Holy Cow... Aegeline No More

[996ttelise]

. . . And a case reported in Ireland. There is much info out there and some explanations regarding the reporting issues and many of the questions asked by same individuals over and over in every thread. Research, understand and make informed decisions.

 

[Afi140]

I think Hawaii could have just noticed It first due to it being a small archipelago with only a few large hospitals. It would stand out more in comparison to mainland u.s where each state is significantly larger with many more hospitals. Just a thought though.

 

[kissdadookie]

I think Hawaii could have just noticed It first due to it being a small archipelago with only a few large hospitals. It would stand out more in comparison to mainland u.s where each state is significantly larger with many more hospitals. Just a thought though.

Yeah, I would reckon that that things would have been more concentrated in Hawaii and would have been more acutely noticed than mainland US.

 

[Geoforce]

Remember some people were convinced Craze was legit and fought tooth and nail on the forums defending it. We can't be sure it's the supplement yet, but lol at those who absolutely believe companies so much that they can't even fathom mistakes.

 

[De__eB]

I think Hawaii could have just noticed It first due to it being a small archipelago with only a few large hospitals. It would stand out more in comparison to mainland u.s where each state is significantly larger with many more hospitals. Just a thought though.

That makes no sense at all. Do you even statistics?

 

[kissdadookie]

Remember some people were convinced Craze was legit and fought tooth and nail on the forums defending it. We can't be sure it's the supplement yet, but lol at those who absolutely believe companies so much that they can't even fathom mistakes.

Can't really count the Craze Dendrobex issue a mistake, lulz.

That makes no sense at all. Do you even statistics?

Wouldn't it be harder to notice the outbreak if incidences were more spread out though as opposed to being more localized and concentrated?

 

[Afi140]

^thats what I was thinking. Oahu and the big island are the major ones and their hospitals are few and far between. Drive around the whole island in 2 hrs. Again this was just a thought and a logical one at that

 

[Geoforce]

Can't really count the Craze Dendrobex issue a mistake, lulz.



Wouldn't it be harder to notice the outbreak if incidences were more spread out though as opposed to being more localized and concentrated?

Mistakes may have been a poor term. The supplement industry has a long shady history and some people act like nothing could be more shocking than another chapter added to it.

I don't know if OEP is to blame or not, but remember Craze had far more defenders of it has to be legit than people calling it out. Again I will say it's too early to pass judgment either way.

 

[kissdadookie]

Mistakes may have been a poor term. The supplement industry has a long shady history and some people act like nothing could be more shocking than another chapter added to it.

I don't know if OEP is to blame or not, but remember Craze had far more defenders of it has to be legit than people calling it out. Again I will say it's too early to pass judgment either way.

I agree with that sentiment.

 

[De__eB]

Why would incidences be spread out in other states? Why would they be more concentrated in Hawaii?

If OEP has some ingredient in it that causes hepatitis, you're not going to have 40 cases in one place, and 5 throughout the other 99.6% of the population just because of how few hospitals there are in Hawaii. There would be thousands elsewhere.

 

[Afi140]

Why would incidences be spread out in other states? Why would they be more concentrated in Hawaii? If OEP has some ingredient in it that causes hepatitis, you're not going to have 40 cases in one place, and 5 throughout the other 99.6% of the population just because of how few hospitals there are in Hawaii.

Agreed. I personally had high liver values when on micro and bronkaid over spring. I talked with coop about it but I blamed bronkaid. I told my dr I was on supps but he didn't ask which ones. He just told me to stop. I had a stomach ultra sound etc and after 6 weeks they finally dropped. Either way it sucks for the people just trying to shed a few.

 

[kissdadookie]

Why would incidences be spread out in other states? Why would they be more concentrated in Hawaii?

If OEP has some ingredient in it that causes hepatitis, you're not going to have 40 cases in one place, and 5 throughout the other 99.6% of the population just because of how few hospitals there are in Hawaii. There would be thousands elsewhere.

That is a very good point actually.

 

[996ttelise]

Why would incidences be spread out in other states? Why would they be more concentrated in Hawaii?

If OEP has some ingredient in it that causes hepatitis, you're not going to have 40 cases in one place, and 5 throughout the other 99.6% of the population just because of how few hospitals there are in Hawaii. There would be thousands elsewhere.

