Havov Cycle / Possible 11-oxo stack/bridge - help

[greg232323]

Hi all,

Looking to run a havoc cycle recently purchased. I am 34 years old. 5'10 about 205 lbs. Looking to lean out, lose some fat, and gain a little muscle at the same time. I have ran some pro-hormone cycles in my early 20's and as some young kids do, did not follow proper PCT and ran into some gyno issues. Now at 34 I am looking into this again but want to do things a little better. My plan is run this below:

Havoc

Wk 1 - 20/mg
Wk 2-4 30/mg

I have heard running it up to 40/mg per day is better but I did not want to over do it.

For Cycle support I was going to use:

ProteX by Vital Alchemy

For PCT I have:

Rebirth - Black Lion Research
Kings Blood - Olympus Labs
Eradicate - Blackstone Labs

Am looking into getting Nolvadex but hard to find and be confident it is legit. Will also do blood work during PCT.

Let me know what you guys think...

I also have 11-oxo and would maybe like to stack or bridge but not sure the best way to go about that. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all.

 

[kissdadookie]

Epistane right? My least liked pro.

 

[Renew1]

Hi all,

Looking to run a havoc cycle recently purchased. I am 34 years old. 5'10 about 205 lbs. Looking to lean out, lose some fat, and gain a little muscle at the same time. I have ran some pro-hormone cycles in my early 20's and as some young kids do, did not follow proper PCT and ran into some gyno issues. Now at 34 I am looking into this again but want to do things a little better. My plan is run this below:

Havoc

Wk 1 - 20/mg
Wk 2-4 30/mg

I have heard running it up to 40/mg per day is better but I did not want to over do it.

For Cycle support I was going to use:

ProteX by Vital Alchemy

For PCT I have:

Rebirth - Black Lion Research
Kings Blood - Olympus Labs
Eradicate - Blackstone Labs

Am looking into getting Nolvadex but hard to find and be confident it is legit. Will also do blood work during PCT.

Let me know what you guys think...

I also have 11-oxo and would maybe like to stack or bridge but not sure the best way to go about that. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you all.

Here you go (reliable)...

Tamoxifen – MA Research Chems

maresearchchems.net

Not sure what you mean by "bridge", but I've come to almost hate that term.
Almost everyone who uses it, either doesn't know what it means, or has their own definition for it.

Regardless.... I'm not a fan of "bridging", regardless of definition.

 

[kissdadookie]

Going to get kind of spendy for that 11-oxo bridge. I would skip using it as a bridge and just run PCT tbh.

 

[greg232323]

Epistane right? My least liked pro.

Yea, how come? I hear it is great for cutting. I took the old EPI2A3A back in the day and worked great.. except for me not using any PCT

 

[greg232323]

Going to get kind of spendy for that 11-oxo bridge. I would skip using it as a bridge and just run PCT tbh.

So dont bother with it and go right to my PCT? Was my PCT sufficient?

 

[kissdadookie]

Yea, how come? I hear it is great for cutting. I took the old EPI2A3A back in the day and worked great.. except for me not using any PCT

Just not a compound that agreed with me. By week 6 I was not enjoying the ride on that first cycle. Rode it out to my planned 8 weeks, hated it. People like to think of it as a “mild” compound but IMO, it was the one that felt like the harshest ride.

 

[greg232323]

Just not a compound that agreed with me. By week 6 I was not enjoying the ride on that first cycle. Rode it out to my planned 8 weeks, hated it. People like to think of it as a “mild” compound but IMO, it was the one that felt like the harshest ride.

Gotcha.. what do you think of my PCT? sufficient or needs work? Any suggestions?

 

[kissdadookie]

Yea, how come? I hear it is great for cutting. I took the old EPI2A3A back in the day and worked great.. except for me not using any PCT

Your missing clomid. IMO clomid > tamoxifen. Clomid you can do 25 mg ED for a month. You can do 50 mg ED but I would keep that to the first week. There are instances where clomid is ineffective but that’s likely due to the boys being extremely atrophied.

