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Havoc Begins

Lol triuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. You should need atleaat 3+ years of training before doing to the dark side :D
 
6andaHalf said:
It's really good that you seem motivated but I honestly need to give you some tough love in saying that I think you probably should have done a lot more research and got a little bit more of a routine diet and training under your belt before you started cycling synthetics. Based on your pictures, you could put loads of muscle on without steroids with a good diet and strong program. You have to understand the people telling you that you look bigger has nothing to do with what you're taking. That's all natural because you're actually working hard. These Pro hormones take weeks to build up in your system and start taking effect.

If I were you I would just start reading the best logs you can find from the most experienced people on this forum. You need to make sure that you set out a good diet that is not just winging it and eating as much as you can and also get a set routine in the gym that does not consist of 6 days on and 1 off. 3-4 days is far better. If you want to hit group twice per week then fine but you can do that in 4 days. Your body needs rest for growth more than it needs to the gym for growth. I'm not coming down on you but I read through some of these posts and it kind of worries me. Get a diet plan and 3-4 day routine worked out and lets hear it. Its not as easy as take a pill, lift hard as many days a week as possible and eat as much as possible. Sorry for the toughness but at 155 with what seems to be very little lifting knowledge, this seemed needed. You're taking steroids, man.
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I completely agree with pushing natural as hard as you can till much closer to your peak natural performance. However the thing I do disagree with is recovery time is much faster when using pro hormones so that should be maximized. Also for hard gainers weight comes on faster (generally) when training 5xweek with weights. As long as there is enough sleep, enough macro and micro nutrients the body should be able to recover fine with a 6xweek program if set up correctly, especially with pro hormones. I dont mean to start an argument or anything just putting in my knowledge as a PT.
So Mr. Chase I imagine will make up his own mind as will everyone else on this forum so I think the best thing to keep in mind is to get as much advice as one can and critically anylize it for yourself and come up with an educated decision best on all info.

Hopefully didn't offend anyone.
 
leanfrk said:
However the thing I do disagree with is recovery time is much faster when using pro hormones so that should be maximized. Also for hard gainers weight comes on faster (generally) when training 5xweek with weights. As long as there is enough sleep, enough macro and micro nutrients the body should be able to recover fine with a 6xweek program if set up correctly, especially with pro hormones. I dont mean to start an argument or anything just putting in my knowledge as a PT.
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What?! I also don't mean to offend so I hope you don't get upset if I'm curt here, BUT...

First of all, he isn't taking a prohormone. He's taking a steroid. Second, since when do hardgainers do better with less rest? That's completely counterintuitive. There's no way spending more time in the gym will add more mass to someone whose body is already reluctant to do so, even with the aid of steroids. The harder it is for someone to gain, the less time they should spend in the gym. He needs to apply a stimulus for growth - that's training intensely - and then go home and eat. Minimal physical activity outside the gym, plenty of sleep, and a day of rest between each session is probably ideal. A Doggcrapp-style split would probably be best for him; not a Doggcrapp routine, as that's too advanced for him, but the split would be ideal. The body split into two sessions, training Monday/Wednesday/Friday, or at least every other day. I've never ever ever seen or heard anything to make me believe or even suggest that hardgainers do better training more often, steroids or otherwise. And it's not like he's on a heavy cycle that will supercharge his recovery capacity. It's just Epi.

Again, sorry if I sound rough, but it just really threw me to read that. If you've got data to support your point I'll apologize and backtrack, but I don't think such data exists.

Man, there's a ton of hot chicks just pouring out of the grocery store, and I'm sitting here in my truck wasting time effing around with you guys...
 
I love you guys. I know I should have waited and done more but that's too late. Thanks for the advice even it if means arguing amongst yourselves. Have a good weekend everyone! And go get them girls bro!
 
I started out <170 lbs @ 6'6" so lean is an understatement. The less time for me to generate a proper growth stimulus, the better. Its just more cals burned than used for hypertrophy after a certain point. Everyone has a different curve for optimum recovery, I just see a hardgainer like myself when I see your pics. Time will tell what works best for you.
 
So week 1 is in the books. Starting weight 150. Weight now is 158-160 depending on time of day. Pretty much all gains I've gotten have been very lean muscle. Pecs starting to form, shoulders getting more defined and round. Overall, good first week. Looking forward to second week at 30 and then 40 for the 3rd - 5th week. Thanks again for all the advice and lectures guys. It really means a lot.
 
SkinnyChase said:
So week 1 is in the books. Starting weight 150. Weight now is 158-160 depending on time of day. Pretty much all gains I've gotten have been very lean muscle. Pecs starting to form, shoulders getting more defined and round. Overall, good first week. Looking forward to second week at 30 and then 40 for the 3rd - 5th week. Thanks again for all the advice and lectures guys. It really means a lot.
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It would be really helpful for you to get advice on your routine and diet from some of these guys. Maybe post that up... It's great that you're gaining weight but 10 pounds in the first week is not going to consist of all lean muscle, not by a long shot. You wont see any out of the ordinary visible muscular gains for 2-3+ weeks from epi. How long have you trained naturally before this?
 
