Herb powder/extract feedback

NewAgeMayan

Well-known member
Im interested in anyone's feedback/experiences/knowledge in regards to various herbal extracts, as Im pretty green when it comes to this stuff.

Im mostly interested in any ergogenic benefits; Im not so interested in 'blends' or combination products but standalone powders.

Below is a preliminary list of ones that sounded potentially promising, but I really need any kind of feedback from people as to which ones are 'meh' and which ones are actually noticably effective. Feel free to suggest others, too (Ive left off ones I already have experience with, such as some of the AS supplements).

Acai berry powder
Ashwaghanda root extract
Cocoa bean extract
Garcinia cambogia extract
Ginseng (panax) root extract
Green tea extract
Guayusa leaf
Iporuro leaf
Maca root extract
Mucuna extract
Schisandra berry
Shilajit extract
Siberian ginseng
Tulasi/Holy basil organic leaf
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Im interested in anyone's feedback/experiences/knowledge in regards to various herbal extracts, as Im pretty green when it comes to this stuff.

Im mostly interested in any ergogenic benefits; Im not so interested in 'blends' or combination products but standalone powders.

Below is a preliminary list of ones that sounded potentially promising, but I really need any kind of feedback from people as to which ones are 'meh' and which ones are actually noticably effective. Feel free to suggest others, too (Ive left off ones I already have experience with, such as some of the AS supplements).

Acai berry powder
Ashwaghanda root extract
Cocoa bean extract
Garcinia cambogia extract
Ginseng (panax) root extract
Green tea extract
Guayusa leaf
Iporuro leaf
Maca root extract
Mucuna extract
Schisandra berry
Shilajit extract
Siberian ginseng
Tulasi/Holy basil organic leaf
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Ashwaghanda root extract- you want this standardized for withanolides content
Ginseng (panax) root extract- consider ginsenoside content when purchasing this
Maca root extract- only worthwhile if you want a libido boost
Mucuna extract- look for l-dopa content in this. That is what is most important, and l-dopa content can vary greatly
Shilajit extract- look for something with high (50%) fulvic acid
Siberian ginseng- no real standard

Rest are meh
 
Synapsin said:
Ashwaghanda root extract- you want this standardized for withanolides content
Ginseng (panax) root extract- consider ginsenoside content when purchasing this
Maca root extract- only worthwhile if you want a libido boost
Mucuna extract- look for l-dopa content in this. That is what is most important, and l-dopa content can vary greatly
Shilajit extract- look for something with high (50%) fulvic acid
Siberian ginseng- no real standard

Rest are meh
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Sweet thanks man.

Thoughts on Suma root?
 
Here are the full texts to a few interesting studies:

Ashwagandha:
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Siberian Ginseng:
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Schisandra (link is to a PDF):
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I'll put up links to some more studies tomorrow. I have a few for panax ginseng, as well as quite a few for rhodiola rosea. Personally, I'm a big fan of both ashwagandha and rhodiola. I recently started taking some Siberian ginseng, but it's too early for me to come to any conclusions. I plan on trying some schisandra in the near future as well, but I can't seem to find it standardized for what I'm looking for.

Trichopus Zeylanicus also looks promising, although the only research I've seen on it was with mice, although it apparently has a history of being used in India for its anti-fatigue effects.

from examine.com:
Trichopus at 12.5mg/kg bodyweight was roughly as effective as 125mg/kg bodyweight Ashwagandha, and doses ranging from 25-100mg/kg bodyweight were significantly more effective than Ashwagandha in preventing the decline in motor control and attenuating a rise in fatigue after exhaustive swimming (with subsequent physical testing immediately after).[1] When assessing physical performance in the aforementioned swim task (swimming until fatigue), Trichopus Zeylanicus was able to increase swim time by 40.33% (12.5%) to 103.47% (100mg/kg) whereas Ashwagandha at 125mg/kg was only able to increase time to fatigue by 38.85%.[1]...

