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Gyno returning

swoleman2010

swoleman2010

New member
Blood works is all within normal range.. Still low for my age (22).
577 test -dg/nl
33.9 E2 -pg/ml
10.5 free test -pg/ml

Took liquid tamox and pes erase, feel gyno starting to return . It's not visible , but it fluctuates when I go out for a drink it's worse in the gym almost non existant . I have script tamox now , pes erase , and ordered activate natural test booster to block shgb after gettig off the tamox. Is this a good plan or should I just see if the gyno will go away on it's own??
 
swoleman2010 said:
Blood works is all within normal range.. Still low for my age (22).
577 test -dg/nl
33.9 E2 -pg/ml
10.5 free test -pg/ml

Took liquid tamox and pes erase, feel gyno starting to return . It's not visible , but it fluctuates when I go out for a drink it's worse in the gym almost non existant . I have script tamox now , pes erase , and ordered activate natural test booster to block shgb after gettig off the tamox. Is this a good plan or should I just see if the gyno will go away on it's own??
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Is this from a cycle? How long ago was the cycle? Why do you think you have gyno significant growth of breast tissue or lump?
 
Switch to arimidex
577 is good range for health, you're not going to notice anything at all physiologically from 550-900 so don't worry about that
Make sure you're lean, you look pretty lean but back pic is hard to tell and usually it's the fatasses that post up their back because they have no abs lol. But make sure fat is low, arimidex 0.5mg twice a week maybe, you need to feel this one out.

Keep us updated
 
A ph cycle a few months ago. That I hadn't properly timed the pct.. My friend is taking liquid letro (research chem. and his is visibly noticeable ) and convinced it is working and hasn't experienced sides. But I'm very hesitant to completely destroy my E levels. The picture is not me I'm 6 ft 190 7-9% and i know it's there but my chest is very well developed so it makes it less visible . I just don't want to take a chance with it getting worse and turning into something that is easily visible as well as mentally frustrating
 
It gets worse when you drink because drinking can increase estrogen. There's alternate routes to letrozole. You already have nolva, get some raloxifene and use them together.
Is there actually a lump? Or just tenderness??
 
Take it as long as you have problems then for a few months. You'll know if there is too much because nipple will become inverted, joint pains etc
I'm not a fan of letro, but it is a good last ditch solution. But it's a terrible drug really.
 
Never use aromasin and tamoxifen in combination... one or the other
 
you need to research how tamoxifen works and look at the contraindictions listed before you combine drugs together
 
Sure thing buddy
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Keep up your quality posts
 
swoleman2010 said:
Blood works is all within normal range.. Still low for my age (22).
577 test -dg/nl
33.9 E2 -pg/ml
10.5 free test -pg/ml
Click to expand...

do you have base line numbers, as in what your numbers look like before you ran a cycle. whats normal for jack the tranni down the way most likely isn't whats normal for you.

the hormonal disruption is going to be personalized. so comparing your numbers to the general population (and really, how much of yourself do you compare against average guys?) isn't going to do much for you besides tell you how close you are to them.
 
AlexPowell said:
Sure thing buddy
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Keep up your quality posts
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I only read one, from ncbi, but, did you read and fully understand whats being said? I think if you did, you wouldn't of posted (at least) that one as a case for your argument.

the conclusion is both methods are acceptable treatment for post menopausal women with hormone receptor positive early breast cancer. It also states that using either method has side effects. also, if you really take a close look at the sides, it seems more women had sides from exemastane alone.

reading studies like this takes some education specifically in reading case studies to fully comprehend what's being said, and talked about.

and lastly, women and men are different.
 
and I wouldn't recommend anything other than letro ( in combination with other things) be used for gyno. but I'm sure most here know that im a fan of it.
 