 

[greg232323]

Your missing clomid. IMO clomid > tamoxifen. Clomid you can do 25 mg ED for a month. You can do 50 mg ED but I would keep that to the first week. There are instances where clomid is ineffective but that’s likely due to the boys being extremely atrophied.

cool, good with the other PCT choices? When I did what I did when I was younger ran into some gyno issues. Do not want that to happen again.

 

[Renew1]

cool, good with the other PCT choices? When I did what I did when I was younger ran into some gyno issues. Do not want that to happen again.

Nolva is better at protecting from gyno during PCT, and also makes a great on cycle emergency gyno compound (superior to Clomid).

Those are some of the reasons that I always use Nolva rather than Clomid.

 

[kissdadookie]

cool, good with the other PCT choices? When I did what I did when I was younger ran into some gyno issues. Do not want that to happen again.

Tamoxifen can assist with mitigating the gyno somewhat, for purely restoring HPTA though, clomid works better for that (it’s essentially a oral LH mimetic).

 

[KvanH]

Nolva is better at protecting from gyno during PCT, and also makes a great on cycle emergency gyno compound (superior to Clomid).

Those are some of the reasons that I always use Nolva rather than Clomid.

Same here

 

[greg232323]

Tamoxifen can assist with mitigating the gyno somewhat, for purely restoring HPTA though, clomid works better for that (it’s essentially a oral LH mimetic).

thats why i thought rebirth would be good for both restoring test and keeping estrogen low. also have the eradicate if needed. Do you think these would work without the tamox or clomid?

 

[greg232323]

Nolva is better at protecting from gyno during PCT, and also makes a great on cycle emergency gyno compound (superior to Clomid).

Those are some of the reasons that I always use Nolva rather than Clomid.

is it only liquid or is there a pill form? I have some old taxoxifin about 7 years old still in my cabinet

 

[KvanH]

thats why i thought rebirth would be good for both restoring test and keeping estrogen low. also have the eradicate if needed. Do you think these would work without the tamox or clomid?

You need Tamox or Clomid (or Enclomiphene or Toremifene). Rebirth does not lower oestrogen btw. It's a natural serm of which we don't know too much about it's serm effectiveness. I would not trust E cottonii as my pct for Epistane.

 

[Renew1]

is it only liquid or is there a pill form? I have some old taxoxifin about 7 years old still in my cabinet

Mike only carries it in liquid form.

Is your Nolva caps?
What brand is it?

 

[Renew1]

Same here

I've used it almost exclusively for decades, and it has done me well.

 

[greg232323]

Mike only carries it in liquid form.

Is your Nolva caps?
What brand is it?

not sure. had it actually perscribed by the doc way back when. what is the dosage that should be taken of tamoxifin? I may still have enough if its still good.

 

[kissdadookie]

thats why i thought rebirth would be good for both restoring test and keeping estrogen low. also have the eradicate if needed. Do you think these would work without the tamox or clomid?

To be perfectly honest, the likelihood of recovering even without tamoxifen or clomid (or any PCT supplements) is very very high. The SERMs really helps with getting you there as quickly as possible short of hcG. The PCT supplements can help but at that point, what I would really be focusing on is getting health markers back into normal range more than anything. This means NAC (which you should have been using on cycle, I like 600 mg at least once a day, twice is better), pantethine (helps knock your cholesterol and lipids back), high potency and quality fish oil (helps with getting your cholesterol ratio back to normal). Those three are my major ones, other PCT specific formulations I view as nice haves.

Gyno, etc. issues aside of course. I’m speaking strictly from the aspect of HPTA recovery. I would suggest having something like tamoxifen on hand as an as needed emergency thing.

 

[KvanH]

I've used it almost exclusively for decades, and it has done me well.

Yep, many use it as the only serm they'll use.

Btw, congrats legend

 

[Renew1]

not sure. had it actually perscribed by the doc way back when. what is the dosage that should be taken of tamoxifin? I may still have enough if its still good.

I like to be safe, so ...
I'd probably recommend 30/20/20/10 (depending upon length of cycle, etc ...

