living2die
Member
Also, with your Total T over 500 prior to your 250IU ED HCG Monotherapy treatment, I'm not sure if you should even be on HRT for that matter...Total T in neighborhood of 500 is completely acceptable.
hcg and estradiol
- Thread starter maguire
- Start date
LeanGuy
Active member
Not true for everyone. My natural T was about 500 and I still did not feel good, probably because E2 was only 10. E2 has a huge impact on libido/erections. I am on HCG 350iu E3D and feel much better... just a little arimidex needed to keep E2 in check. TT is about 750 now. HCG ED is not a good schedule... it has a half-life of 72-96 hours, so E3D or even E4D is better IMO.
living2die
Member
P-CITY,
I believe Jansz has reproduced a chart based of a washington university study , and according to Jansz chart HCG at 308IU EOD will put testicles at 100% production capacity. Anything less or more will put the system out of wack. 500IU PW is way too low IMO.
I believe Jansz has reproduced a chart based of a washington university study , and according to Jansz chart HCG at 308IU EOD will put testicles at 100% production capacity. Anything less or more will put the system out of wack. 500IU PW is way too low IMO.
Dr. John
Member
With all due respect to our good friend Jan, you really cannot make such generalizations. Everyone is different; many will do just great on HCG 250iu SC 2/w.
Dr. John
Member
At Total T even 500, you really do not know your TRUE T production until you have invested in 24 hour urines. That may have been a single peak, coinciding with the blood draw.
Or, I have seen Total T's at midrange, but Bioavailable still low; especially in the aging population where SHBG can significantly elevate.
living2die
Member
Is your half life quote based off of subq or IM protocol? IM half life is around 33 hrs.
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NewAtThis10
New member
What is that about? Herpes as in 'cold sores'? HCG will give you a breakout?
I've gotten cold sores from time to time (about one or two a year) and they suck. Why would HCG cause a herpes breakout?
living2die
Member
Dr J,
Are you referring too this low dose (500IU PW) of HCG for your TRT + HCG patients, or are you referring to your HCG Mono patients ?
Are you referring too this low dose (500IU PW) of HCG for your TRT + HCG patients, or are you referring to your HCG Mono patients ?
The Matrix
Well-known member
increase of estrodial can alter ones immune system if they are predisposed.
The Matrix
Well-known member
Dr John good to see you are back
Mikey851
Active member
Hey guys, I'm going on my 4th shot at 2000 units HCG twice a week; after I finish this vial I will be going in for labs. Now as I understand it this is a high dosage; I am not sure what the doctor plans on doing, if he is just wanting to see how I respond at first or what. I don't know how long it's supposed to take to feel symptoms of E2 but I feel great with no symtoms as of yet.
living2die
Member
Great to here another positive response to HCG monotherapy ! If you need more than 308IU EOD, you will likely need to add in adjacent exo-T, as you are either primary, or leaning towards primary.
If your doc demands that you provide him with valid information regarding conservative HCG dosing (many endocrinologists, etc, rely on ancient secondary hypogonadism studies to perscribe their hcg doses. This merck manual for HRT contains information formulating a low dose HCG treatment option for those with secondary hypogonadism.
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If your doc demands that you provide him with valid information regarding conservative HCG dosing (many endocrinologists, etc, rely on ancient secondary hypogonadism studies to perscribe their hcg doses. This merck manual for HRT contains information formulating a low dose HCG treatment option for those with secondary hypogonadism.
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colkurtz_spf
The horror
Why would he need exogenous test if he achieves good levels on 4000 IUs per week? By the way, the study you posted recommends using up to 2000 IUs 3 times per week if necessary.
living2die
Member
While he does feel well off of 4000 IU PW, the labs might tell a different tale. As he has stated, it is too early to predict how well he will do in the long run off of HCG mono, without lab profiles and a greater timeline to work with in detailing how well he is responding to the treatment. Also I posted the Merck readout because it actually entertained the possibility of using low dose HCG for secondary hypogonadism. Most only mention super high doses, in the thousands of IU's per week. This pharma handout at least suggests that low dose might be an option.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Congratulations! You'll probably be able to reduce that dose and achieve good results, but I don't think it's high. It sounds like your doctor knows what he's doing.
I'm on 1600 twice per week. I started three years ago after being badly shut down from testosterone therapy. My doc had me on 10,000 IUs per week the first three months and 8000 per week the rest of the first year. That in my opinion is high. I maintain TT around 950 on 1000 twice per week. About 7 months ago I decided to give the test/HCG combo a try. I didn't experience as severe a shut down as I had before, but it didn't feel as good as HCG alone. Last month I returned to monotherapy. I'll be back on my old dose by the end of next week. I'm feeling normal again.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
Everyone is different.
living2die
Member
Colonel,
You mentioned that at your HCG sweet spot dose, you didn't need to use ADEX (I think if I remember correctly).
At 3200IU PW, do you need ADEX or an alternative A.I. ? I think you would feel/look awesome if you were able to throw in a DHT cream/gel...but as I recall, DHT isn't available in the US. Why there is so much variance between USA and the rest of the world in terms of synchronized medical treatments for particular ailments, I would really like to know the answer lol
You mentioned that at your HCG sweet spot dose, you didn't need to use ADEX (I think if I remember correctly).
