Help With Testosterone Support

[bill86]

I've tried posting this 3 times now, so I'll keep it short and simple.

I'm 31, never used pro hormones or AAS, and I've had every symptom of low-t that I can imagine (libido, body fat, decreased strength, moodiness, lethargy, always tired, etc.). When I turned 30, I began noticing significant weight gain despite my diet and workout being the same. My stress isn't much different than before, either.

I finally got it checked, and they told me that it was normal. When I asked, I was told that my test was about 330 (which doesn't seem normal for a 31 year old, despite being in the "normal range"). I don't remember by estrogen, but remember it being lower than I expected (I figured it would be much higher because of my gyno, which I've had since I was about 16).

It's been years since I've used any supplements other than Whey and standard pre workouts like NO Xplode.

Back when I was active on the forums, DAA was the end all, be all of testosterone support. Is that still the case? Is there a product or stack that would help me out without having to resort to TRT to accomplish my goals? I'm not interested in starting that at my age, though, I suppose I'll have to in a few years if my test continues to decrease.

Any help would be appreciated. It's just extremely frustrating how hard it is to lose body fat, even after adjusting my diet and increasing cardio.

 

[bill86]

Also - they did full panel bloodwork. This is the second time that I've had that done within the past several years. Aside from my Vitamin D (which has been rectified via prescription), they said that everything looked fine both times.

 

[Ase_james]

I've tried posting this 3 times now, so I'll keep it short and simple.

I'm 31, never used pro hormones or AAS, and I've had every symptom of low-t that I can imagine (libido, body fat, decreased strength, moodiness, lethargy, always tired, etc.). When I turned 30, I began noticing significant weight gain despite my diet and workout being the same. My stress isn't much different than before, either.

I finally got it checked, and they told me that it was normal. When I asked, I was told that my test was about 330 (which doesn't seem normal for a 31 year old, despite being in the "normal range"). I don't remember by estrogen, but remember it being lower than I expected (I figured it would be much higher because of my gyno, which I've had since I was about 16).

It's been years since I've used any supplements other than Whey and standard pre workouts like NO Xplode.

Back when I was active on the forums, DAA was the end all, be all of testosterone support. Is that still the case? Is there a product or stack that would help me out without having to resort to TRT to accomplish my goals? I'm not interested in starting that at my age, though, I suppose I'll have to in a few years if my test continues to decrease.

Any help would be appreciated. It's just extremely frustrating how hard it is to lose body fat, even after adjusting my diet and increasing cardio.

With test that low, i dont think youre going to get it up to what it should be with herbs or vitamins...

Are you taking a lot of good fats, zinc and all that?

I was just in this spot and tried all the home remedies.
They may help a little for a short time, but i found myself spending a ton of money on test boosters that didnt help.

The best you can do, in my experience, is work out good diet and rest. Sounds like you are doing that now...

I have heard of guys using hcg alone, but ill wait to hear what they say.

 

[bill86]

Thank you for your help. I didn't realize that 300's was THAT low (I guess I should have assumed, but my buddy got his checked and was around 350 - he's in phenomenal shape and everyone assumes he's on steroids - his doctor said that some people our age just have lower numbers but that it's not something to be overly concerned about).

Also, yes, I'm especially watching my diet more recently as I peaked at about 234 on the scale (I was around 215 just a couple of years ago, and about 220 last year, and have always been VERY consistent with diet and exercise) a couple of weeks ago.

What did you end up having to do? TRT? One problem that I have (probably a result of my mild depression) is that I can sleep at any point during the day, but then cannot fall asleep at night, or sleep poorly. I know that this is a problem for test. Maybe I will look into some ZMA. That's pretty affordable stuff.


Thanks again

 

[bill86]

Note: I just called my doctor, my numbers were off.

Test: 434.2 ("normal range of 300-1,000")
Estrogen: 19.1 ("normal range 7.6-42.6")

 

[Ase_james]

Thank you for your help. I didn't realize that 300's was THAT low (I guess I should have assumed, but my buddy got his checked and was around 350 - he's in phenomenal shape and everyone assumes he's on steroids - his doctor said that some people our age just have lower numbers but that it's not something to be overly concerned about).

Also, yes, I'm especially watching my diet more recently as I peaked at about 234 on the scale (I was around 215 just a couple of years ago, and about 220 last year, and have always been VERY consistent with diet and exercise) a couple of weeks ago.

What did you end up having to do? TRT? One problem that I have (probably a result of my mild depression) is that I can sleep at any point during the day, but then cannot fall asleep at night, or sleep poorly. I know that this is a problem for test. Maybe I will look into some ZMA. That's pretty affordable stuff.