One study conducted in mice measuring both inflamation (as a response to exercise) and gastric ulceration (as a response to stress) noted significant attenuation when Trichopus Zeylanicus was fed at 12.5-100mg/kg bodyweight ethanolic extract; reducing 100% ulceration rates in the control group to 82.04% (12.5mg/kg) to 41.95% (100mg/kg) with dose-dependent effects.[1] These effects were slightly more potent on a per weight basis relative 125mg/kg bodyweight Ashwagandha used as an active control, which suppressed levels to 59.26% of control.[1] Trichopus was also able to dose-dependently reduce rectal hypothermia, a biomarker of stress, and all doses were slightly more effective than Ashwagandha.[1]
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I'd really like to see a human study on this stuff, because I don't think anyone here is a mouse.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Are you guys sourcing from specialty stores?
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Yeah, I'm buying them as bulk powders. I'm not sure of the rules for mentioning other sellers, so I won't say where out of caution, but I'm currently waiting on the COA for a few of the extracts from a few sources. I've bought standardized ashwagandha extract (1.5% and 2.5% withanolides, I can't justify the extra cost of going for a 5% extract) from two sources, and they both have the same very distinct smell to them, and they both mix similarly. I can't find a good bulk source of Siberian ginseng or schisandra standardized for what I'm looking for, but I did find some standardized Siberian ginseng capsules that I'm currently trying. If I like the Siberian ginseng, I'll have to find a good bulk supplier to save some money.

If we're talking about herbal extracts, there's always amentoflavone and forskolin to consider, which are both very solid supplements. I really like amento, and I have some forskolin to try (edit: just noticed that you were probably referring to these when you said AS supplements).
 
Ok Synapsin, just taking another look at this post:

Synapsin said:
Ashwaghanda root extract- you want this standardized for withanolides content
Ginseng (panax) root extract- consider ginsenoside content when purchasing this
Maca root extract- only worthwhile if you want a libido boost
Mucuna extract- look for l-dopa content in this. That is what is most important, and l-dopa content can vary greatly
Shilajit extract- look for something with high (50%) fulvic acid
Siberian ginseng- no real standard

Rest are meh
Click to expand...

Now for the obvious questions:

Ashwaghanda...how many mg withanolides /day?
Panax ginseng...ginsenosides mg/day?
Mucuna...mg ldopa /day?
Shilajit...fulvic acid mg/day?
Sib.ginseng...how much mg/day?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Ok Synapsin, just taking another look at this post:



Now for the obvious questions:

Ashwaghanda...how many mg withanolides /day?
Panax ginseng...ginsenosides mg/day?
Mucuna...mg ldopa /day?
Shilajit...fulvic acid mg/day?
Sib.ginseng...how much mg/day?
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I know I'm no Synapsin, but according to the studies I linked and some others I've seen:

ashwagandha: 15mg withanolides twice daily (used in both of the studies I linked yesterday)
Siberian ginseng: 400mg (0.11% of eleutheroside B and 0.12% eleutheroside E) twice daily (used in the study I linked yesterday)

As for panax ginseng, here are some studies:
16mg ginsenosides
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8mg ginsenosides
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note: the above panax ginseng studies were concerned mostly with mental/cognitive performance and fatigue. The interesting thing is that a lot of the studies on panax ginseng studies showed results after a single dose. It is worth noting that a different study, one I didn't link to here, noticed improvements in mental ability and social functioning after 4 weeks, but attenuated after 8 weeks, so you'd probably want to play it safe and take it in <8 week cycles to keep the effects stronger. I personally like cycling panax ginseng with rhodiola; when I'm off of one, I'll take the other. I like them both.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Whats your personal policy on combining them/dosing these things together?
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interestingly, Adapt-232 is a combination of Siberian ginseng, schisandra, and rhodiola rosea. Although I don't think there's been any significant demonstrated synergy between them, the combo has been used quite often with good results.
 
Thanks MUC, bit of reading to do over the weekend.

