HCG Therapy-couple of concerns

[swirvin1]

Hi All –

Long story short: I am 30 years old, and have been dealing with secondary hypogonadism for years. For years, bloodwork displayed my T results at 300 ngl/dl or lower. I have been taking Clomid along with Arimidex to boost the T and control Estradiol.
Recent labs results, after a year of this treatment, came in at 440 ng/dl. This is definitely an improvement, but still in the low-normal range for someone my age and in good health. I have been seeing a very well-renowned doctor that specializes solely on this issue. The doctor would like to start me with EOD injections of HCG at 2000 IU’s and she will also include Nolvadex to keep keep E2 in check. She seems to think that since my body responded to Clomid treatment, that my body should respond substantially greater to HCG shots. I am at a point of desperation, so I am just listening to her and will begin.

A couple questions though –

1. I have heard of people dosing at 250-300 IU’s for this exact purpose, but never as high as 2000 IU’s EOD. I am worried that a dose that high and frequent would damage the HPTA axis. Does anyone have any experience or thoughts on this?

2. Also, I am going into this treatment with hopes that after a year or so, the HCG will re-start or jump-start my body’s own natural production. Is this even possible? Or is HCG something I will likely have to take for life or my levels will drop back down to the low-normal range?

This has been an absolute nightmare. Any knowledge would be helpful. Thanks

 

[ValiantThor08]

Question, how much saturated fats do you consume daily approximately. Also, 2000iu of HCG seems high, and it seems like the doc wants to keep you on some chemical permanently for $$$$, rather than solve a bodily problem.

 

[swirvin1]

I try to eat a good amount of good fats everyday. I don't have an exact measurement of that though.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Good chance you need more dietary cholesterol and saturated fat. If you dont get constant sunlight daily, good chance you need some D3. Except, I wouldn't get D3 through a synthetic vitamin, but through cod liver oil. Fat, cholesterol, d3 are very important for your body to have the capability to produce more testosterone.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Sometimes, lifestyle and diet changes can make a significant impact on your hormones. You are too young to have that level of testosterone, and young enough for your body to be able to heal whatever pathway necessary for you to get your test back up.

 

[ValiantThor08]

Doctors want to make money. Remember that.

 

[swirvin1]

ValiantThor08 thank you for the reply. To your point about doctors just wanting to earn money-I agree with you 100%. I have been hoping that a functional medicine/holistic approach doctor could help me with this issue but there aren't many reputable options in my area. This doctor at the Urology office is my 5th stop among other Urologists and Endocrinologists. To say the least, I am not very optimistic that she will be able to help me, or even truly wants to help me. But I do appreciate your optimism regarding my young age and the potential for my body to heal. My biggest fear is that this issue will haunt me until my last days. There has to be a way to get my body producing its own substantial supply of T without remaining on RX's indefinitely.

Each day, I take high quality Fish Oil, Probiotics, L-Lysine, Multivitamin, DHEA, and Vitamin D. I also try my best to get those fats in and I keep processed foods and simple carbs to a minimum. Also, my sleep is fine. I usually get about 7-8 hours per night, and I lift and do cardio about 5 days per week.

The next time I speak with the doctor I am definitely going to ask for her perspective why the high dose is necessary.

 

[ValiantThor08]

I'm 28. Had used steroids on and off foolishly at 19-21, I have not tested my testosterone ever really, but I know that at this point in my life, I'm positive I have decent amount of testosterone circulating even though I added hormones during a developmental stage of life. If my body can recover, I believe yours can; worry doesn't help. Is there a slim chance you cannot recover, sure, but let that be last case scenario.

 

[swirvin1]

So just an update - the doctor finally called in the prescription. She called in Pregnyl (HCG) at 2500-3000 IU EOD, Clomid 25mg ED, Arimidex @ 1mg/day (I take .5mg per week) and Cabergoline @ 1mg EOD. She seems pretty thorough about giving me all the Rx help she can. I am not sure how long I will be on this regimen but will begin tonight. I am praying this restarts my system and my body can fix itself in time.

 

[DaeshDontSurf]

this sound crazy to me - caber? guess she saw carzy high prolactin? that amount of anastrozole (and did you mess up with the 1mg A DAY??? that will crush you) - 0.5mg/week is what i use to control e2 from 180mg of test cyp - guess she saw crazy high e2 from clomid? hcg dose seems nuts - my trt doc has me do 10 units (from a 100 unit/1ml insulin syringe) every day. what are your numbers man?

 

[swirvin1]

DaeshDontSurf I am on the Cabergoline because about two years ago a MRI revealed that I had a prolactinoma. Back then, yes, my Prolactin numbers were very high. Since being on the medication for over 2 years, my Prolactin level is now normal. I assume she is keeping me on the Cabergoline for safe measure in that regard. I'm sure it's not a critical component anymore.

As far as Anastrozole is concerned, two years ago she Rx'd that, the Caber, and the Clomid. She Rx'd the AI @ 1mg/day but I quickly noticed my E2 was destroyed so I toyed with it for a long time to find a sweet spot. After long trial and error it seems that .5mg/week or even .25mg/week is working for me. However, even with currently being on those 3 medications, I still can't remember the last time I had morning wood. I am assuming that she put me on that level of AI because initially the Clomid alone increased my E2 to the high 50's. I am not sure if she intended for me to start high and gradually reduce dosage-she never specified.

