about if you can count estrogen and progestrones to equal test? THE REASON I KEEP ASKING IS BECAUSE HE NEVER ANSWERED, the only one who did was matt, a respectable member. Show me where and answered that question directly . Not in a page of writing about trending trt, but a simple yes or no, HE DIDNT
Tell me where he answered my question about if you can count estrogen and progestrones to equal test? THE REASON I KEEP ASKING IS BECAUSE HE NEVER ANSWERED, the only one who did was matt, a respectable member. Show me where and answered that question directly . Not in a page of writing about trending trt, but a simple yes or no, HE DIDNT
Husker89
Banned
So hts ill ask you 1 more time, all ive wanted is a yes or no answer, do you count estrogen and progestrone as being equal to injectable test?????????????????????????????????
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
What the hell answer do you want. I clearly stated above that the calculation is based on the total hormonal environment. Do you want me to bold it? I then stated that their contribution to the calculation is minimal at best. Would you like me to bold that?
If you want to play forum hard ass, learn to read.
If you want to play forum hard ass, learn to read.
HereToStudy
Primordial Performance Rep
I don't mind it when it is intelligent conversation. When I feel I am arguing with someone who is not even sure what they are asking, it becomes a headache.
Husker89
Banned
Well i said say yes or no i think thats pretty clear but finally you admitted total hormonal environment. So by YOUR calculations i could have 400 of estrogen and 100 of progestrones and that would equal 500 mg of injectable test by YOUR method, thats all i wanted
machorox123
Well-known member
Husker89 said:
Wow
Husker89
Banned
care to explain?
handcannon7
Member
one of the dumbest things Ive ever read.
machorox123
Well-known member
Husker89 said:
No.. Matt and heretostudy are much smarter than I and if they can't explain it in a way that you can understand, how would I? Like I said prob time to move on and stop harassing PP reps
ITW
Member
agreed.