Thanks again

Yep, just started a few weeks ago. Im 39 and my level was 430's.
I felt great in my early 30s probably tje best ever. But the last few years, same story. Low drive tired and moody.

Tried all the test boosters, seems like they helped with some platoe but not overall or well being.

Dont get me wrong, maybe itll help... just my experience.

 

[bill86]

Hmm, maybe my level of 434/19.1 weren't that bad after all... However, you've got 8 years on me. Am I correct in my understanding that one cannot get off of TRT once they start?

I figured I'd try and buy myself some time and get on it at 35ish if it continues to drop. I've just read a lot of things indicating that TRT may pose some long-term risks. Any idea as to the validity of such claims? Also, I have high blood pressure, and was worried that it may affect my BP as other hormones (ph, aas) would.

 

[Ase_james]

Hmm, maybe my level of 434/19.1 weren't that bad after all... However, you've got 8 years on me. Am I correct in my understanding that one cannot get off of TRT once they start?

I figured I'd try and buy myself some time and get on it at 35ish if it continues to drop. I've just read a lot of things indicating that TRT may pose some long-term risks. Any idea as to the validity of such claims? Also, I have high blood pressure, and was worried that it may affect my BP as other hormones (ph, aas) would.

You can come off, just like a cycle. Some places jave you go year round and some wamt you to pct once a year.
But over time, yes im sure it effects your body's ability to go back to normal.

Even though it didnt work for me, try it all man, its your body. It isnt goimg to hurt going natty as long as possible, especially if youre still making gains.

Cholesterol and blood pressure will always change when your test levels are up testosterone works off cholesterol, so tjat might be a major factor for you. I plan on donating regularly, but i jave really good number there so its not a risk factor for me.

I just figured out i was spending almost the same money on sups. I just hit a wall about a year ago, that's when i moved on.

Of course, now i am "on" so I'm pretty sure ill just enjoy the ride.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Here is a chart I use to discuss Testosterone levels.

 

[kenpoengineer]

So, at 31 you are low but you have to ask yourself:
1) Do I feel good and am happy with my appearance?
2) Do I want to inject every 3.5 days for the rest of my life?

Try correcting that Vitamin D level and maybe get your DHEA-S and Free Testosterone levels checked. Also check iodine and a full thyroid panel. Get copies of your bloodwork results so you can see the actual numbers rather than hearing the old “you’re in range” thing.

 

[hairygrandpa]

A diet deficient in fats could also be the cause. Cholesterol is essential to normal hormone levels.

 

[sammpedd88]

You can come off, just like a cycle. Some places jave you go year round and some wamt you to pct once a year.
But over time, yes im sure it effects your body's ability to go back to normal.

Even though it didnt work for me, try it all man, its your body. It isnt goimg to hurt going natty as long as possible, especially if youre still making gains.

Cholesterol and blood pressure will always change when your test levels are up testosterone works off cholesterol, so tjat might be a major factor for you. I plan on donating regularly, but i jave really good number there so its not a risk factor for me.

I just figured out i was spending almost the same money on sups. I just hit a wall about a year ago, that's when i moved on.

Of course, now i am "on" so I'm pretty sure ill just enjoy the ride.

Just curious of where you’re getting your information regarding cycling TRT and going on a PCT once a year?

 

[Ase_james]

Just curious of where you’re getting your information regarding cycling TRT and going on a PCT once a year?

Trt clinics. They all have there own regimen, most do it year round, but some want you off every year to test your system and help keep your body from adapting.

There are a lot of theories to how it works and i wont pretended to know the best. But in relation to op post and question, i think its good to know, you can get off.

 

[sammpedd88]

Trt clinics. They all have there own regimen, most do it year round, but some want you off every year to test your system and help keep your body from adapting.

There are a lot of theories to how it works and i wont pretended to know the best. But in relation to op post and question, i think its good to know, you can get off.

Most research points to the fact that you can’t get off TRT. Being on TRT shuts down your natural production of testosterone. The idea of a PCT is to help rev up your natural production like when you’re on a cycle. TRT is for life....period. Of course I don’t know everything either. I’ve been on TRT for almost 5 years. Knowing what I do know, I’d never cycle it.

 

[bill86]

Thank you all for the help.

I did have my thyroid checked, as I thought that could be contributing to my problem (checked twice, actually), but only got the “it’s normal” response.

At 31, I’m not “happy” with my appearance, but it could be worse (the gyno and pseudo-gyno combo makes me not want to take off my shirt). I just look like a normal guy that hits the gym once in a while; certainly not someone that puts in the time and effort that I do. That’s what’s reslly frustrating - but would I do injections twice a week for the rest of my life to look more like my workout buddies? Probably not.