Several doctors and CDC have addressed this.

43 cases have been linked to OEP in Hawaii.

FDA says 12 other states have reported cases linked to OEP since end of October and now that doctors are looking for possible OEP link in other states when patient presents with liver failure. Biopsies, labs, presentation, age, health and etc. are also examined and compared with Hawaii cases.

 

[Geoforce]

Several doctors and CDC have addressed this.

43 cases have been linked to OEP in Hawaii.

FDA says 12 other states have reported cases linked to OEP since end of October and now that doctors are looking for possible OEP link in other states when patient presents with liver failure. Biopsies, labs, presentation, age, health and etc. are also examined and compared with Hawaii cases.

It's also important for people to realize that a link can exist without 100% everyone has this issue certainty. Not everyone who smokes develops lung cancer. It seems as if some people are coming to the conclusion of "well if it's OEP then everyone who ever used it should have this." That's not true.

 

[996ttelise]

It's also important for people to realize that a link can exist without 100% everyone has this issue certainty. Not everyone who smokes develops lung cancer. It seems as if some people are coming to the conclusion of "well if it's OEP then everyone who ever used it should have this." That's not true.

Correct. Many may have stopped taking upon becoming symptomatic. Doctors and hospitals do not typically report liver failure. I will say that my urine became extremely dark once when taking Versa-1. I stopped and it went back to normal.

-----

"The Aloha State may be especially sensitive to detecting severe hepatitis outbreaks because only one hospital in the state can handle acute liver failure and transplants. That hospital also happens to be across the street from the state health department, Park said."

"Hawaii health officials worry there are more hepatitis cases on the mainland that haven’t been connected to the outbreak. Hepatitis is not typically an illness that clinicians report to health departments, especially if they are not aware of a larger problem, Park said."

 

[thescience]

You do realize that this was non-viral non-contagious acute hepatitis we are talking about here right? It's the kind of hepatitis that is brought on usually from heavy alcohol use or drugs uses.So this theory of yours about the environmental contamination in the water and such doesn't make sense because 1) there would probably need to be actual toxicity in the water 2) water apart from well water is tested and treated for toxicity and carcinogens (since Hawaii is part if the US, I'm guessing EPA does regulate their drinking water systems) 3) contamination of the water supply will lead to far more than 30 something cases of illness.

first off, i dont have any such "theory" that oep is or isnt responsible; the results will determine that. if everything was contained to hawaii, as was the discussion before buick introduced cases in connecticut to this thread, i wouldnt think twice filthy hawaii is the real culprit, and the disproportionate number of cases there (and the fact that many there who didnt take oep got it) speak to my sentiments. that said, its safe to assume water has problems anywhere if it's public. you would be surprized by what government deems safe, and all it takes is that one substance that causes the liver inflammation. hell, anyone who doesnt excrete enough bile can get non-viral hep, so this matter hasnt been determined. i have a friend doing social work in NH; they cant give ANY of their clients tap water because of regular blood testing. you see, they administer so many drugs that they have to test levels regularly, but there were so MANY drugs of such high amounts IN THE TOWN WATER that they would told, in strict confidence by the state, not to let their clients drink it as it would mess up their bloods. THAT WAS NH, where there were undesireable elements in the water and things were tested (and the public wasnt informed)

 

[kissdadookie]

first off, i dont have any such "theory" that oep is or isnt responsible; the results will determine that. if everything was contained to hawaii, as was the discussion before buick introduced cases in connecticut to this thread, i wouldnt think twice filthy hawaii is the real culprit, and the disproportionate number of cases there (and the fact that many there who didnt take oep got it) speak to my sentiments. that said, its safe to assume water has problems anywhere if it's public. you would be surprized by what government deems safe, and all it takes is that one substance that causes the liver inflammation. hell, anyone who doesnt excrete enough bile can get non-viral hep, so this matter hasnt been determined. i have a friend doing social work in NH; they cant give ANY of their clients tap water because of regular blood testing. you see, they administer so many drugs that they have to test levels regularly, but there were so MANY drugs of such high amounts IN THE TOWN WATER that they would told, in strict confidence by the state, not to let their clients drink it as it would mess up their bloods. THAT WAS NH, where there were undesireable elements in the water and things were tested (and the public wasnt informed)

I'm going to be a dunce and ask, where is NH? New Hampshire?

