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How Israel avoids the obvious Palestinian solution

  • Thread starter Thread starter lutherblsstt
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Those who stand in defense of what they believe in regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

I have respect for those who walk the talk, instead of those who fold when things get tough. However, said respect does not mean I agree or admire them.

I would ask you to reconsider your viewpoint. Taking an extreme example of someone who stood in defense of his beliefs even though he was grossly wrong, is
Hitler. He walked the walk. According to your 1st quote, he's a hero of yours, and that implies admiration, even if you disagree with him.

You seem to believe 'staying the course' is an end unto itself, if it doesn't matter if the course is wrong or right. Would Hitler be less admirable if he had seen the error of his ways, and turned off the gas in Auschwitz, or surrendered a year earlier? You're implying that's the case.

I walk in on my wife and another man. He jumps up and yells angrily, 'you're married?' In a rage, I grab him, whip out my Benchmade, hold it to his throat, and my wife screams. Will I be a better man if I come to my senses and leave to blow off steam elsewhere; or if
I slit his throat, even though he did not know she was married, because, well, that was my first instinct? Stay the course, yo!
 
I would ask you to reconsider your viewpoint. Taking an extreme example of someone who stood in defense of his beliefs even though he was grossly wrong, is
Hitler. He walked the walk. According to your 1st quote, he's a hero of yours, and that implies admiration, even if you disagree with him.

Actually I never once stated hitler was my hero, and since I am the one who posted that detail in MY profile that would also mean I am the one who makes such determinations of who I feel meets those criteria.... not you or anyone else. I suppose I could pick through your posts, and profile in an effort to find things I could attempt to use as leverage against you, or to even twist enough so as to give them a different meaning than what they hold.... but to me that's cowardly and dishonest.

Reading between the lines or having a false sense of knowing/understanding of what a person is thinking is what leads to misunderstanding and false accusations. Keep in mind that what you feel may fit for that saying won't necessarily reflect what I feel.

I've always found that attempting to entrap or otherwise attack one's character/morals/values also shows one's lack of a credible response to actual topic(s) at hand. Character Assassination as they call it. You will definitely have to try harder if you want people to suspect my credibility.

As for your scenario, I wouldn't fault you either way. Making emotion based decisions, especially extremely emotional ones can cause an otherwise rational person to take unrational measures.
 
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Actually I never once stated hitler was my hero, and since I am the one who posted that detail in MY profile that would also mean I am the one who makes such determinations of who I feel meets those criteria.... not you or anyone else. I suppose I could pick through your posts, and profile in an effort to find things I could attempt to use as leverage against you, or to even twist enough so as to give them a different meaning than what they hold.... but to me that's cowardly and dishonest.

Reading between the lines or having a false sense of knowing/understanding of what a person is thinking is what leads to misunderstanding and false accusations. Keep in mind that what you feel may fit for that saying won't necessarily reflect what I feel.

I've always found that attempting to entrap or otherwise attack one's character/morals/values also shows one's lack of a credible response to actual topic(s) at hand. Character Assassination as they call it. You will definitely have to try harder if you want people to suspect my credibility.

As for your scenario, I wouldn't fault you either way. Making emotion based decisions, especially extremely emotional ones can cause an otherwise rational person to take unrational measures.

You took me the wrong way. it wasn't an attack on you at all, I'm sure you don't like Hitler at all. Hitler is just the ultimate example of someone we all know who fits your description of a hero.

My point was that your statement in your profile:

Heros: Those who stand in defense of what they believe in regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

Is a bit twisted, if you take it at face value, and is easily interpreted (and you can't say the literal interpretation is a MISinterpretation) as being such. Later you clarified what that means to you:

I have respect for those who walk the talk, instead of those who fold when things get tough. However, said respect does not mean I agree or admire them.

That's quite different from the quote in your profile.

Taking the profile quote at face value, it doesn't speak well of YOU. Hey, if you don't care, I don't care, I'm just sayin'.

Again, no problem with you, and no attack was intended in any way.
 
Again, no problem with you, and no attack was intended in any way.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm always on guard when it comes to folks on the net. I get a little defensive at times due to how some folks like to have "discussions" on hot topics, so when I enter one I'm on guard for such things.... I do apologize if I came off a bit abrasive with my last post.
 