 

[Renew1]

not sure. had it actually perscribed by the doc way back when. what is the dosage that should be taken of tamoxifin? I may still have enough if its still good.

If it was prescription, it should be caps/tabs.

It SHOULD still be good, as long as it wasn't exposed to moisture, heat, or sunlight.

 

[greg232323]

To be perfectly honest, the likelihood of recovering even without tamoxifen or clomid (or any PCT supplements) is very very high. The SERMs really helps with getting you there as quickly as possible short of hcG. The PCT supplements can help but at that point, what I would really be focusing on is getting health markers back into normal range more than anything. This means NAC (which you should have been using on cycle, I like 600 mg at least once a day, twice is better), pantethine (helps knock your cholesterol and lipids back), high potency and quality fish oil (helps with getting your cholesterol ratio back to normal). Those three are my major ones, other PCT specific formulations I view as nice haves.

I understand. My biggest fear as I am sure most have is the gyno. I had the issue in the past and dont want to have that happen again. I literally ran like 3 bottles in a row with no PCT in my 20s. not very smart

 

[kissdadookie]

I understand. My biggest fear as I am sure most have is the gyno. I had the issue in the past and dont want to have that happen again. I literally ran like 3 bottles in a row with no PCT in my 20s. not very smart

Keep that tamoxifen on hand

 

[greg232323]

I like to be safe, so ...
I'd probably recommend 30/20/20/10 (depending upon length of cycle, etc ...

I was only going to run the Havoc for 4 weeks at 20/30/30/30 or maybe 40 last week

 

[Renew1]

I was only going to run the Havoc for 4 weeks at 20/30/30/30 or maybe 40 last week

That sounds fine/great.
Except, I would either run it evenly, or I would titrate Down, not up.

 

[KvanH]

Also OP, 4 weeks is a very short time for a cut, no matter what products being used. If by bridging you mean jumping straight from running a compound to another, then in this case I think it would make sense. You could first run the 11-oxo for 4 - 6 weeks and then jump to the Epistane. That way you get 8 - 10 weeks of cutting and the 11-oxo shouldn't be too hard on your body. Just my thoughts.

 

[kissdadookie]

Also OP, 4 weeks is a very short time for a cut, no matter what products being used. If by bridging you mean jumping straight from running a compound to another, then in this case I think it would make sense. You could first run the 11-oxo for 4 - 6 weeks and then jump to the Epistane. That way you get 8 - 10 weeks of cutting and the 11-oxo shouldn't be too hard on your body. Just my thoughts.

^^^ Good idea.

 

[greg232323]

Also OP, 4 weeks is a very short time for a cut, no matter what products being used. If by bridging you mean jumping straight from running a compound to another, then in this case I think it would make sense. You could first run the 11-oxo for 4 - 6 weeks and then jump to the Epistane. That way you get 8 - 10 weeks of cutting and the 11-oxo shouldn't be too hard on your body. Just my thoughts.

I like that idea as well... what dosage of the 11-oxo do you think would be good? And with the tamox for pct what dosage as well?

 

[KvanH]

I like that idea as well... what dosage of the 11-oxo do you think would be good? And with the tamox for pct what dosage as well?

600 mg seems to be the lowest effective dose for most. Many go to 900 (and even beyond) and enjoy it even more. It wil be expensive, but that's PH's for ya.. For the Tamox I like to do 20/20/20/20 or 20/20/10/10, but I've seen several different dosing schemes and @Renew gave one good one above. With Tamox I think the tapering down makes a bit more sense, than with some other serms, due to the occupying of ER's on the breast tissue. So if you have high E2 an you don't know it and then drop the Tamox from 20 mg to 0, then you could have some gyno flare up when all the E docks to your ER's in the breast tissue.