Just quickly though, I did find an 8% withanolide product (uses Sensoril Ashw. as ingredient), comes out to 8$ for 20 days (if dosed at 30mg /day as you suggested above based on study)...I thought that was a pretty good price?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Thanks MUC, bit of reading to do over the weekend.

Just quickly though, I did find an 8% withanolide product (uses Sensoril Ashw. as ingredient), comes out to 8$ for 20 days (if dosed at 30mg /day as you suggested above based on study)...I thought that was a pretty good price?
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I'm paying $0.12 per day (600mg of 2.5% withanolides 2x daily) for ashwagandha. The previous ashwagandha I bought was only 1.5% withanolides, but I was taking the 600mg 2x daily anyway, it came out to $0.19 per day. Taking 30mg withanolides from that source would come out to $0.32 per day. I'm waiting for a COA on the new source, but it looks, smells, mixes, and tastes like the previous source. I've also called up the company that I'm currently buying from, and the guy on the phone was surprisingly knowledgeable, which is always a good sign.

Edit: Turns out that the ashwagandha extract I just bought is 1.5% withanolides. The 2.5% it said was in reference to the 1.5% withanolides and the 1% alkaloids, which is the same as the previous source I bought from. The new source uses water and ethanol extraction, while the old source is a cold water extract. I went with the newer one because I assumed (incorrectly) that it had a higher withanolide content and was cheaper. I'd need 2000mg of either one to hit the 30mg withanolide mark, which would come out to $0.20 for the water/ethanol extract, and $0.32 for the water extract.

On the other hand, I can get the KSM-66 ashwagandha (5% withanolides) in capsules (12.5mg withanolides per cap, 25mg withanolides per day) for $0.23 per day, which may be the best bet, both for the sake of effectiveness and efficiency (pills are easier than powder).

Of course, you also want the withanolide content measured by HPLC.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Ok Synapsin, just taking another look at this post:



Now for the obvious questions:

Ashwaghanda...how many mg withanolides /day?
Panax ginseng...ginsenosides mg/day?
Mucuna...mg ldopa /day?
Shilajit...fulvic acid mg/day?
Sib.ginseng...how much mg/day?
Click to expand...

Cool info muscleupcrohn! Since he filled you in, for the others:

Mucuna...mg ldopa /day? Really depends, some tolerate 500 mg while others can't go past 200 mg. Play with it before bed.
Shilajit...fulvic acid mg/day? 600-800 total, so 300-400 mg of fulvic acid.
Sib.ginseng...how much mg/day? Can go up to 4 grams, but I'd start at 500 mg or so.
 
Synapsin said:
Cool info muscleupcrohn! Since he filled you in, for the others:

Mucuna...mg ldopa /day? Really depends, some tolerate 500 mg while others can't go past 200 mg. Play with it before bed.
Shilajit...fulvic acid mg/day? 600-800 total, so 300-400 mg of fulvic acid.
Sib.ginseng...how much mg/day? Can go up to 4 grams, but I'd start at 500 mg or so.
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Synapsin, I have a few questions for you, or anyone who happens to know:

-The Siberian ginseng study I referenced earlier used 800mg of Eleutherococcus senticosus extract (0.23% eleutheroside B+E), split into 2 doses daily. All of the eleuthero extracts I've found have much higher eleutheroside B+E content than what was used in the study, meaning that I'd use a much smaller dose to reach the eleutheroside B+E content in the study. I know that these are the main, or primary, bioactives. With that said, the extract I'm looking at now has 2% eleutheroside B+E, which would require a MUCH smaller dose to reach the eleutheroside content. I've noticed that a lot of the big supplement companies seem to have high-% extracts along with non-standardized powders to achieve both the correct dose of actives (greater than or equal to, as I'm sure there's still some small amount in the unstandardized powder) and the total dose of the supplement. Now, I'm not sure if there is any validity or benefit to this method, but it seems to be relatively popular.