 

[thescience]

I'm going to be a dunce and ask, where is NH?

New Hampshire.

 

[kissdadookie]

New Hampshire.

Gotcha.

 

[thescience]

Gotcha.

apparently, they recycle toilet water and put it into people's taps, but the filters dont filter everything and the drugs get through. hospitals, social workers ect have to flush expired meds ect down the toilet legally (so that junkies dont find them in the rubbish.) i can see why hawaii wouldnt want to reach any determinations, leaving the matter instead to the big boys; you think HAWAII wants that headache on them?

 

[kissdadookie]

apparently, they recycle toilet water and put it into people's taps, but the filters dont filter everything and the drugs get through. hospitals, social workers ect have to flush expired meds ect down the toilet legally (so that junkies dont find them in the rubbish.) i can see why hawaii wouldnt want to reach any determinations, leaving the matter instead to the big boys; you think HAWAII wants that headache on them?

Technically all water recirculates but it's only going to be as good as the septic system was designed. I don't know about NH septic systems but for NYC, I know that our poop is a very important element to our septic system as our poop is what does much of the enzymatic actions needed for the earlier phases of our water filtration system as it makes it's way to the river and then we also have a system of "nets" which catches the big masses in the water (toilet water and gutter water all goes down into the same septic system in NYC).

I'm still thinking that at minimum, a bad batch of OEP is most probably a problem here. At minimum it's probably something to do with OEP because that's just too much of a coincidence when the sample of patients consists of 80+% of them having the common link of using OEP. The remainder could very possibly be tylenol overdose or something as common for all we know (which you would be shocked as to how common this is, tylenol is one heck of a very easy to overdose drug, if you double the recommended dose, that's most probably not good, and could very possibly be lethal). I mean, you can easily be taking tylenol without knowing it since acetaminophen is in a LOT of things including DayQuil I think.

 

[Wilsy7]

Wait, what?


Did you read that before posting it? Or any of this thread for that matter?

Cliffs:

Not all of the cases involve OEP.
Not all of the cases were isolated to Hawaii.
Not all of the cases are even in the US.

Not all but most cases! Just an observation.

 

[thescience]

Technically all water recirculates but it's only going to be as good as the septic system was designed. I don't know about NH septic systems but for NYC, I know that our poop is a very important element to our septic system as our poop is what does much of the enzymatic actions needed for the earlier phases of our water filtration system as it makes it's way to the river and then we also have a system of "nets" which catches the big masses in the water (toilet water and gutter water all goes down into the same septic system in NYC).I'm still thinking that at minimum, a bad batch of OEP is most probably a problem here. At minimum it's probably something to do with OEP because that's just too much of a coincidence when the sample of patients consists of 80+% of them having the common link of using OEP. The remainder could very possibly be tylenol overdose or something as common for all we know (which you would be shocked as to how common this is, tylenol is one heck of a very easy to overdose drug, if you double the recommended dose, that's most probably not good, and could very possibly be lethal). I mean, you can easily be taking tylenol without knowing it since acetaminophen is in a LOT of things including DayQuil I think.

well, in the article, hawaii ruled out the bad batch theory, though i dont know how they did.: "Park said Hawaii health officials cannot precisely identify the "actual issue about the product.""For that, we rely on the FDA for their product testing and their product investigation," she said, although Hawaii officials have ruled out speculation that a bad batch of OxyElite Pro sickened people."http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/news/2013/11/usplabs-to-eliminate-aegeline-from-supplements-am.aspx

 

[kissdadookie]

well, in the article, hawaii ruled out the bad batch theory, though i dont know how they did.: "Park said Hawaii health officials cannot precisely identify the "actual issue about the product.""For that, we rely on the FDA for their product testing and their product investigation," she said, although Hawaii officials have ruled out speculation that a bad batch of OxyElite Pro sickened people."http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/news/2013/11/usplabs-to-eliminate-aegeline-from-supplements-am.aspx

I wonder what spurred it all of a sudden if it's not an off batch, then again, I don't think anybody has bothered doing 3rd party analysis on the stuff yet USPLabs kind of pulled the stuff pretty immediately after it ended up being mainstream news. Or maybe someone effed up on synthesizing some aegeline there (USPLabs has stated as much, that the aegeline they use is synthesized). Sigh, so many possibilities but I doubt that USPLabs is going to really make much of of a statement beyond what they have said in press releases thus far.