Maybe I’ll give the natural booster route a try for 8ish weeks and see if I notice a difference.

I’m so used to shaky libido and being tired all the time that I’m used to it by now. The irritability gets annoying, and I’m sure even more so for the people around me.

Any suggestions on boosters? Prime-T looked nice with the 3g of DAA + the more traditional herbs. I also heard “The Big Guy” mentioned on podcast, and it looks very interesting, but the prop blend is annoying


Thanks again!

 

[hairygrandpa]

Thank you all for the help.

I did have my thyroid checked, as I thought that could be contributing to my problem (checked twice, actually), but only got the “it’s normal” response.

At 31, I’m not “happy” with my appearance, but it could be worse (the gyno and pseudo-gyno combo makes me not want to take off my shirt). I just look like a normal guy that hits the gym once in a while; certainly not someone that puts in the time and effort that I do. That’s what’s reslly frustrating - but would I do injections twice a week for the rest of my life to look more like my workout buddies? Probably not.

Maybe I’ll give the natural booster route a try for 8ish weeks and see if I notice a difference.

I’m so used to shaky libido and being tired all the time that I’m used to it by now. The irritability gets annoying, and I’m sure even more so for the people around me.

Any suggestions on boosters? Prime-T looked nice with the 3g of DAA + the more traditional herbs. I also heard “The Big Guy” mentioned on podcast, and it looks very interesting, but the prop blend is annoying


Thanks again!

For your gyno and breast fat deposits, Go on a cut, then I would use some exemestane to lower e2 (2 consecutive days of 25mg is all you need), after that raloxifene at 60/30/30/30/30. With some exemestane afterwards to curb e2 rebound (like 3x 12.5mg e3d). it also may have a positive impact on your test levels. If less/no gyno would rock your world, it's definitely worth a try.
You can get this stuff from any research chem vendor.
It's not like taking roids -and it could be your solution. I did it and got rid of the gyno.

 

[Ase_james]

Most research points to the fact that you can’t get off TRT. Being on TRT shuts down your natural production of testosterone. The idea of a PCT is to help rev up your natural production like when you’re on a cycle. TRT is for life....period. Of course I don’t know everything either. I’ve been on TRT for almost 5 years. Knowing what I do know, I’d never cycle it.

Whats different about using trt vs a cycle of test? Less test, thats about it.
You can cycle test on and off all you want. There is literally no difference. Its the time frame that matters.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Whats different about using trt vs a cycle of test? Less test, thats about it.
You can cycle test on and off all you want. There is literally no difference. Its the time frame that matters.

TRT is the attempt to bring lacking natural test levels up to a physiological normal test level.
A cycle of test is way more than your own body could make.

Edit: Read your assertion again -not really understanding it, LOL.

 

[bill86]

For your gyno and breast fat deposits, Go on a cut, then I would use some exemestane to lower e2 (2 consecutive days of 25mg is all you need), after that raloxifene at 60/30/30/30/30. With some exemestane afterwards to curb e2 rebound (like 3x 12.5mg e3d). it also may have a positive impact on your test levels. If less/no gyno would rock your world, it's definitely worth a try.
You can get this stuff from any research chem vendor.
It's not like taking roids -and it could be your solution. I did it and got rid of the gyno.

Wow! I’ll definitely give this a shot. As of a few years ago, when I was still active on the internet sites, I was told nothing could be done short or surgery.

I’m on a cut now, and hope to lose some of the chest fat (I store A LOT in my chest) first. I liked the way I looked after my last cut, but it made my gyno a lot more noticeable. As weird as it sounds, it looks more “normal” at higher body fat levels bc it just looks.... fat.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: Do I understand correctly that I only take the Aromasin for 2 days total before the Raloxifene, then for 3 days total every 3rd day after the “cycle”?

Editx2: is that Raloxifene per week? 60/30/30/30/30 for 5 weeks total? If so, are those mg’s to be taken every day? It looks like people are taking it for several months at a time.

 

[sammpedd88]

Whats different about using trt vs a cycle of test? Less test, thats about it.
You can cycle test on and off all you want. There is literally no difference. Its the time frame that matters.

You’re on TRT because your body isn’t producing enough test on its own. When you use test to get your levels up to where they should be, you have to continue with that. Your body isn’t going to make more test on its own so you can stop TRT. If you stop taking test while on TRT, your test levels will drop below where they need to be. Then you’re creating a yo-yo effect with your blood levels. People don’t choose to be on TRT like some chooses to run a cycle of gear, they have to be on it to have normal hormone levels. Time frames and cycles don’t work with TRT.