6andaHalf said:
It would be really helpful for you to get advice on your routine and diet from some of these guys. Maybe post that up... It's great that you're gaining weight but 10 pounds in the first week is not going to consist of all lean muscle, not by a long shot. You wont see any out of the ordinary visible muscular gains for 2-3+ weeks from epi. How long have you trained naturally before this?
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This is opinion and/or one person's experience. My personal experience with Epi(and a few people I know) is that on a sound diet with hardcore training and a clean lifestyle u can notice considerable changes in the first week. Part of it can be the glycogen or the pump u get from chemical help. But every time I do epi I notice something by days 3-5. Weight increase at the 1 week mark for me are probably more in the 4-5 lb range and its lean tissue. I am a concrete/construction worker so its already hard to even eat enough and when I gain, its not fat mass. This I promise you. BUT I have been training for years. A newb is going to gain very rapidly and with chemical help only more so. If you are eating clean and protein rich, u mite possibly hit 10 lbs of lean muscle mass from my experience. But I'd say more likely if you were on the 30 mg per day or 40. My .02¢
 
tinytony said:
This is opinion and/or one person's experience. My personal experience with Epi(and a few people I know) is that on a sound diet with hardcore training and a clean lifestyle u can notice considerable changes in the first week. Part of it can be the glycogen or the pump u get from chemical help. But every time I do epi I notice something by days 3-5. Weight increase at the 1 week mark for me are probably more in the 4-5 lb range and its lean tissue. I am a concrete/construction worker so its already hard to even eat enough and when I gain, its not fat mass. This I promise you. BUT I have been training for years. A newb is going to gain very rapidly and with chemical help only more so. If you are eating clean and protein rich, u mite possibly hit 10 lbs of lean muscle mass from my experience. But I'd say more likely if you were on the 30 mg per day or 40. My .02¢
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no


youd be lucky to hit 10lbs in first week of superdrol, let alone epistane. those first 4-5 lbs is just glycogen and it should go away at the end of the cycle
 
tinytony said:
This is opinion and/or one person's experience. My personal experience with Epi(and a few people I know) is that on a sound diet with hardcore training and a clean lifestyle u can notice considerable changes in the first week. Part of it can be the glycogen or the pump u get from chemical help. But every time I do epi I notice something by days 3-5. Weight increase at the 1 week mark for me are probably more in the 4-5 lb range and its lean tissue. I am a concrete/construction worker so its already hard to even eat enough and when I gain, its not fat mass. This I promise you. BUT I have been training for years. A newb is going to gain very rapidly and with chemical help only more so. If you are eating clean and protein rich, u mite possibly hit 10 lbs of lean muscle mass from my experience. But I'd say more likely if you were on the 30 mg per day or 40. My .02¢
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Waaay off, but I see how people think it may be lean tissue. You look fuller but you just said yourself glycogen can be a big factor. That's not lean tissue, its the muscle fullness effect it has. These are the pounds that will go bye bye usually when you come off.

People really have a terrible misconception of what "lean tissue" really is. 4-5 lbs is a HUGE gain and takes months, naturally. You think you're going to take epi for a single week and hit 5-10 Lbs of LBM? In that case... he's done, time for PCT!! Good cycle!!

Keep at it Skinny, nothing to demotivate... just keeping the reality in here. Commence ass kickage
 
tinytony said:
I'll post what I've kept two months after my cycle and see.
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Hope you keep everything and had a great run, I really do... but you (or anyone you know) has not packed on 5 lbs of lean muscle the first week of epi. Its that simple. Posting post cycle pics will prove nothing but a good or bad overall run.

Even if you gain 15-20 lbs and keep it all. It is not all LBM and def was not 5 lbs of LBM the first week... That's almost a pound a day of SOLID MUSCLE after the very first dose, dude. An absolutely asinine thought.
 
2 cents...