 

[jimbuick]

Why do you keep mis-citing facts and statistics to downplay these issues. I am sure your Google still works so it would be easy to see that as of the end of October they tied 56 cases to OEP and there have been recent reported cases in Ohio, California,Connecticut and someone on here reported New Zealand which I know you saw in another thread. You can be skeptical, blame the FDA and etc. all you want, but at least use accurate data and information when trying assure others everything is a okay or just a misunderstanding by the mean ole FDA.

. . . And a case reported in Ireland. There is much info out there and some explanations regarding the reporting issues and many of the questions asked by same individuals over and over in every thread. Research, understand and make informed decisions.

Calm down there bud.


I am not attempting to downplay anything, I don't actively look up this info and only know what I know about it based off of the ones that I read that were posted here. So, the only article I've seen about it is for the one in Connecticut.

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some in every state, but I haven't seen any accounts about other states with my own eyes.

Which is all I've said in here.

Edit: And, on top of that, I even said I don't know for sure if OEP is the cause and that I wouldn't recommend anyone use it until we know more. I stated the fact, because it's a fact, that there were more cases in the same area that weren't related to OEP. And, I never said anything about the FDA having any agenda, its just my opinion that for other people to have the same issue in the same place without the supplement that it may be something else entirely.

 

[thescience]

I wonder what spurred it all of a sudden if it's not an off batch, then again, I don't think anybody has bothered doing 3rd party analysis on the stuff yet USPLabs kind of pulled the stuff pretty immediately after it ended up being mainstream news. Or maybe someone effed up on synthesizing some aegeline there (USPLabs has stated as much, that the aegeline they use is synthesized). Sigh, so many possibilities but I doubt that USPLabs is going to really make much of of a statement beyond what they have said in press releases thus far.

yeah. as general advice, id recommend any supplement company that believes their product is safe to fight issues all the way to the burger. thats what lef did. fda had 55 charges brought up against them. bear in mind FDA has unlimited legal funds (taxpayer). in the end, it cost lef 50million i think but they beat off every single charge, and then the fda (ie taxpayers) had to pay it all back. i personally think dmaa was smeared; ask anyone and they'll tell you about the guy who died. but now its only about blood pressure:Invalid Link Removed

 

[Jiigzz]

When the CDC and FDA find out whats amiss, we'll have our answer. Were trying to solve a crime based only on media reports and, well, that just doesn't seem logical.

 

[Spaniard]

apparently, they recycle toilet water and put it into people's taps, but the filters dont filter everything and the drugs get through. hospitals, social workers ect have to flush expired meds ect down the toilet legally (so that junkies dont find them in the rubbish.) i can see why hawaii wouldnt want to reach any determinations, leaving the matter instead to the big boys; you think HAWAII wants that headache on them?

This whole entire post is just completely ridiculous. Come on man. You're singling out their water supply when soooooo many other states operate the exact same way. No water filtration systems filter out all pharmaceuticals. They waste them into the toilet... seriously come on man. Where do you get your facts?

 

[Quadzilla99]

When the CDC and FDA find out whats amiss, we'll have our answer. Were trying to solve a crime based only on media reports and, well, that just doesn't seem logical.

I prefer to make my conclusions first and then look at the evidence later, if at all

 

[kissdadookie]

This whole entire post is just completely ridiculous. Come on man. You're singling out their water supply when soooooo many other states operate the exact same way. No water filtration systems filter out all pharmaceuticals. They waste them into the toilet... seriously come on man. Where do you get your facts?

I flush many a things down the toilet, just sayin

 

[thescience]

This whole entire post is just completely ridiculous. Come on man. You're singling out their water supply when soooooo many other states operate the exact same way. No water filtration systems filter out all pharmaceuticals. They waste them into the toilet... seriously come on man. Where do you get your facts?

what fact are you disputing bro? i said there are drugs in tap water, and you counter that by saying there are drugs in tap water?

 

[Spaniard]

what fact are you disputing bro? i said there are drugs in tap water, and you counter that by saying there are drugs in tap water?