 

[greg232323]

600 mg seems to be the lowest effective dose for most. Many go to 900 (and even beyond) and enjoy it even more. It wil be expensive, but that's PH's for ya.. For the Tamox I like to do 20/20/20/20 or 20/20/10/10, but I've seen several different dosing schemes and @Renew gave one good one above. With Tamox I think the tapering down makes a bit more sense, than with some other serms, due to the occupying of ER's on the breast tissue. So if you have high E2 an you don't know it and then drop the Tamox from 20 mg to 0, then you could have some gyno flare up when all the E docks to your ER's in the breast tissue.

do you think you need the tamox if using the 11-oxo only?

 

[kissdadookie]

500 mg at least to notice anything from 11-oxo IMO. 20/20/20/20 for the tamoxifen is a good recommendation.

 

[kissdadookie]

do you think you need the tamox if using the 11-oxo only?

Imo, no.

 

[greg232323]

Imo, no.

so when do you do your bloodwork? and wouldnt the doc just prescribe you something anyways if levels are out of wack?

 

[kissdadookie]

so when do you do your bloodwork? and wouldnt the doc just prescribe you something anyways if levels are out of wack?

I haven’t had to get frequent blood work in a long time after I ran through my stash of “stuff” awhile back so now I just get it done annually. The 11-oxo in all honesty, I don’t think it’s going to make that much of an impact on levels. That’s why it was suggested you can run that first and bridge into the epistane.

 

[greg232323]

I haven’t had to get frequent blood work in a long time after I ran through my stash of “stuff” awhile back so now I just get it done annually. The 11-oxo in all honesty, I don’t think it’s going to make that much of an impact on levels. That’s why it was suggested you can run that first and bridge into the epistane.

Thanks for the input. Really helpful. I am nervous to touch anything again after the last time but with some PCT I hope that with the mildness of the oxo and from what I head on the epistane I hope that I do not have any issues. I think in my 20s it was EPI 2A3a, then Chlorovar, then Tr3n.. What was I thinking

 

[greg232323]

I haven’t had to get frequent blood work in a long time after I ran through my stash of “stuff” awhile back so now I just get it done annually. The 11-oxo in all honesty, I don’t think it’s going to make that much of an impact on levels. That’s why it was suggested you can run that first and bridge into the epistane.

So just to confirm everything I am thinking this...

Week 1-4 - 11oxo 600MG up to 900MG
Still use ProteX Cycle support
Fish Oil

Week 5-8 - Havoc probably 30mg/week
ProteX Cycle support
Fish Oil

Week 9-12

Kings Blood
Rebirth
Tamoxifin (20/20/20/20)
Eradicate on hand if needed

This look good?

 

[kissdadookie]

Thanks for the input. Really helpful. I am nervous to touch anything again after the last time but with some PCT I hope that with the mildness of the oxo and from what I head on the epistane I hope that I do not have any issues. I think in my 20s it was EPI 2A3a, then Chlorovar, then Tr3n.. What was I thinking

I would think epistane would be one of the least likely candidates for you to get gyno from on-cycle (post cycle estrogen rebound is another matter altogether).

 

[greg232323]

I would think epistane would be one of the least likely candidates for you to get gyno from on-cycle (post cycle estrogen rebound is another matter altogether).

Yea i got gyno last time way after i was done with the bottles... think i am worried more about the post cycle rebound. thats where the tamox comes in?

 

[kissdadookie]

So just to confirm everything I am thinking this...

Week 1-4 - 11oxo 600MG up to 900MG
Still use ProteX Cycle support
Fish Oil

Week 5-8 - Havoc probably 30mg/week
ProteX Cycle support
Fish Oil

Week 9-12

Kings Blood
Rebirth
Tamoxifin (20/20/20/20)
Eradicate on hand if needed

This look good?

Swap out that ProteX for Liver Stabil and Lipid Stabil (Molecular Nutrition) and add in pantethine (I get mine from Jarrows). Get a bottle of TUDCA as well (I used Olympus Labs before, decent). Liver and Lipid Stabil, use at bottle recommended dosages. Pantethine @ 450mg twice a day. TUDCA @ 250mg twice a day. I recommend running those when you start the epistane as that’s mainly when you would benefit the most from them.