 

[hairygrandpa]

Wow! I’ll definitely give this a shot. As of a few years ago, when I was still active on the internet sites, I was told nothing could be done short or surgery.

I’m on a cut now, and hope to lose some of the chest fat (I store A LOT in my chest) first. I liked the way I looked after my last cut, but it made my gyno a lot more noticeable. As weird as it sounds, it looks more “normal” at higher body fat levels bc it just looks.... fat.

Thanks for the help!

Edit: Do I understand correctly that I only take the Aromasin for 2 days total before the Raloxifene, then for 3 days total every 3rd day after the “cycle”?

Editx2: is that Raloxifene per week? 60/30/30/30/30 for 5 weeks total? If so, are those mg’s to be taken every day? It looks like people are taking it for several months at a time.

Edit: Do I understand correctly that I only take the Aromasin for 2 days total before the Raloxifene, then for 3 days total every 3rd day after the “cycle”?

Exactly, exemestane maybe 4 times every 3 days after the cycle.

Editx2: is that Raloxifene per week? 60/30/30/30/30 for 5 weeks total? If so, are those mg’s to be taken every day? It looks like people are taking it for several months at a time.

Yes, at one dose every day for 5 weeks, starting at 60mg/day, then check results. If you see results -but after 5 weeks you still have lumps/fat left, you could either bump up the dose (up to 180mg/d) -or keep going at 30mg for extended time. After all I read about it, if you did not respond after about a month, you can abort it.
People use letro to kill e2 beforehand, IMHO its too harsh and not needed. 2x25mg exem should do the trick if you have e2 in normal range.

 

[bill86]

Exactly, exemestane maybe 4 times every 3 days after the cycle.


Yes, at one dose every day for 5 weeks, starting at 60mg/day, then check results. If you see results -but after 5 weeks you still have lumps/fat left, you could either bump up the dose (up to 180mg/d) -or keep going at 30mg for extended time. After all I read about it, if you did not respond after about a month, you can abort it.
People use letro to kill e2 beforehand, IMHO its too harsh and not needed. 2x25mg exem should do the trick if you have e2 in normal range.

Wow, this has been very helpful. I’ve been reading other posts since I read yours, and it seems dosing is all over the place. However, I did read elsewhere that one should be saturated with 60mg per day. Others said to go no less than 180xday.

One last question, just to make sure that I’m crystal clear, how does this look to you:

Day 1: Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Day 2: Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Week 1/days 3-7: Ralox (60mg - 1 dose)
Weeks 2-5: Ralox (30mg - 1 dose)
“Pct” of Aromasin - 37.5 mg per day, split into 3 12.5mg doses, for 4 days, taken every third day. So Days 1, 4, 7, 10: Aromasin (12.5mg/12.5mg/12.5mg)


Thanks again for all of your help. I’ve literally dreamt of being able to afford gyno surgery, or being able to get rid of it. I’ve even watched some of the surgeries online to see what it’s like (and been jealous that I couldn’t be the guy getting it). Nothing worse than being at the gym, getting a nice pump and filling out my shirt, only to look in the mirror and think, “wow, my fat chest looks awful”... unable to focus on anything else.

I might speak with my doctor, or make an appointment with an endo, to see if I can’t get some prescribed.

 

[Ase_james]

You’re on TRT because your body isn’t producing enough test on its own. When you use test to get your levels up to where they should be, you have to continue with that. Your body isn’t going to make more test on its own so you can stop TRT. If you stop taking test while on TRT, your test levels will drop below where they need to be. Then you’re creating a yo-yo effect with your blood levels. People don’t choose to be on TRT like some chooses to run a cycle of gear, they have to be on it to have normal hormone levels. Time frames and cycles don’t work with TRT.

Im not saying thats wrong. What i Am saying is people who choose trt can certainly come off if they choose. Its not a sentence, you just go back to your low levels of testosterone...

To say your body wont produce test after trt, is the same as saying it wont after a cycle. Im also not saying its the thing to do, just trying to answer a mans question directly...

 

[hairygrandpa]

Wow, this has been very helpful. I’ve been reading other posts since I read yours, and it seems dosing is all over the place. However, I did read elsewhere that one should be saturated with 60mg per day. Others said to go no less than 180xday.