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I'm always on guard when it comes to folks on the net. I get a little defensive at times due to how some folks like to have "discussions" on hot topics, so when I enter one I'm on guard for such things.... I do apologize if I came off a bit abrasive with my last post.

It's all good. I actually hesitated to use 'Hitler', especially in a thread about Israel, because no matter what the intent, it's likely to come across poorly. I guess I should've stuck with my gut, lol. Anyway, no offense meant, and none taken. :)
 
Publicizing story of Jewish refugees could facilitate genuine peace process

Ada Aharoni
Published: 07.10.09, 00:02 / Israel Opinion

One of the main causes of the modern wave of anti-Semitism currently sweeping through Europe is the Palestinian propaganda campaign, which created an anti-Jewish climate. In order to counter this basic element, we must present the truth about the expulsion of the Jews from Arab states.


The world only heard about the injustice causes to the Palestinian refugees, but there is almost nothing out there about the disaster suffered by the Jews expelled from Arab states, and especially from Egypt, Iraq, and Syria. A comparison between the events reveals that while the number of Palestinian refugees in 1948 totaled 650,000 people, the number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries was higher, and stood at 900,000 people (according to UNWRA.)


The property which the Jews were forced to leave behind in Arab states – both private and communal assets – was of much greater value than what the Palestinians left behind in Israel, as documented by the International Court of Justice at The Hague.


In fact, the Jews suffered “ethnic cleansing” in Arab states. Only a few Jews live there today. Egypt’s Jewish community, for example, comprised 90,000 Jews in 1948. Today, only 38 Jews live there. On the other hand, the Arabs (who prefer to call themselves Palestinians) who live in Israel today constitute 20% of the population.


Explaining these facts would be very beneficial and allow for change, shifting from prejudice to fairness, justice, and truth. Once the Palestinians realize they were not the only ones who suffered, their sense of victimization and rejectionism will decline. Moreover, if the Jews from Arab states, who along with their descendents constitute almost half of Israel’s population today, will see that their history and their “Nakba” is being considered an integral part of the Arab-Israeli conflict, they may be willing to offer concessions for genuine peace.


Matter of dignity
During a course I taught at the University of Pennsylvania, the head of the Palestinian student group, Fouad, said with amazement: We’re surprised that you, the Jews, who are known as smart people, did not publicize this important historical affair - the Nakba of Jews in Arab states. Why do you leave it tucked away in your drawers for 60 years?


I asked him: Why do you want Israel to publicize it? And He replied: Because the Nakba narrative of Jews in Arab states salvages my dignity and that of my people! It makes us realize we are not the only ones who suffered in the conflict. Familiarity with the historical facts allows us to hold up our heads and opens up reconciliation opportunities.


Fouad added: For us, reconciliation means erasing all the hatred and ill feelings. Yet the condition for it is that the side that did the harm pay the aggrieved side for the reconciliation. The research in this course taught us that Jews from Arab states today comprise about half the Jewish people in Israel. We didn’t know that. So Israel already paid for the reconciliation, with half its population losing all its property in Arab states. People were forced to leave the countries they were born in, just like us Palestinians, and they too spread worldwide. It is so clear to us now that we are not the only refugees who suffered from this tragic conflict.


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Fouad noted that should the Israeli government present this issue properly, both peoples would be able to advance towards a process of real peace. We, the Palestinians, will feel that our dignity has been salvaged, and as you know dignity is the most important thing for us, he said. I was thinking to myself: My students were able to understand what all Israeli governments have failed to grasp thus far.


Prof. Ada Aharoni is the chairman of The World Congress of the Jews from Egypt

Again, luther, why must Arab land be 'jew-free', in the most German sense of the term?
 
hmmm,what people make up isreali gov,jews.your just a ****in moron.why dont you worry about yourself instead of international affairs you dont seem to comprehend.

You are determined to label me a `jew hater`.

Using your `logic` I guess if you disagree with the policies of the Iranian government that makes you a `Persian hater` since the people who make up their government are Persians or you must hate Koreans if you criticize North Korea,right?
 