At 3200IU PW, do you need ADEX or an alternative A.I. ? I think you would feel/look awesome if you were able to throw in a DHT cream/gel...but as I recall, DHT isn't available in the US. Why there is so much variance between USA and the rest of the world in terms of synchronized medical treatments for particular ailments, I would really like to know the answer lol
Mikey851
Active member
I hope my labs turn out well. I was put on androgel when I was 17 because I was making no testosterone but my LH was normal; I guess the androgel helped to develop my balls or something because after I discontinued it 6 months later I was at a total testosterone of 700. I only went back to the doctor recently because I was noticing symptoms of low testosterone again. This time around my LH level was low. I am curious to see the results of the HCG mono. If they turn out good I may try a small run of Clomid with no HCG to see if I can jumpstart my whole system back to proper function (I know this is rare but there are cases of reversed idiopathic hypogonadotropic hypogonadism which is what the doc thinks I might have seeing as every other lab he has drawn looks good and my MRI looks okay). We will see what happens.
living2die
Member
mattmuscle
New member
The doses of hCG that you are on are far in excess of what Dr Crisler seems to recommend. I have read many times that he does not recommend anything over 500iu in one shot.
Your success with these doses is certainly making me rethink how hCG should be used. It does make sense as I tried hCG monotherapy a few times but it was always EOD or 3 times a week and I even tried a daily routine, but as you mention it seemed to stop working for me.
When i used hCG only once a week alongside exo T shots, I noticed that I felt the effects of each shot more so or more consistently.
Your posts on monotherapy have been very interesting.
It would also make sense that perhaps the testes do need these high doses initially after being shut down for a long period.
I was on TRT for 5 years and gave it all up a year ago, after being unhappy with the results. Your monotherapy has inspired me to give hCG another go with less frequent dosing.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I've been taking Arimidex as a precaution. I won't know if it is necessary on this protocol until I draw. It's a shame that DHT cream isn't available in the US. before I started HRT my DHT level was in the low range (mid 20s). On the higher doses of HCG it went over 100. On my optimal dose it's usually between 76 and 78. Right now, if I had to guess I'd say it's between 80 and 90. I like the feeling of higher DHT.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I don't know your age, but if you're a good responder it's certainly worth a try. I took an 8 month break from everything over a year ago. When I weened off HCG, and reduced to one shot per week I still felt pretty good. I like twice per week (one four day break), but I think I could probably do well with a shot every five days. I read that HCG induces a second testosterone elevation after day three. If I can find that research paper I'll post it.
Good luck!
Mikey851
Active member
I would like to weigh 200 or so; that would actually be imposing lol.
Dr. John
Member
The study employed a massive dose of HCG; the biphasic response is proof of desensitization.
Very, very few will need Arimidex on HCG-only TRT when the HCG is dosed appropriately. It's an unnecessary expense, and wrong to introduce a drug needlessly.
Dr. John
Member
I and Drs. Shippen and Gordon.
Those of us who understand how HCG works keep dosing within appropriate range.
colkurtz_spf
The horror
I agree. I don't require any Arimidex at my optimal dose which I'll be resuming next week. I have to tell you though that HCG alone feels much better for me than the transdermal combo. I gave it a 6 month try. My numbers looked good, but the feeling wasn't the same. I know that others have had an entirely different experience.
living2die
Member
The problem is, for the 99% of bodybuilders who don't have Arnold's genes, AAS use will result in a considerably puffy, chubby face. While your physique might improve, your face will suffer. Look at Jay Cutler, while he has super low bodyfat, his face looks like that of a chipmunk harvesting acorns for winter.
mattmuscle
New member
Thanks for your comments Dr John.
The Matrix
Well-known member
That is not from steroid use thats from GH and IGf-1 and insulin abuse. I know tons of guys who have been on AAS and have a normal lookiing face because they watch what they eat and do not get fat and heavy in the offseason like the pros DO. Been there done that learned my lesson and decided that life style does not pay the bills or is as healthy as every one thinks it is. I am more into the antiaging and staying healthy not rather getting big and bulky. As we get older we look back and say "WTF was I thinking" now I try to steer guys away from that lifestyle and refuse to help guys that decided to go that route. I get tons of PM's wanting me to help with their diets, but they want to use AAS so i decline.
living2die
Member
I agree with you about the use of AAS related compounds for illicit purposes. I have greater quality of life and well being when I am at 145lbs, running 6-7 miles per day at 6:00 minute mile pace on the treadmill than when I thought I could use AAS as a panacea for my inferiority complex. I like having a lean face, exposed/protruding rib cage, and lean but well defined musculature vs. the bloated look I got when I was using T/Nandrolone. I feel a lot more attractive, and can tell that I get more 'damn I'd love to dip him in butter and do him' looks when I am skinny and lean, vs. looking like the Michelin Man.
At 5'11.5'', and not weighing a pound over 150lbs prior to dabbling in the wrong kind of AAS, you can imagine the looks of ambivalence on my friends and family, and often hearing side conversations proclaiming, 'he has gained a lot of weight.'
I feel super confident in my demeanor and have come to enjoy the remarks since my most recent weight loss plan has got me back down to the 145-150lbs range where I belong.
At 5'11.5'', and not weighing a pound over 150lbs prior to dabbling in the wrong kind of AAS, you can imagine the looks of ambivalence on my friends and family, and often hearing side conversations proclaiming, 'he has gained a lot of weight.'
I feel super confident in my demeanor and have come to enjoy the remarks since my most recent weight loss plan has got me back down to the 145-150lbs range where I belong.