Start the tamoxifen after the epistane if you are super gyno sensitive.

 

[KvanH]

Ok so there were so many things I felt like commenting, lol. So I'll jump back up a bit.

Just not a compound that agreed with me. By week 6 I was not enjoying the ride on that first cycle. Rode it out to my planned 8 weeks, hated it. People like to think of it as a “mild” compound but IMO, it was the one that felt like the harshest ride.

I remember when not knowing much at all about this game and hearing stories about Epistane. Back then I thought it's the most harsh gear there is. So many had told me how harsh it was to them. But then later I've seen surprisingly many companies have the mildness of it being part of their marketing for it. I also remember @Renew1 say it was pretty harsh for him. Anyway Epi is a real deal and not the easiest PH to deal with. The 8 weeks you did is probably the longest I remember seeing someone running it. 4-6 weeks being typical and 6 weeks considered to be for advanced users.

Nolva is better at protecting from gyno during PCT, and also makes a great on cycle emergency gyno compound (superior to Clomid).

Those are some of the reasons that I always use Nolva rather than Clomid.

And I think with Epistane Nolva makes especially sense, since it's known to induce rebound gyno/E issues. Can be dealt with AI too of course.

Tamoxifen can assist with mitigating the gyno somewhat, for purely restoring HPTA though, clomid works better for that (it’s essentially a oral LH mimetic).

You are correct and I think Clomid (or enclomiphene even better) is the strongest serm for hpta kickstart due to it's highest binding affinity to ER's on the hypotalamus. But Tamox is very effective too and in practice it doesn't seem to really make a difference which one is used. Or that's what I've let myself to believe based on anecdotal experiences and with blood tests.

is it only liquid or is there a pill form? I have some old taxoxifin about 7 years old still in my cabinet

Is this a typo and you have Tamoxifen?

Mike only carries it in liquid form.

Is your Nolva caps?
What brand is it?

10 000 posts, that's legendary = )

The PCT supplements can help but at that point, what I would really be focusing on is getting health markers back into normal range more than anything. This means NAC (which you should have been using on cycle, I like 600 mg at least once a day, twice is better)

What about tudca? I've thougt that when ever I'd run any methyls (other than Proviron) I will take tudca. NAC is something I take every cycle no matter what. So you think nac is good enough and tudca is not needed when running methyls? I understand it's highly circumstantial and there isn't a blunt yes or no answer to with what support supps one can get away with. But generally you think nac is good enough?

 

[kissdadookie]

Ok so there were so many things I felt like commenting, lol. So I'll jump back up a bit.

I remember when not knowing much at all about this game and hearing stories about Epistane. Back then I thought it's the most harsh gear there is. So many had told me how harsh it was to them. But then later I've seen surprisingly many companies have the mildness if it being part their marketing for it. I also remember @Renew1 say it was pretty harsh for him. Anyway Epi is a real deal and not the easiest PH to deal with. The 8 weeks you did is probably the longest I remember seeing someone running it. 4-6 weeks being typical and 6 weeks considered to be for advanced users.

And I think with Epistane Nolva makes especially sense, since it's known to induce rebound gyno/E issues. Can be dealt with AI too of course.

You are correct and I think Clomid (or enclomiphene even better) is the strongest serm for hpta kickstart due to it's highest binding affinity to ER's on the hypotalamus. But Tamox is very effective too and in practice it doesn't seem to really make a difference which one is used. Or that's what I've let myself to believe based on anecdotal experiences and with blood tests.

Is this a typo and you have Tamoxifen?

10 000 posts, that's legendary = )

What about tudca? I've thougt that when ever I'd run any methyls (other than Proviron) I will take tudca. NAC is something I take every cycle no matter what. So you think nac is good enough and tudca is not needed when running methyls? I understand it's highly circumstantial and there isn't a blunt yes or no answer to with what support supps one can get away with. But generally you think nac is good enough?

Yup, TUDCA slipped my mind But I was thinking PCT, so TUDCA I use to run a week into a cycle and that lasts only a week into PCT.