There are drugs in all tap water

 

[De__eB]

yeah. as general advice, id recommend any supplement company that believes their product is safe to fight issues all the way to the burger. thats what lef did. fda had 55 charges brought up against them. bear in mind FDA has unlimited legal funds (taxpayer). in the end, it cost lef 50million i think but they beat off every single charge, and then the fda (ie taxpayers) had to pay it all back. i personally think dmaa was smeared; ask anyone and they'll tell you about the guy who died. but now its only about blood pressure:Invalid Link Removed

Whether DMAA, Aegeline, or any other ingredient is smeared or not does not make them legal to sell.

You can think that DMAA is safe, and a great ingredient all you want and the fda does not give one single ****.

An ingredient is legal to market as a supplement if:

-It explicitly falls into one of the categories listed in the text of the legislation
OR
-It was marketed a dietary supplement or consumed in the food supply in the united states prior to 1994
OR
-The NDI process is undergone successfully.

"Synthetic Aegeline" does not meet any of those requirements.

What I don't understand is why USPLabs wouldn't have performed a safety study on a decent pool of people and submitted an NDI.
The retail value of the inventory they're destroying in this most recent incident is $22 MILLION.
They could have spent a few hundred grand, and probably averted this whole mess.

 

[thescience]

There are drugs in all tap water

well then you should support what i know about NH, not question the fact of it.

They waste them into the toilet... seriously come on man. Where do you get your facts?

and yeah, thats how controlled substances are disposed of in institutions. when a sleeve of optional morphine tablets expire, they dont pop them into the trash so that some opportunist can end up with them. you cant have social workers who handle the stuff for $10/hr stick them in a waste bucket and assure everyone they are disposed of. a nurse trainer oversees a ritual toilet flushing. its written into the protocall

 

[996ttelise]

yeah. as general advice, id recommend any supplement company that believes their product is safe to fight issues all the way to the burger. thats what lef did. fda had 55 charges brought up against them. bear in mind FDA has unlimited legal funds (taxpayer). in the end, it cost lef 50million i think but they beat off every single charge, and then the fda (ie taxpayers) had to pay it all back. i personally think dmaa was smeared; ask anyone and they'll tell you about the guy who died. but now its only about blood pressure:Invalid Link Removed

What about other 4 deaths and the 86 health related issues reported. Candidly, I have no issues with DMAA. I was teethed on the real stuff back in late 80s and remember when we could buy GHB on same isle as Hot Stuff and that crazy orange preworkout. DMA, aegeline, higenamine, and all stuff today is just knock off loop hole engineered trash buzzes compared compared to 80s and early to mid 90s. I actually think the stuff today is less clean designer type buzzes that are more dangerous or questionable now that good stuff has be outlawed.

 

[Geoforce]

Whether DMAA, Aegeline, or any other ingredient is smeared or not does not make them legal to sell.

You can think that DMAA is safe, and a great ingredient all you want and the fda does not give one single ****.

An ingredient is legal to market as a supplement if:

-It explicitly falls into one of the categories listed in the text of the legislation
OR
-It was marketed a dietary supplement or consumed in the food supply in the united states prior to 1994
OR
-The NDI process is undergone successfully.

"Synthetic Aegeline" does not meet any of those requirements.

What I don't understand is why USPLabs wouldn't have performed a safety study on a decent pool of people and submitted an NDI.
The retail value of the inventory they're destroying in this most recent incident is $22 MILLION.
They could have spent a few hundred grand, and probably averted this whole mess.

Where did you get the 22 million figure from? Not disputing it just genuinely curious. I had no idea USP was that big to begin with!

 

[thescience]

What about other 4 deaths and the 86 health related issues reported. Candidly, I have no issues with DMAA. I was teethed on the real stuff back in late 80s and remember when we could buy GHB on same isle as Hot Stuff and that crazy orange per workout. DMA, aegeline, higamine, and all stuff today is just knock off loop hole engineered trash buzzes compared compared to 80s and early to mid 90s. I actually think the stuff today is less clean designer type buzzes that are more dangerous or questionable now that good stuff has be outlawed.

thats my point. those people didnt die because of dmaa, but everyone still thinks they did. see the article

 

[Jiigzz]

I prefer to make my conclusions first and then look at the evidence later, if at all

Lol,

Us forum folk love to solve crimes

 

[De__eB]

Where did you get the 22 million figure from? Not disputing it just genuinely curious. I had no idea USP was that big to begin with!