The same question also pertains to the Schizandra Chinensis extract, which used a ~3.4% schizandrin extract, while the only extract standardized for schisandrin I've found is 9%, which would, again, reqire a much smaller dose.

I'm leaning towards thinking that it's not necessary to add more powder to the higher-% standardized extracts, as quite a few supplements are dosed according solely to an extract-%, where a smaller dose (higher % extract) is sometimes even vied as favorable, if only for side-effects and not effectiveness, including but not limited to:

-Coleus forskohlii (standardized for forskolin)
-ashwagandha (standardized for withanolides)
-rhodiola rosea (standardized for salidrosides and/or rosavins)
-Selaginella Tamariscina (standardized for amentoflavone)
-Mucuna Pruriens (standardized for L-DOPA)

Now, I'm not quite sure if the same thing applies for the eleuthero and schisandra,

Also, what are the rules for mentioning/talking about outside sellers? I'd really like to post up the COAs of different herbal extracts as I get them in, and perhaps take pictures and provide descriptions for the characteristics of the extracts (color, texture, smell, taste, mixability, etc) that I have the COAs for, to help other people make informed decisions.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Synapsin, I have a few questions for you, or anyone who happens to know:

-The Siberian ginseng study I referenced earlier used 800mg of Eleutherococcus senticosus extract (0.23% eleutheroside B+E), split into 2 doses daily. All of the eleuthero extracts I've found have much higher eleutheroside B+E content than what was used in the study, meaning that I'd use a much smaller dose to reach the eleutheroside B+E content in the study. I know that these are the main, or primary, bioactives. With that said, the extract I'm looking at now has 2% eleutheroside B+E, which would require a MUCH smaller dose to reach the eleutheroside content. I've noticed that a lot of the big supplement companies seem to have high-% extracts along with non-standardized powders to achieve both the correct dose of actives (greater than or equal to, as I'm sure there's still some small amount in the unstandardized powder) and the total dose of the supplement. Now, I'm not sure if there is any validity or benefit to this method, but it seems to be relatively popular.

The same question also pertains to the Schizandra Chinensis extract, which used a ~3.4% schizandrin extract, while the only extract standardized for schisandrin I've found is 9%, which would, again, reqire a much smaller dose.

I'm leaning towards thinking that it's not necessary to add more powder to the higher-% standardized extracts, as quite a few supplements are dosed according solely to an extract-%, where a smaller dose (higher % extract) is sometimes even vied as favorable, if only for side-effects and not effectiveness, including but not limited to:

-Coleus forskohlii (standardized for forskolin)
-ashwagandha (standardized for withanolides)
-rhodiola rosea (standardized for salidrosides and/or rosavins)
-Selaginella Tamariscina (standardized for amentoflavone)
-Mucuna Pruriens (standardized for L-DOPA)

Now, I'm not quite sure if the same thing applies for the eleuthero and schisandra,

Also, what are the rules for mentioning/talking about outside sellers? I'd really like to post up the COAs of different herbal extracts as I get them in, and perhaps take pictures and provide descriptions for the characteristics of the extracts (color, texture, smell, taste, mixability, etc) that I have the COAs for, to help other people make informed decisions.
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For those specific ingredients, go with % if you're looking for the effects in the studies you cited. The only issue from deviation, however, is that if something is 3% compound A, it has a ton of other compounds that might also be active but not the primary focus of said study. I don't know the rules on AM regarding outside vendors, perhaps ask the Admin!
 
Synapsin said:
For those specific ingredients, go with % if you're looking for the effects in the studies you cited. The only issue from deviation, however, is that if something is 3% compound A, it has a ton of other compounds that might also be active but not the primary focus of said study. I don't know the rules on AM regarding outside vendors, perhaps ask the Admin!
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Alright, sounds like I'll just dose according to the primary standardized actives (the only actives mentioned in the studies) for these extracts. Makes things easier for me.

I'll wait a bit and see if I get a response about the rules regarding outside vendors. Tomorrow I'll ask an admin if I don't get an answer tonight. I think people could really benefit from it, but, of course, I'll play by the rules here.
 