First off I'd be careful labeling yourself a hardgainer. While it may seem hard to put on a few pounds of muscle or you may not be a natural meso type, I think deciding to be something (before you even start) that makes you feel like it will always be a struggle, is probably not a good state of mind to workout in from the get go.
Why do I say this!?
Because I was you years ago and labeled myself one for years and always felt like I was cheated or some crap. Also, I seemed to use it as an excuse not to get in the gym and be the absolute best I could be. Okay, so we are all not Coans, or Coleman's but they are not naturally supplemented and also may have a few advantages. Most average guys can attain a 300BP, 400Sqt, 500DL status or close to it. That is pretty good being natural and around or under #200 BW.
The biggest thing I learned and what made the absolute biggest difference, was 2 fold,
1) To quit training or at least focusing on the small muscles and focus almost entirely on the big groups and compound exercises. Namely the legs, back, hips, shoulders, chest. When I started I was 6' and weighed #155-#160. I am and have for years been anywhere from #225-#265.(the biggest power strenght and weight will come from the biggest muscle, legs, back etc. etc.
2) Eating enough real food. Not many shakes. They cost too much anyway and they never did what potatoes, green beans, rice, whole chickens etc. etc. etc. did will do.
I am not an elite lifter by total, by any means, but can hold my own and train along side most anyone squatting, deadlifting, rowing some pressing but the pressing has fallen off as I have gotten older. Except for using some creatine, it is all naturally built muscle over the years.
Just sayin' be careful looking for those short cuts. There are none when training in a straight line. Really like and look forward to working out and setting short term goals with longer bigger ones on the horizon.
Use the big exercises to get big and strong and eat well. It is really that simple.
I no longer feel or act like a hardgainer. I am a regular gainer, just like everybody else is. I just did not start with the same bone structure, but you might be surprised how far you can go with dogged determination and no labels on yourself. Think big
Okay, I'm done preaching, but someday you will look back and say this to another young guy starting out.
 
We don't give any room for genetics or people reacting differently on here do we.. in the end its still bro science and personal experience. I am in tune with my body and have very fast metabolism and each cycle I've ever done I rip down. Epi always hits me hardest in first two weeks. Always. Again that's only my own experience. I up the dosage at well two and keep gaining but its much slower
 
tinytony said:
We don't give any room for genetics or people reacting differently on here do we.. in the end its still bro science and personal experience. I am in tune with my body and have very fast metabolism and each cycle I've ever done I rip down. Epi always hits me hardest in first two weeks. Always. Again that's only my own experience. I up the dosage at well two and keep gaining but its much slower
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We've all read a hundred epi logs and they all look pretty much the same. Epi solo I put on 12 in two weeks, epi and 4ad I put on 18 in three (I like to drop carbs and creatine pre-cycle and add them back in, makes for better bragging) and didn't gain any weight after that. Actually dropped 8 switching out 4ad for stano.
Strength comes day 18-20, continuing to get leaner from there on out. That's how 90% of the many epi logs go.
Weeks 3-6, that's where the glycogen and water becomes replaced with actual muscle fiber and more permanent sarcoplasmic tissue. We run 6 weeks so we feel good and feel strong for longer, but also to give our bodies a chance to get used to the new size, feed the new size, maintain it.
Like I discussed with my buddy, if the first two weeks' weight was legit, why don't we all run 8 cycles a year, 2on/4off and all look like Coleman (or Zane) and move weight like Coan? Because they're not legit.
 
herderdude said:
We've all read a hundred epi logs and they all look pretty much the same. Epi solo I put on 12 in two weeks, epi and 4ad I put on 18 in three (I like to drop carbs and creatine pre-cycle and add them back in, makes for better bragging) and didn't gain any weight after that. Actually dropped 8 switching out 4ad for stano.
Strength comes day 18-20, continuing to get leaner from there on out. That's how 90% of the many epi logs go.
Weeks 3-6, that's where the glycogen and water becomes replaced with actual muscle fiber and more permanent sarcoplasmic tissue. We run 6 weeks so we feel good and feel strong for longer, but also to give our bodies a chance to get used to the new size, feed the new size, maintain it.
Like I discussed with my buddy, if the first two weeks' weight was legit, why don't we all run 8 cycles a year, 2on/4off and all look like Coleman (or Zane) and move weight like Coan? Because they're not legit.
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Yeah I can see the logic in this:-)
 
herderdude said:
Weeks 3-6, that's where the glycogen and water becomes replaced with actual muscle fiber and more permanent sarcoplasmic tissue. We run 6 weeks so we feel good and feel strong for longer, but also to give our bodies a chance to get used to the new size, feed the new size, maintain it.
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Ding ding...

tinytony said:
Yeah I can see the logic in this:-)
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That's all I've been trying to say. It's just muscle fullness from glycogen and water at first, not actual muscle tissue. Otherwise Epi cycles would be 2 weeks long.

No argumentative basis here or anything, its really important people don't get the wrong idea about whats happening during their cycle though. Can't have people thinking they will gain 5-10 lbs of lean tissue the first week. Its important they know how the later weeks are really going to be the factor of maintaining this new size. Those last weeks are what fully develops the gains that you can hold with proper pct. The beginning is all fluff if you don't follow through at the same level for the weeks ahead and fight to maintain it.

I'd also warn OP to be careful about possible injuries in the early weeks. People feel the need to go to failure every set with nothing but placebo and some water weight in the beginning and an injury now spells disaster for the rest of the cycle. Obey your body and pace yourself for weeks 3-6 (not to mention PCT), that's going to be the end all be all. Not to say don't work hard... but make sure to work smart.