Invalid Link Removed

In addition to the recall of certain OxyElite Pro products, USPLabs assured FDA officials that it will destroy warehouse stocks of the supplement, with a retail value of about $22 million. FDA will oversee the destruction of the product.

 

[Jiigzz]

Thats a lot of stock. The retail value is probably inflated to 'actual' retail price and not the prices you see on places such as NP.

But its still a lot of money.

 

[De__eB]

Where did you get the 22 million figure from? Not disputing it just genuinely curious. I had no idea USP was that big to begin with!

Think of it this way.

There are 7000 GNC locations.

If each of them has 20 bottles of OEP in stock that is 140,000 bottles on the shelves in one supply chain at a retail price of $61.

That's $8.5m retail of one SKU of the impacted products, on the shelves of one store, not counting warehoused stock.

 

[Quadzilla99]

De__eB I like you buddy, but I gotta know..did it hurt when you pulled those numbers out of your ass?

 

[De__eB]

De__eB I like you buddy, but I gotta know..did it hurt when you pulled those numbers out of your ass?

There's actually like 7300 GNC locations per their own corporate documents.

The MSRP for OEP from cached GNC/USPLabs web pages and stores still selling it is $61.99

And the # of bottles was just what I would guess I've seen on shelves at any given time.

Did it hurt when I tried to provide a ballpark estimate of scope for someone who didn't realize how big some of the large supplement companies are or something?

 

[996ttelise]

thats my point. those people didnt die because of dmaa, but everyone still thinks they did. see the article

My bad man, I read your post and seemed to reference soldier in the singular. Wasn't there some long distance runner lady that also died? The report seemed to indicated that no pose significant risk at low recommended doses, but did state the finding were inconclusive and perhaps needed additional research. You are right about it being as safe as anything else. My recollection is that Jacked initially came under fire by millitary when people started popping positive or false positives for meth.

 

[Quadzilla99]

There's actually like 7300 GNC locations per their own corporate documents.

The MSRP for OEP from cached GNC/USPLabs web pages and stores still selling it is $61.99

And the # of bottles was just what I would guess I've seen on shelves at any given time.

Did it hurt when I tried to provide a ballpark estimate of scope for someone who didn't realize how big some of the large supplement companies are or something?

No I figured it was in the millions but trying to guess the exact amount is going pretty far into mental masturbation territory

 

[thescience]

My bad man, I read your post and seemed to reference soldier in the singular. Wasn't there some long distance runner lady that also died? The report seemed to indicated that no pose significant risk at low recommended doses, but did state the finding were inconclusive and perhaps needed additional research. You are right about it being as safe as anything else. My recollection is that Jacked initially came under fire by millitary when people started popping positive or false positives for meth.

yeah, you never know what people are doing. especially dieters. i know women who take diet pills that give them the runs. they crap 4 times a day, but they stick with it because theyre losing weight (probably from diarrhea). others exceed recommended dosages on top of insanely restricted diets. people are neurotic about losing weight, so i wish companies would stand by their products, if they believed they were safe, so that we'd know for sure.

 

[kissdadookie]

I should have named this thread Aegeline AND Tembamide No More. Oh well.

 

[Afi140]

I prefer to make my conclusions first and then look at the evidence later, if at all

Sounds like the senate. Pelosi if I recall. Let's just get the bill passed. Then read it lol. But I do want this all sorted out ASAP and I want my COOP BACK! Well..... Our coop I guess lol.

 

[Jiigzz]

I should have named this thread Aegeline AND Tembamide No More. Oh well.

hindsight right?

 

[Spaniard]

well then you should support what i know about NH, not question the fact of it. and yeah, thats how controlled substances are disposed of in institutions. when a sleeve of optional morphine tablets expire, they dont pop them into the trash so that some opportunist can end up with them. you cant have social workers who handle the stuff for $10/hr stick them in a waste bucket and assure everyone they are disposed of. a nurse trainer oversees a ritual toilet flushing. its written into the protocall

My point is that you can't blame the septic system. Most municipal septic systems don't filter out pharmaceuticals. It doesn't matter tho arguing with you is like throwing darts at my face...