I just did some price calculations. To "fill out" the standardized extracts with raw herbal powder (not standardized or an extract, just the powdered herb) to match the total amount of herb used in studies, as a few large companies do, and charge a good bit of money to do, with USDA organic powder no less, would only cost $0.02 per day for Siberian ginseng and $0.01 per day for schisandra. Perhaps it's worth the extra $0.03 per day and few seconds extra of measuring each day after all?
 
Thanks again fellas, this info is gold :)

And yeah if you can post up fotos and other info regarding the powders thatd be great MUC
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Thanks again fellas, this info is gold :)

And yeah if you can post up fotos and other info regarding the powders thatd be great MUC
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Thanks.

I just measured out a serving (600mg) of both of the ashwagandha powders I currently have. Both are 1.5% withanolides and 1% alkaloids. One is from a "normal" company that specializes in selling herbal stuff (it comes in a nice little glass bottle), and the other comes from a bulk supplier who specializes in amino acids and herbs. Both powders look exactly the same when placed next to each other, they smell the same, and they mix the same in 4oz of water, right down to little clumps that formed. Consistency is a good sign; if they're the same thing, they should look and "behave" the same.

I also have two different rhodiola rosea extract powders (3% salidroside) from different bulk suppliers that I plan on comparing to each other today.

I'm requesting a COA from one of the suppliers (the supplier that has both the ashwagandha and rhodiola).

I'm ordering some ashwagandha (5% withanolides), Siberian ginseng (2% eleutheroside B+E), schizandra (9% schisandrins), and because it's cheap enough, some organic Siberian ginseng root powder (not extract) and some organic schisandra berry powder (not extract) to "fill out" the doses of the high % extracts. I'm requesting a COA for the extracts I'm ordering. Once I have the product and the COAs, I'd like to share my "findings" with people who may be looking for the same products.
 
Synapsin, can you see there being any conflict/probs dosing ashwagandha with ABE?

And whilst on the topic of ABE, Im finding if I dose (fasted) ABE with ALCAR I get slightly nauseous (dose ALCAR later and Im fine), can you think of any reason why this might be so?

Cheers
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Synapsin, can you see there being any conflict/probs dosing ashwagandha with ABE?

And whilst on the topic of ABE, Im finding if I dose (fasted) ABE with ALCAR I get slightly nauseous (dose ALCAR later and Im fine), can you think of any reason why this might be so?

Cheers
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Should be fine stacking Ash with ABE. As for your second concern, are you taking the ALCAR fasted later as well? It may be from taking all of that at once fasted. It happens to me on occasion as well.
 
Synapsin said:
Should be fine stacking Ash with ABE. As for your second concern, are you taking the ALCAR fasted later as well? It may be from taking all of that at once fasted. It happens to me on occasion as well.
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ALCAR later is postwo with shake/food...all good, Ill just put it down to personal idiosyncrasy
 
Synapsin said:
Mucuna...mg ldopa /day? Really depends, some tolerate 500 mg while others can't go past 200 mg. Play with it before bed.
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Hey man, few more questions:

1) specifically what tolerance issues do some people have (GI?)

2) is ok to dose with ALCAR?

3) If dosing every night, how soon do benefits typically manifest?
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Hey man, few more questions:

1) specifically what tolerance issues do some people have (GI?)

2) is ok to dose with ALCAR?

3) If dosing every night, how soon do benefits typically manifest?
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1) mood dysfunction, strange dreams, GI, etc

2) its fine

3) really depends, maybe 1-2 weeks although some people feel it after their first few nights of use
 
okay guys, with the ashwagandha, is root or root/leaf extract preferrable in terms of ergogenic benefits? i had a product i was looking at that used sensoril extract (root and leaf), but upon reading user feedback some guys say that sensoril is better in terms of mental and physical calming...which im not interested in (again, im more after energy benefits and such). some users claim root extract is the way to go for energy (and they specify NOW's product).

thorts?
 
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