When did I say that?

I've been asking for a response to this:

Answer me this. Israel is approximately 6mil people, 5 million Jews and 1 million Arabs. Now, what people don't get is these are Israeli citizens, OUTSIDE the Palestinian areas (where the residents are NOT Israeli citizens). In other words, 20% of the Israeli populace is Israeli-Arab, with full rights as citizens, and a waiver from IDF mandatory service to prevent conflicts of interest for them.

Now, take the Palestinian controlled areas, Gaza and the WEst Bank. Israel, in a concession towards peace in 2005, forcibly and against its citizens wishes pulled all Jews out of Gaza, and gave Gaza over to PA control. The West Bank has a majority Arabs, with around 650k Jews living in settlements therein.

When Palestinians talk about a 2 state solution, they want the settlements dismantled. Why? Why did Israel have to force all Jews out of Gaza? I mean, fully 20% of its citizens are Arabs, with the most freedom of any Arabs in the Middle East (go ask any Israeli-Arab if 1) they would rather live in, say, Saudi ARabia, and 2) if they plan on moving to a Palestinian state, once created? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no, and no). If Israel kicked those 1 million Israeli-Arabs out, there'd be an international outcry. BUt when the Palestinians insist on doing just that, ethnically cleansing all Jews from their land, no one says a peep.

Why can't there be Palestinian-Jews, Jews living under Palestinian control, just as there are Israeli-Arabs in Israel? Why is 20% of Israel Arab, and growing, but Palestinian land must be 'Jew-free'?
 
Opening the weekly cabinet session Sunday, July 19, Israeli prime minister Binyamin Netanyahu sharply rejected the US State Department demand handed to Israeli ambassador Michael Oran to put a stop to construction work at the Shepherd's Hotel site in Jerusalem. The abandoned hotel is located between the Arab neighborhood of Sheikh Jarrah and Mount Scopus, where the Hebrew University and Hadassah are situated.

Netanyahu stressed the issue of construction in Jerusalem, capital of Israel and the Jewish people, is not open to discussion. Hundreds of Arab residents have purchased apartments in the west of the city without difficulty, he pointed out, and there is no bar on Jews buying or building on the eastern side. Building permits are issued by city authorities for Jews and Arabs alike in the open, undivided city of Jerusalem, said Netanyahu.

The Shepherd's Hotel site originally belonged to the Grand Mufti Haj Amin al-Husseini and his heirs turned it into a hotel in the years between 1948 and 1967 when Jews were forbidden to set foot in Jerusalem. In the 1980s, the Husseinis sold the site to American businessman Irwin Moskowitz who intends building a Jewish housing estate there.

The left-wing Meretz party leader Haim Oron predictably supported the US demand issued in response to a protest from Palestinian Authority chairman Mahmoud Abbas. This circular process has become a regular feature of US-Israeli relations, usually beginning with left-wing Israeli activists "alerting" the US administration to Jewish construction activity on the West Bank and Jerusalem in order to trigger a Palestinian complaint and invoke American pressure on the Israeli government.

Moskowitz has devoted himself to purchasing land from Palestinians in east Jerusalem for the construction of Jewish neighborhoods. Likewise, Jewish neighborhoods abutting on east Jerusalem and the West Bank, such as French Hill and Pisgat Zeev, have in recent years attracted a growing number of Palestinians apartment purchasers.


See, that's how business is done. Jews building in 'Arab areas', Arabs buying in Jewish areas. Sweet. Sure beats blowing babies up on busses, huh?

I love how the State Dept asks that Israel stop building, as if gov't policy made it happen; but they ignore that the Arab owner sold it to Jews of his own accord, the new owner planned to build there of his own accord, and that's as far as that goes.
 
See, that's how business is done. Jews building in 'Arab areas', Arabs buying in Jewish areas. Sweet. Sure beats blowing babies up on busses, huh?

I love how the State Dept asks that Israel stop building, as if gov't policy made it happen; but they ignore that the Arab owner sold it to Jews of his own accord, the new owner planned to build there of his own accord, and that's as far as that goes.