One last question, just to make sure that I’m crystal clear, how does this look to you:

Day 1: Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Day 2: Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Week 1/days 3-7: Ralox (60mg - 1 dose)
Weeks 2-5: Ralox (30mg - 1 dose)
“Pct” of Aromasin - 37.5 mg per day, split into 3 12.5mg doses, for 4 days, taken every third day. So Days 1, 4, 7, 10: Aromasin (12.5mg/12.5mg/12.5mg)


Thanks again for all of your help. I’ve literally dreamt of being able to afford gyno surgery, or being able to get rid of it. I’ve even watched some of the surgeries online to see what it’s like (and been jealous that I couldn’t be the guy getting it). Nothing worse than being at the gym, getting a nice pump and filling out my shirt, only to look in the mirror and think, “wow, my fat chest looks awful”... unable to focus on anything else.

I might speak with my doctor, or make an appointment with an endo, to see if I can’t get some prescribed.

The ralox dose is anywhere from 60-180mg/day. It worked for me with even less.
My Ralox came as 50mg/ml in a 30ml flask. Had only one flask. So I did 50/25/25. Gyno was gone after week 3, pic is of the flask with another short cycle if needed.

Here exactly the layout:

Day one before cycle: Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Day two before cycle:Aromasin (25mg - 1 dose)
Week 1: Ralox (60mg/day - in one take)
Weeks 2-5: Ralox (30mg/day - in one take)
After the last dose of Ralox ( you decide length of cycle) Aromasin: 12.5mg in one take every 3 days (or 2 times per week) for 2 weeks.

I had absolutely no side effects.
I highly doubt an endo will be helpful.

 

[kenpoengineer]

Im not saying thats wrong. What i Am saying is people who choose trt can certainly come off if they choose. Its not a sentence, you just go back to your low levels of testosterone...

To say your body wont produce test after trt, is the same as saying it wont after a cycle. Im also not saying its the thing to do, just trying to answer a mans question directly...

Every time you “cycle” test you damage your HPTA system (yes, age does play a part, but young men have trouble as well). When you PCT your HPTA doesn’t necessarily return to producing natural test at the same levels before the cycle. Essentially you can spiral lower and lower with every cycle/PCT. Every cycle is a risk.

 

[masti]

Sub

 

[sammpedd88]

Im not saying thats wrong. What i Am saying is people who choose trt can certainly come off if they choose. Its not a sentence, you just go back to your low levels of testosterone...

To say your body wont produce test after trt, is the same as saying it wont after a cycle. Im also not saying its the thing to do, just trying to answer a mans question directly...

People don’t choose TRT. They get on TRT because they have to be to have normal levels of test. Having test levels below normal effects many other hormones and also leads to other serious health issues such as heart disease. Its almost the equivalent of a diabetic needing insulin.

 

[masti]

Sounds familiar to me, I was having the same problems at around 30. even gyno when I was 18 and always having a cold.
As other's already mentioned, how's your fat intake?
I was always eating restricted as I am a former fat boy, but when the doc diagnosed low test I raised up my fat intake and lowered my weekly volume to max 4 workouts/week to avoid too much cortisol output.
Feeling much better now (turning 37 soon) but always have to watch my diet/nutrition.

 

[bill86]

You know, I probably should look into my fat intake a little closer. I mostly rely on foods such as eggs, lean beef, olive oil, and things such as Smart Balance (as I love butter). However, I've never really counted my intake, and instead focused mostly on getting enough protein to try and maintain as much muscle mass as possible while dieting and cutting carbs.

I'll definitely start paying closer attention. Maybe throw some almonds and pistachios back into my diet as I always enjoyed those, but considered them too calorie dense.

 

[JVee63]

You know, I probably should look into my fat intake a little closer. I mostly rely on foods such as eggs, lean beef, olive oil, and things such as Smart Balance (as I love butter). However, I've never really counted my intake, and instead focused mostly on getting enough protein to try and maintain as much muscle mass as possible while dieting and cutting carbs.

I'll definitely start paying closer attention. Maybe throw some almonds and pistachios back into my diet as I always enjoyed those, but considered them too calorie dense.

Smart Balance isn't butter.You need to stop eating that stuff and get real butter.

 

[bill86]

Smart Balance isn't butter.You need to stop eating that stuff and get real butter.

Really? I thought I was doing my body a favor with the smart balance.

 

[JVee63]

Really? I thought I was doing my body a favor with the smart balance.

No sir, I think it is basically margarine with some additives.
Kerrygold pure Irish butter is usually easy to find at most stores and may well even be cheaper than what you have been buying.

 

[masti]

No sir, I think it is basically margarine with some additives.
Kerrygold pure Irish butter is usually easy to find at most stores and may well even be cheaper than what you have been buying.

that's the only one I am eating. plus whole milk from gras fed cows.