This is why is so beneficial to have years of lifting ex under your belt. PHs for newb lifters ends in injuries a lot due to technique flaws and just overdoing it in the early weeks thinking more is better and to go full on or go home. These are the kind of people who end up at home anyway, injured. Lift smart and follow a proven routine. Don't shoot from the hip if your a new lifter on a PH.
 
Off subject but I'm injured. Not severely but I can't tilt or move my head to the left side AT ALL not even half an inch without having excruciating pain shoot down my back. It's been this way for 6 days and getting worse. Really hindering my workouts. Hoping to still do a majority of my workouts with less intensity so we will see how that goes. This is day 9 of my Havoc cycle and I got my first "back pump" tonight while at work. After sitting for some time I got up and it felt like my kidney on the left side was cramping up. Hurt like a motha but its all part of the ride. Still hovering at 160-162 so that's good. Arms are bigger slightly and upper body is starting to get that "V" shape look which I've never had. Keep you guys updated when I see a doc or chiropractor sometime this week.
 
Question guys: just picked up some amino burst 3000 from a well known store lol also grabbed some Whey protein to go along with my gainer shake. When should I take the amino acids for maximum effect? They have BCAA also. Thanks.
 
SkinnyChase said:
Question guys: just picked up some amino burst 3000 from a well known store lol also grabbed some Whey protein to go along with my gainer shake. When should I take the amino acids for maximum effect? They have BCAA also. Thanks.
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You could take it to the extreme an have the bcaa shake after every meal. Really help with muscles swallowing all the protein you're consuming
 
SkinnyChase said:
Well they are tablets. So it says take 3 a day.
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Well I'm crazy about BCAAs. Well, Leucine anyway. Isoleucine and valine need carbs to work properly. But that 3 pill dose is very under dosed with all 3. If u want that supplement to work to a noticeable degree, you'd need to take like 12-15 pills every dose. Otherwise what u have there is like taking 8-10 grams of protein. Id take them with breakfast and or your post workout whole food meal. My opinion. I take leucine on and off cycle all day long. Definitely helps you feel big and full and recovery
 
Well here's my update pic!




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Hahah totally kidding. Thought you'd enjoy this on this beautiful Sunday. Will post a pic tomorrow.
 
Good luck with the neck pain man. Fill us in what the doc says.

Sounds like a sniff neck but even that can really put a damper on the run. This early in the cycle... its FAR more important to get healthy for weeks 3-6 than to push at ALL so early in the cycle.
 
So I weighed 148 lbs at my last psychiatry appointment 3 weeks ago. That's right before I started my cycle. Thought I weighed more. Now I weigh 161! He was stunned because I take Adderall for ADHD but he also put me on Remeron for anxiety which causes weight gain. I believe it's that plus this cycle as to why I've gained 13 pounds in 3 weeks. Still insane amount of weight for only starting week 3 of Havoc.
 
Here's some horrible quality pics lol

I haven't worked out in almost a week because of my neck so my muscles don't look as pumped as usual. Starting back working out tonight. I'm starting week 3 so I should be able to gain some more.



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Cycle is over! After 5 weeks of Havoc, here are my results. Starting weight 143lbs (no bullish) ending weight as of TODAY 165lbs. Now, I was an extremely hard gainer and had a sloppy diet at best but I gained a total of 22 lbs in 5 weeks which I think is amazing for an epi cycle. And this is my first ever cycle. Here's before and after pics. Couldn't be happier! First two are before. Rest are after.

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SkinnyChase said:
Feedback anyone? Thread seems to have died out....
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Happens when you don't post for a couple of weeks. Either way, looks like you're still holding a fair amount of water, judging by your face and lower abdomen. Get through pct and see what you've kept after that.
 
iparatroop said:
Happens when you don't post for a couple of weeks. Either way, looks like you're still holding a fair amount of water, judging by your face and lower abdomen. Get through pct and see what you've kept after that.
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Yeah I guess some is water weight. But I thought epistanen a dry compound. Guess its from the creatine? And here's a pic today. I'm at 170 now. I've literally, no bs gained a pound a day each of the last 4 days. And the four days have been PCT. So idk what's going on.

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SkinnyChase said:
But I thought epistanen a dry compound.
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Its a dry(er) compound. It still has properties that hold water which is why everyone told you not to get too excited about lbs at first. They really don't mean much until after your PCT is over and you can look back on the cycle. The part that matters starts now. Eat and try to keep your strength up.

And FWIW, after this cycle... I'd say try to gain naturally for a while. You can put on SO much more weight natty. Then run a cycle in a year or 2. No need for a PH with you being a near complete noob. You need to understand how to actually add muscle in the first place before you can benefit from things that *help* you add on muscle.
 
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