Youur right , I thought that because my values were within in normal range it couldn't be high estrogen that is causing it. I had it done a year or two ago it was up in the 900s range I Beleive . I want to get back to that I was hoping my body was just going to slowly recover within the next year and get back up closer to 1000 again naturally . I also just broke up with my woman so going out getting hammered Isnt helping either . I'm gonna try tamox and arimidex, and driven sports activate. 20/20/10/10 for the tamox and how long should I do the arimidex ..? I'll save the letro as a last resort if this doesn't get rid of it or most of it , my buddy's taking research chem letro for his gyno says no bad sides really.
 
you have to ease into letro. I start with .25ml (.622mg or around that number) the research is great for this, because one can split up the dosages like this.

after about 3 days, I increase with another .25ml , following suit until I am at 1ml.

I don't know how to use the adex for gyno, I've never risked it or researched how to use it for that matter.
 
jbryand101b said:
I only read one, from ncbi, but, did you read and fully understand whats being said? I think if you did, you wouldn't of posted (at least) that one as a case for your argument.

the conclusion is both methods are acceptable treatment for post menopausal women with hormone receptor positive early breast cancer. It also states that using either method has side effects. also, if you really take a close look at the sides, it seems more women had sides from exemastane alone.

reading studies like this takes some education specifically in reading case studies to fully comprehend what's being said, and talked about.

and lastly, women and men are different.
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Sequential treatment was associated with a higher incidence of gynaecological symptoms, venous thrombosis and endometrial abnormalities than was exemestane alone. I can't adequately articulate the exact reasons why so I gave you the resources you need to read to accurately come to your own conclusion. However, running only adex was better than running only nolva. But somehow the nolva cancels the adex out when used together. This is a huge 5000 person clinical study done over years, not some bodybuilding hearsay lol.

So yeah, do not run them both. Just run adex or letro, its by far superior in every way, the study said even in side effects, adex was better (less sides than nolva)
 
Do you know what gynocological symptoms are?

And the study differentiates between the sides of each. The ai solo had a higher % of sides.

The sides though regardless, were insignificant enough that the researchers recommend either form of treatment.
 
It's detailed in the first study, the study you didn't read
 
jbryand101b said:
I only read one, from ncbi, but, did you read and fully understand whats being said? I think if you did, you wouldn't of posted (at least) that one as a case for your argument.

the conclusion is both methods are acceptable treatment for post menopausal women with hormone receptor positive early breast cancer. It also states that using either method has side effects. also, if you really take a close look at the sides, it seems more women had sides from exemastane alone.

reading studies like this takes some education specifically in reading case studies to fully comprehend what's being said, and talked about.

and lastly, women and men are different.
Click to expand...
I came to a similar conclusion myself...
AlexPowell said:
Sequential treatment was associated with a higher incidence of gynaecological symptoms, venous thrombosis and endometrial abnormalities than was exemestane alone. I can't adequately articulate the exact reasons why so I gave you the resources you need to read to accurately come to your own conclusion. However, running only adex was better than running only nolva. But somehow the nolva cancels the adex out when used together. This is a huge 5000 person clinical study done over years, not some bodybuilding hearsay lol.

So yeah, do not run them both. Just run adex or letro, its by far superior in every way, the study said even in side effects, adex was better (less sides than nolva)
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Your surmising that male and female bodies react in the same way which is a far cry from the truth, that study was in fact done on 5000 people which were all post menopausal women. Their bodies react very differently to that of let's say a 30 year old meathead who does steroids.
Re the nolva and Adex combo the reason that try don't work very synergistic is due to the fact that nolva reduces blood plasma levels of Adex this making it less effective.
 
Sure thing buddy. Let me know how that goes for you
 
They don't contradict each other
Sequential means one after the other, not combined.
The 3 studies demonstrate that adex or aromasin is preferred and not combined. If you want to ignore studies done in breast cancer and combine the drugs based on as far as I can tell, nothing, then be my guest. But for health reasons I really suggest against it. If this is a long term strategy then say goodbye to your bone density. The tamoxifen will completely remove the IGF-1 in your body, look it up. You really want to just use arimidex or aromasin, if it's bad then letro and never in combination. A SERM will block the effects of an AI anyway (first study) and if you're stopping the synthesis of estrogen then why you'd want to further block up the estrogen receptors is beyond me. Especially when as evidenced estrogen is already in range, serious health risks of very low estrogen.