You left out a few things:

Fascism Needs an Enemy
by Ran HaCohen

The war against the Israeli Palestinians is felt in the judicial system, where for example a Jewish farmer who shot Arab burglars in the back while they were fleeing from his farm, killing one and wounding another, was acquitted (and is now celebrated as a national hero).

As Orly Noy writes (YNet, in Hebrew), "given the judicial and public atmosphere in Israel these days, nothing is more predictable than the acquittal of a Jew who exercised violence, even extreme, against an Arab citizen."

In another case, a Jewish man who murdered a taxi driver just because he was Arab was deemed "unfit to face trial."

A senior army officer who ordered his soldier to shoot a handcuffed, blindfolded Palestinian at point-blank range was merely accused of "improper conduct." This accusation was found unreasonable even by the Israeli Supreme Court.
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The discrimination against Israeli Arabs, of course, is not new; even the official Israeli Or Commission stated in 2003 that "government handling of the Arab sector has been primarily neglectful and discriminatory."
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But whereas the early 2000s could give the impression the discrimination was diminishing, the last years show an opposite movement.

The landmark seems to be the amendment to the naturalization law of December 2003, which bars Palestinians from the occupied territories from obtaining any residency status or citizenship in Israel through marriage to an Israeli citizen, thereby preventing them from living in Israel with their spouses.

Heavily criticized by Israeli and international human rights groups, the law is aimed exclusively against Israel’s Palestinian minority, whose members often marry across the Green Line.

The flow of laws and regulations against Israeli Arabs increased exponentially.

A year ago, a forgotten British Mandate regulation from 1939, banning the import of books printed in enemy countries, was suddenly revived, closing the import gates on Arabic schoolbooks and all kinds of literature printed in Lebanon (a major publishing center in Arabic) and other Arab countries. No security issues are at stake: all imported books are subject to censorship anyway.
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A similar provocation is the transportation minister’s recent order to wipe Arabic place names off road signs, replacing them with their Hebrew names.
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Thus place names, including those of mixed or Arab towns like Yaffa (Jaffa) or Shafa’amr, should be publicly spelled in Arabic (!) according to their Hebrew form – Yafo or Shefar’am. While all over the world, from Canada to Australia, former colonialist nations recognize and respect the cultural heritage of, the rights of, and the evils done to indigenous minorities, colonialist Israel is eager to wipe them out – politically, culturally, and physically.

A further attack on the Israeli-Palestinian minority is the suggested law to ban the commemoration of the Nakba, the catastrophe in 1948 in which hundreds of Palestinian villages were destroyed and hundreds of thousands became refugees.
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Though its original form, including jailing individuals who do commemorate it, has been softened to a formulation forbidding only public-supported organs from commemorating the event, the intention is clear – as was that of the (currently rejected) law demanding a declaration of loyalty from every Israeli citizen.

The attack on Israel’s Palestinian minority has deep ideological roots in extreme nationalistic purism, but it is mainly politically motivated. The Israeli Arabs, despite six decades of discrimination, have been an incredibly loyal minority. The Israeli right-wing clearly wishes to put an end to this loyalty, hoping the incitement will lead Israeli Arabs to some form of violent resistance, from street violence to terror attacks.

This would create the desired atmosphere of suspicion, fear, and hatred that fascism always needs in order to flourish. An Arab-Israeli Intifada is the wet dream of many Israeli right-wingers: nationally and internationally, it would enable them to present Israel once again as a threatened victim of Arab/Muslim/Gentile persecution, not as the rogue colonialist regional power it actually is.
 
Straw man much? You still refuse to answer the question. Why can 20% of Israelis be Arabs, but no Palestinians can be Jews? Why must Gaza and the West bank be Jew free, when 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab? Why does the State Dept make a fuss over an Arab selling his land to a Jew, who then decides to develop that land? Why doesn't the State DEpt make a fuss over Arabs buying in Jewish neighborhoods?

Quit deflecting, and answer the question!
 
Straw man much? You still refuse to answer the question. Why can 20% of Israelis be Arabs, but no Palestinians can be Jews? Why must Gaza and the West bank be Jew free, when 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab? Why does the State Dept make a fuss over an Arab selling his land to a Jew, who then decides to develop that land? Why doesn't the State DEpt make a fuss over Arabs buying in Jewish neighborhoods?

