BeastMode 1
Member
Non-methyl cycles and injectables are better for your body and all(compared to methyls)...but are longer cycles and ones that shut you down harder(tren for example) worse for your body (hormone wise) in the long run?
hard shutdown worse for body/hormones in the long run??
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Lukef2000
Well-known member
Suppression is suppression. What matters is how fast you were suppressed and for how long. You can prevent total suppression by using hcg.
TheSaiyan
Well-known member
If suppression is suppression how can there be "total suppression" and what I'm guessing is "partial suppression"?
Lukef2000
Well-known member
Well the only way I know to get partial suppression is by supplementing hcg which trickle feeds leutinizing hormone to the testes to keep them producing.
jbryand101b
Banned
wrong
TheSaiyan
Well-known member
That's what I was thinking, so would you suggest maybe bridging it into pct or just saving it altogether?
jbryand101b
Banned
Bridge what?
Overall I'd say pct is better. Don't get hooked and feel like you "need" to be on. Aside from the other negatives, you always want to get in, get swoll, and get out as soon as you can.
Unless you plan on bodybuilding for a living.
Overall I'd say pct is better. Don't get hooked and feel like you "need" to be on. Aside from the other negatives, you always want to get in, get swoll, and get out as soon as you can.
Unless you plan on bodybuilding for a living.
TheSaiyan
Well-known member
Hcg, I was just wondering if say last 2 weeks of cycle you add it in then keep it going through pct.
And I agree about it being best during pct I was just trying to pick your brain a bit
jbryand101b
Banned
That Hcg plan would be fine, shock the testes in action.
Lukef2000
Well-known member
Hcg, I was just wondering if say last 2 weeks of cycle you add it in then keep it going through pct.
And I agree about it being best during pct I was just trying to pick your brain a bit
So your telling him to blast hcg toward the end of a cycle and continue use through pct? Worst advice I have seen re hcg in a long time. Jbry you've been around long enough to know that's the old school way of dosing. Hcg is suppressive and high dosing protocols can damage your leydig cells causing a permanent reduction of ITT ( intra testicular testosterone )
jbryand101b
Banned
dr scally is a bit more knowledgable on the subject, and he has a similar recommendation. I haven't looked at the power pct protocol used in a while though. the old school method (or you could say common) is to run hcg at a low dosage during your cycle to prevent your testicles from becoming desensitized in the first place. which way is better, during cycle, or in pct is a endless debate, and one you'll prob never see any data based evidence comparing.
jbryand101b
Banned
even when one runs deca @ 600mg e/d for 20 weeks, they are still producing lh. it isn't enough to stimulate the testicles into producing testosterone though. No one ever, esp not from oral or non ester compounds, is fully suppressed.
jiggero
Well-known member
No the old school method was to use it at the end of your cycle to jump start your testosterone and bring your balls back. The newer method is to use smaller doses throughout your cycle in more of a preventative way.
Lukef2000
Well-known member
The old school way like jiggero mentioned is using hcg at the end of your cycle. You advised Steven that it would be fine to run this way where currently there is evidence that this way can desensitize your leydig cells. The common way as you referred to it is the way to go. 250iu e3d is all you need ceasing a week before cessation of steroid use.
jbryand101b
Banned
If by newer method you mean the method I've seen recommended since as long as I can remember,( the physicians desk referance supposedly recommends the new school way, as well as did Dan duchane, the Aas guru from back in the day) well, I guess so. Could be cause I'm only 30, I don't know what they were doing in the 90's, 80's, or 70's. Never looked back that far.
I could be wrong, and would love some links showing methods used for Hcg from those times.
Till then, the power pct is the only data bc based pct protocol for steroid induced hypogonadism I've seen.
I could be wrong, and would love some links showing methods used for Hcg from those times.
Till then, the power pct is the only data bc based pct protocol for steroid induced hypogonadism I've seen.
jiggero
Well-known member
I should've just posted "Wrong" the way you like to do to people when they make a mistake. LOL
jbryand101b
Banned
I'm pretty sure I didn't make any mistakes. But if there is data showing showing it, ill humbly accept, an learn something new
jiggero
Well-known member
Wrong
jbryand101b
Banned
Power pct used by famous aas doctor, Dr mike scally, proven highly effective, even for the longest, harshest cycles.
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin -every other day. Day 1-30 : nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day) Day 31-45 : nolva 20mg/day
This I believe has been updated.
Quote from another user:
The PCT has been changed slightly for Anabolics 10th edition. Just HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - has been changed to 2000iu eod for 20 days instead of 2500iu for 16 days.
The claims are that in all 19 men who used this PCT after a steroid cycle, normal hormonal function was restored by the end of PCT.
It does seem old school but Dr. Scally is no idiot regular doctor. He has treated many guys with hpta -hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - issues from anabolic steroids.
He claims that his tests show that the doses of HCG -human chorionic gonadotropin - used for that duration do not desensitize the testes.
--------
Day 1-16 : 2500iu HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin -every other day. Day 1-30 : nolva 20mg/day; Clomid 100mg/day (50mg was taken twice per day) Day 31-45 : nolva 20mg/day
This I believe has been updated.