Also, the epistane cycle was that long because I didn’t know any better at the time being a noob Everybody on the internet said it’s a great first cycle and super mild. Mild my butt. Thing was harsh AF for me. LoL. Also it was 8 weeks as I tapered it up and stretched it out to that length. Learned my lesson.

Forgot to mention, I didn’t take the epistane as a 8 week straight ED cycle. I remember it being EOD. 8 weeks ED, my liver would have exploded.

 

[KvanH]

Yup, TUDCA slipped my mind But I was thinking PCT, so TUDCA I use to run a week into a cycle and that lasts only a week into PCT.

Also, the epistane cycle was that long because I didn’t know any better at the time being a noob Everybody on the internet said it’s a great first cycle and super mild. Mild my butt. Thing was harsh AF for me. LoL. Also it was 8 weeks as I tapered it up and stretched it out to that length. Learned my lesson.

Forgot to mention, I didn’t take the epistane as a 8 week straight ED cycle. I remember it being EOD. Like 8 weeks ED, my liver would have exploded.

Yeah ok and I saw you mention the tudca above, I was still typing.

Haha, "everybody on the internet said..". Classic = )

Well that eod is even more weird of a cycle though

 

[kissdadookie]

Yeah ok and I saw you mention the tudca above, I was still typing.

Haha, "everybody on the internet said..". Classic = )

Well that eod is even more weird of a cycle though

EOD idea also came from reading internet posts.

Lastly OP, there is a anabolics section on this board. This thread really should have gone there. LoL.

 

[greg232323]

Swap out that ProteX for Liver Stabil and Lipid Stabil (Molecular Nutrition) and add in pantethine (I get mine from Jarrows). Get a bottle of TUDCA as well (I used Olympus Labs before, decent). Liver and Lipid Stabil, use at bottle recommended dosages. Pantethine @ 450mg twice a day. TUDCA @ 250mg twice a day. I recommend running those when you start the epistane as that’s mainly when you would benefit the most from them.

Start the tamoxifen after the epistane if you are super gyno sensitive.

Should I use only the tamoxafin for pct or still use the kings blood and rebirth? Also eradicate or leave that out since we will use the tamoxifin? I have the perscription from when I was presecribed it from when i went to the doc years ago for the gyno issue.

 

[greg232323]

Should I use only the tamoxafin for pct or still use the kings blood and rebirth? Also eradicate or leave that out since we will use the tamoxifin? I have the perscription from when I was presecribed it from when i went to the doc years ago for the gyno issue.

i believe they were small 10mg caps

 

[kissdadookie]

Should I use only the tamoxafin for pct or still use the kings blood and rebirth? Also eradicate or leave that out since we will use the tamoxifin? I have the perscription from when I was presecribed it from when i went to the doc years ago for the gyno issue.

PCT: your SERM + pantethine + NAC + fish oil

I don’t really like natural test boosters as they more or less don’t do anything meaningful in terms of actual HPTA recovery. I try them sometimes when they come out with a brand new novel ingredient but that’s purely out of curiosity. Skip the Rebirth and skip the Eradicate. That tamoxifen will do a whole lot more than the Kings Blood + Rebirth + Eradicate.

 

[KvanH]

Should I use only the tamoxafin for pct or still use the kings blood and rebirth? Also eradicate or leave that out since we will use the tamoxifin? I have the perscription from when I was presecribed it from when i went to the doc years ago for the gyno issue.

The Rebirth doesn't add anything here with the Tamox in the picture. If you already have it and want to use it, then I'd use it after the Tamox. Kings Blood has some decent ingridients iirc, so you can use it for mood and to possibly lower shbg, which can rise from the Tamox. Eradicate hmm.. It's some kind of otc AI, right? Arimistane? Arimistane is a weak AI, but can lower cortisol some, so it's an ok addition to pct. You should allways have a real AI on hand though, when running anything hormonal. Especially if you're gyno prone.

 

[KvanH]

That tamoxifen will do a whole lot more than the Kings Blood + Rebirth + Eradicate.

This ^^