Quit deflecting, and answer the question!

The Peel report may help you with some answers:


A Royal Commission was established in 1937, under the direction of Lord Peel, to determine the causes of the 1936 revolt. The Peel Commission concluded that the two primary factors were Palestinian desire for national independence and Palestinian fear of the establishment of a Zionist colony on their land.

The Peel Report analyzed a series of other factors with uncommon candor. These were:

The spread of the Arab nationalist spirit outside Palestine

Increasing Jewish immigration after 1933

The ability of the Zionists to dominate public opinion in Britain because of the tacit support of the government

Lack of Arab confidence in the good intentions of the British government

Palestinian fear of continued land purchases by Jews from absentee feudal landowners who sold off their landholdings and evicted the Palestinian peasants who had worked the land

The evasiveness of the Mandatory government about its intentions regarding Palestinian sovereignty.

The national movement consisted of the urban bourgeoisie, feudal landowners, religious leaders and representatives of peasants and workers.

Its demands were:

An immediate stop to Zionist immigration

Cessation and prohibition of the transfer of the ownership of Arab lands to Zionist colonists

The establishment of a democratic government in which Palestinians would have the controlling voice.


Ghassan Kanafani, The 1936-1939 Revolt in Palestine

Also

The Balfour Declaration

Weizmann secured from the British what the Zionist leaders had sought simultaneously from the Ottoman and German Imperial governments. On November 2, 1917, the Balfour Declaration was issued.

It stated, in part:

His Majesty’s Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish People, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object

The Zionists were cynical in the delineation of their claim to Palestine. One moment they would assert that Palestine was a wasteland visited by occasional nomads; in the next breath they proposed to subjugate the very Palestinian population they had attempted to render invisible. A. D. Gordon, himself, repeatedly declared that the Palestinians whom, he insisted did not exist, should be prevented, by force from cultivating the soil.

This translated into the total expulsion of non-Jews from the Jewish “fatherland”. A like description informed pronouncements by British and Zionist leaders in their plans for the Palestinian population. By the time of the Balfour Declaration, British imperial armies had occupied most of the Ottoman Empire in the Middle East, having enlisted Arab leaders to fight the Turks under British direction in exchange for British assurances of “self-determination”.

While the Zionists in their propaganda insisted that Palestine was unpopulated, in their dealings with their imperial sponsors they made clear that subjugation was the order of the day and offered themselves as the instrument.

The British responded in kind. The Balfour Declaration also contained a passage intended to lull Arab feudal leaders shocked by the treachery of the British Empire in handing over to the Zionists the very land in which Arab self-determination had been promised:

it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine.

The British had for years used the Zionist leadership to enlist support for its war against Imperial Germany from all the major Jewish capitalists and banking concerns in the United States and Great Britain. With Weizmann they prepared to use Zionist colonization of Palestine as the instrument for political control over the Palestinian population.

The land without a people for a people without a land was in fact a country in ferment against colonial subjugation.

Former Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour, himself, was brutally explicit in memoranda for the eyes of officials, despite the lip service for public consumption about the “civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish [sic] communities in Palestine”.

Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad is rooted in present needs, in future hopes of far profounder import than the desires of the 700,000-plus Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.

John Norton Moore, ed., The Arab-Israeli Conflict (Princeton, N.J.: The American Society of International Law, Princeton University Press, 1977), p.885

Cited in Harry N. Howard, The King Commission: An American Inquiry in the Middle East (Beirut: 1963)
 
Palestinian fear of continued land purchases by Jews from absentee feudal landowners who sold off their landholdings and evicted the Palestinian peasants who had worked the land

)

What is this, cut and paste random articles which you find interesting? You still won't answer my question.


I find the part you bolded above hilarious. You keep claiming Jews stole Palestinian land, it's not Jewish land, and citing sources to support that, but the Peel report says otherwise.

Peel said:
Palestinian fear of land purchases.