Quote from another user:
The PCT has been changed slightly for Anabolics 10th edition. Just HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - has been changed to 2000iu eod for 20 days instead of 2500iu for 16 days.
The claims are that in all 19 men who used this PCT after a steroid cycle, normal hormonal function was restored by the end of PCT.
It does seem old school but Dr. Scally is no idiot regular doctor. He has treated many guys with hpta -hypothalamic-pituitary-testicular axis - issues from anabolic steroids.
He claims that his tests show that the doses of HCG -human chorionic gonadotropin - used for that duration do not desensitize the testes.
--------
jbryand101b
Banned
The testes are hit hard HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - at the onset of therapy. It's intake however is limited to only 16 days.
The doctors undoubtably recognise that when HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, it can desensitise the lh - leutenizing hormone - receptor. This would only further exacerbate the problem, not help it.
Anti oestrogen's are used during and after HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - , with a dosage of 10 mg (*) of nolva and 100 mg Clomid per day rounding out this compliment of drugs.
Clomid is used for a shorter period of time than nolvadex , likely because of the desensitising it too can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use.
Among other things, these two anti oestrogen's will continue to foster lh - leutenizing hormone - release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by hcgs up-regulation of testicular aromatase activity.
Although in the first couple of weeks the anti oestrogen's probably do very little, they should be much more helpful towards the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects within 45 days of drug cessation.
This is a definite success, far more favourable than the protracted recovery window noted in studies without post cycle therapy, such as the 250 mg/week testenanthate investigation.
For me, I believe such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroidcycle . It's the best way to maintain your gains at their maximum and that is, after all what we are after
The doctors undoubtably recognise that when HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - is taken for too long, or at too high a dosage, it can desensitise the lh - leutenizing hormone - receptor. This would only further exacerbate the problem, not help it.
Anti oestrogen's are used during and after HCG - human chorionic gonadotropin - , with a dosage of 10 mg (*) of nolva and 100 mg Clomid per day rounding out this compliment of drugs.
Clomid is used for a shorter period of time than nolvadex , likely because of the desensitising it too can have (on the pituitary gland) with continued use.
Among other things, these two anti oestrogen's will continue to foster lh - leutenizing hormone - release as testosterone levels start to go back up, as well as combat any potential estrogenic side effects that may be caused by hcgs up-regulation of testicular aromatase activity.
Although in the first couple of weeks the anti oestrogen's probably do very little, they should be much more helpful towards the middle and end of the program. During this clinical investigation normal hormonal function was restored in all subjects within 45 days of drug cessation.
This is a definite success, far more favourable than the protracted recovery window noted in studies without post cycle therapy, such as the 250 mg/week testenanthate investigation.
For me, I believe such a detailed recovery program should follow any serious steroidcycle . It's the best way to maintain your gains at their maximum and that is, after all what we are after
stamp_on_kids
Member
That is very interesting info. It makes me feel like the desensitization fear may be a little over blown considering what people normally run, those dosages are at least higher than what I would use, and if they are fine it makes me feel a lot better about it.
HondaV65
Active member
I would not use HCG for PCT.
HCG will keep your testicular mass up if you use it on cycle and the theory is ... big balls will recover quicker during PCT.
Using HCG in PCT? Well, you have to remember here - what is the reason you have to use it in the first place? It's because your balls aren't producing test. Why aren't they producing test? Because your pituitary is sending no LH signal to your balls. HCG replaces the pituitary's role in producing LH. Well, it's not LH that HCG provides to your testicles - it's some synthetic form that acts like LH.
But the point is - the pituitary is STILL SHUT DOWN while you're using HCG in PCT. Your pituitary will not restart until the HCG is discontinued.
So best bet is ... use HCG sparingly during cycle (starting on 3rd week) and then STOP HCG so that it is out of your system immediately when you come off cycle. That way your pituitary can kick back in.
HPTA - IT'S MORE THAN TESTICLES FOLKS.
Balls aren't the only thing that will shutdown. Hypothalmus and Pituitary also shutdown. A successful PCT takes a holistic approach to recovering all elements of the axis.
HCG will keep your testicular mass up if you use it on cycle and the theory is ... big balls will recover quicker during PCT.
Using HCG in PCT? Well, you have to remember here - what is the reason you have to use it in the first place? It's because your balls aren't producing test. Why aren't they producing test? Because your pituitary is sending no LH signal to your balls. HCG replaces the pituitary's role in producing LH. Well, it's not LH that HCG provides to your testicles - it's some synthetic form that acts like LH.
But the point is - the pituitary is STILL SHUT DOWN while you're using HCG in PCT. Your pituitary will not restart until the HCG is discontinued.
So best bet is ... use HCG sparingly during cycle (starting on 3rd week) and then STOP HCG so that it is out of your system immediately when you come off cycle. That way your pituitary can kick back in.
HPTA - IT'S MORE THAN TESTICLES FOLKS.
Balls aren't the only thing that will shutdown. Hypothalmus and Pituitary also shutdown. A successful PCT takes a holistic approach to recovering all elements of the axis.