And I agree the dosage seems insane, but I am hoping it's just during the front end of the treatment. I'll have to keep a close watch on that. I am concerned such a major dose will desensitize my body and screw me over even more.

 

[The Matrix]

Often time hormone imbalance is a down stream of deeper pathology in an environmental emotional lifestyle pathogens or structure imbalance

 

[swirvin1]

Well considering that I lift weights and do cardio every day for about 1.5 hrs, stick to high protein, high good fat, and very low carb diet, get about 8 hours of sound sleep every night, drink only once per week, and have 10% body fat...I doubt it's lifestyle. I'm pretty structured and good about those type of things. I am however, perplexed by the fact that I am overall healthy at 30 years old and can't get a T read above 400 ng/dl even while taking Clomid. I am PRAYING that the HCG will be enough to shock my system back into normal gear.

 

[The Matrix]

Over training and under eating can be a very easy explaination

 

[sammpedd88]

I agree with Matrix. You need rest days man. You grow and repair muscle during rest days not while in the gym. Cut it back to 5 days and add a few good carbs in your diet for a while and see if that doesn’t help.

 

[The Matrix]

Refeeds can do miracles

 

[sammpedd88]

This is twice I’ve agreed with you Matrix!

 

[The Matrix]

This is twice I’ve agreed with you Matrix!

Since my wife is a nurse practitioner and I am dealing with more medical professionals and universities, you have to cut the fluff and get to the straight point. Need to rule out the horses before dealing with the zebra’s. Too many functional medicine doctors are seeing zebra’s when really it’s a horse. Since understanding better the pathophysiology, it’s change my perspective on things and appreciate of what is being taught in medical profession and what is not actually being practiced..

 

[sammpedd88]

Since my wife is a nurse practitioner and I am dealing with more medical doctors and clinics you have to cut the fluff and get to the straight point. Need to rule out the horses before dealing with the zebra’s. Too many functional medicine doctors are seeing zebra’s when really it’s a horse. I have cases presented them to medical doctors who reviewed the findings.
When appropriate the doctors themselves reported the case to the AMA. I am seeing increase cases of confirmed uterine cancer from excess of pellets in female. A number of women’s testosterone in the 200-250 range 4 weeks after pellets implanted. Since understanding better the pathophysiology, it’s change my perspective on things.

A woman with 200-250 range of test is INSANE!! I agree that traditional doctors are so awful.

 

[The Matrix]

A woman with 200-250 range of test is INSANE!! I agree that traditional doctors are so awful.

The problem is doctors may be “lazy” as they are being rushed to meet quota. Many are trying to make money by providing other “services” which may require going to a weekend seminar. Any
Doctor can prescribe hormones even without proper training is a scary thought. Medical professionals can legally call them self a “specialist” in any given field due to their credentials. My wife decided not to become a “functional medicine” practioner. It’s not worth the $50-75,000 and stress of more schooling. Actually in medical community the more appropriate term is “integrative” medicine. By using proper terminology changes how people will respect you. If you meet my wife, she has the traditional training, but with alternative mind set if appropriate. It better be reinforced by type of evidence based ideology or research. I had to tighten up on things myself. Even the research, a lot of it is flawed and subject to bias.

 

[sammpedd88]

The problem is doctors may be “lazy” as they are being rushed to meet quota. Many are trying to make money by providing other “services” which may require going to a weekend seminar. Any
Doctor can prescribe hormones even without proper training is a scary thought. Medical professionals can legally call them self a “specialist” in any given field due to their credentials. My wife decided not to become a “functional medicine” practioner. It’s not worth the $50-75,000 and stress of more schooling. Actually in medical community the more appropriate term is “integrative” medicine. By using proper terminology changes how people will respect you. If you meet my wife, she has the traditional training, but with alternative mind set if appropriate. It better be reinforced by type of evidence based ideology or research. I had to tighten up on things myself. Even the research, a lot of it is flawed and subject to bias.

I’m all for the integrative medicine practitioners. I currently see one now for my TRT. Been a patient there for almost 5 years. I’m glad you’re wife is into it. If all dr’s would go that route, we all would be much healthier.

 

[BBiceps]

The problem is doctors may be “lazy” as they are being rushed to meet quota. Many are trying to make money by providing other “services” which may require going to a weekend seminar. Any
Doctor can prescribe hormones even without proper training is a scary thought. Medical professionals can legally call them self a “specialist” in any given field due to their credentials. My wife decided not to become a “functional medicine” practioner. It’s not worth the $50-75,000 and stress of more schooling. Actually in medical community the more appropriate term is “integrative” medicine. By using proper terminology changes how people will respect you. If you meet my wife, she has the traditional training, but with alternative mind set if appropriate. It better be reinforced by type of evidence based ideology or research. I had to tighten up on things myself. Even the research, a lot of it is flawed and subject to bias.

What’s your thought about HCG therapy, I thought HCG could potentially shut you down as well?

I messed up on a cycle and my test levels came back low, my Dr wanted put me on HCG, I said no and got some Clomid on my own, Clomid always been good to me in the past.

 

[The Matrix]

What’s your thought about HCG therapy, I thought HCG could potentially shut you down as well?

I messed up on a cycle and my test levels came back low, my Dr wanted put me on HCG, I said no and got some Clomid on my own, Clomid always been good to me in the past.

Ain’t broke do not fix it