Jews bought the land, my contention the whole time, but you've tried to imply it was stolen. It wasn't. How the hell do you blame Jews for the Palestinians being sold out by their brothers? Why shouldn't an ARab sell his land to a Jew, or simply the highest bidder? Do you really believe that if I own an apartment building, but live there 'in absentee', and decide to sell my complex to someone, I'm somehow committing a human rights violation by evicting my tentants? It's my building, I'll sell if I want to. My tentants don't own it, or have a say, even if they lived there for 3 generations. Get the **** out.

The Palestinians living on that land could've made a bid to buy it from the landowner too.

It's funny, people like you just can't understand, or believe, that Jews and Arabs do business ALL DAY LONG, always have, despite their disagreements. This complex in Jerusalem is case in point, the one in the news this week. The Husseini's, the same ones who spurred the killing of scores of Jews in the 1920's and 30's, who's grandfather met with Hitler to help with the Final Solution, sold that land that the State Dept is pissed off about, to a Jewish American businessman. This businessman owns that land free and clear, and wants to develop it, but it's somehow become an international incident.

Why didn't the Husseini's sell to an Arab, if it's so ****ing important that it remain in Arab hands? Why did he sell to a Jew?

You know why? Because no one else gave a **** about that land, until someone's latent sense of anti-semitism and entitlement woke up, and they realized they'd realized there'd be Jews moving in. (Forget that they are A-OK moving into Jewish neighborhoods.)
 
What is this, cut and paste random articles which you find interesting? You still won't answer my question.


I find the part you bolded above hilarious. You keep claiming Jews stole Palestinian land, it's not Jewish land, and citing sources to support that, but the Peel report says otherwise.



Jews bought the land, my contention the whole time, but you've tried to imply it was stolen. It wasn't. How the hell do you blame Jews for the Palestinians being sold out by their brothers? Why shouldn't an ARab sell his land to a Jew, or simply the highest bidder? Do you really believe that if I own an apartment building, but live there 'in absentee', and decide to sell my complex to someone, I'm somehow committing a human rights violation by evicting my tentants? It's my building, I'll sell if I want to. My tentants don't own it, or have a say, even if they lived there for 3 generations. Get the **** out.

The Palestinians living on that land could've made a bid to buy it from the landowner too.

It's funny, people like you just can't understand, or believe, that Jews and Arabs do business ALL DAY LONG, always have, despite their disagreements. This complex in Jerusalem is case in point, the one in the news this week. The Husseini's, the same ones who spurred the killing of scores of Jews in the 1920's and 30's, who's grandfather met with Hitler to help with the Final Solution, sold that land that the State Dept is pissed off about, to a Jewish American businessman. This businessman owns that land free and clear, and wants to develop it, but it's somehow become an international incident.

Why didn't the Husseini's sell to an Arab, if it's so ****ing important that it remain in Arab hands? Why did he sell to a Jew?

You know why? Because no one else gave a **** about that land, until someone's latent sense of anti-semitism and entitlement woke up, and they realized they'd realized there'd be Jews moving in. (Forget that they are A-OK moving into Jewish neighborhoods.)

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"More than a third of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are built on privately owned Palestinian land, an Israeli campaign group has reported.
Peace Now says nearly 40% of the land the settlements sit on is, according to official data, "effectively stolen" from Palestinian landowners.

This, the group says, is a violation of Israel's own laws.

Settlements in the occupied West Bank are illegal under international law, although Israel rejects this.

About 430,000 Jews live in these residential areas in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. "
 
Sure, and 60% was bought. The 40%...? Well, the Palestinians fled to make room for the Arabs to kill all the Jews in 47-48. They ****ed up.

Bottom line? As I've said here before several times: palestinians have no claim to a country. Individual Palestinians DO have claim to individual plots of land. They MUST be compensated for their loss, monetarily or otherwise.

That's more than you'll say.
 
Sure, and 60% was bought. The 40%...? Well, the Palestinians fled to make room for the Arabs to kill all the Jews in 47-48. They ****ed up.

Bottom line? As I've said here before several times: palestinians have no claim to a country. Individual Palestinians DO have claim to individual plots of land. They MUST be compensated for their loss, monetarily or otherwise.

That's more than you'll say.

I'm fresh out of cookies.
 
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