But if people want to ignore this, whatever. Go ahead and take as many drugs as possible. I don't care enough to explain it further to a load of strangers. If it matters enough to do you'll actually go and read up on these drugs and get a real understanding of how they work in the body but I suspect most people will already have made up their mind and won't bother. I know that I double and triple checked this just now and yesterday to make sure I wasn't being an idiot
 
swoleman2010 said:
You think letro really will work regardless of my e2 levels I posted top of the thread?
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One thing to consider is the possibility of up regulation of the estrogen receptors during and following androgen use. This has been a hypothesis that Patrick Arnold and others have posted about many times. So while your estrogen levels maybe "normal" it might still be a concern. Also as jbry points out normal range for one might not be normal for you.
 
AlexPowell said:
They don't contradict each other
Sequential means one after the other, not combined.
The 3 studies demonstrate that adex or aromasin is preferred and not combined. If you want to ignore studies done in breast cancer and combine the drugs based on as far as I can tell, nothing, then be my guest. But for health reasons I really suggest against it. If this is a long term strategy then say goodbye to your bone density. The tamoxifen will completely remove the IGF-1 in your body, look it up. You really want to just use arimidex or aromasin, if it's bad then letro and never in combination. A SERM will block the effects of an AI anyway (first study) and if you're stopping the synthesis of estrogen then why you'd want to further block up the estrogen receptors is beyond me. Especially when as evidenced estrogen is already in range, serious health risks of very low estrogen.

But if people want to ignore this, whatever. Go ahead and take as many drugs as possible. I don't care enough to explain it further to a load of strangers. If it matters enough to do you'll actually go and read up on these drugs and get a real understanding of how they work in the body but I suspect most people will already have made up their mind and won't bother. I know that I double and triple checked this just now and yesterday to make sure I wasn't being an idiot
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The IGF-1 issue can be side stepped completely with the use of peptides like ghrp-2/cjc-1295. I'll see if I can find my bunnies igf-1 values after 6 weeks of the peptides while on 20/20/20/10/10/10 tamox citrate. The were higher then range for a 35 year old man... he is a crazy bunny..
 
harbonah said:
The IGF-1 issue can be side stepped completely with the use of peptides like ghrp-2/cjc-1295. I'll see if I can find my bunnies igf-1 values after 6 weeks of the peptides while on 20/20/20/10/10/10 tamox citrate. The were higher then range for a 35 year old man... he is a crazy bunny..
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Nice, I know it's used in acromegaly to take dudes down from 800+ to effectively zero. Probably takes more than 6 weeks.
 
AlexPowell said:
They don't contradict each other
Sequential means one after the other, not combined.
The 3 studies demonstrate that adex or aromasin is preferred and not combined. If you want to ignore studies done in breast cancer and combine the drugs based on as far as I can tell, nothing, then be my guest. But for health reasons I really suggest against it. If this is a long term strategy then say goodbye to your bone density. The tamoxifen will completely remove the IGF-1 in your body, look it up. You really want to just use arimidex or aromasin, if it's bad then letro and never in combination. A SERM will block the effects of an AI anyway (first study) and if you're stopping the synthesis of estrogen then why you'd want to further block up the estrogen receptors is beyond me. Especially when as evidenced estrogen is already in range, serious health risks of very low estrogen.

But if people want to ignore this, whatever. Go ahead and take as many drugs as possible. I don't care enough to explain it further to a load of strangers. If it matters enough to do you'll actually go and read up on these drugs and get a real understanding of how they work in the body but I suspect most people will already have made up their mind and won't bother. I know that I double and triple checked this just now and yesterday to make sure I wasn't being an idiot
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well, seeing as how gyno is caused from multiple hormonal disruptions, including igf-1, this might be one of the reasons it works so well on removing gyno.

serms don't block the effects of ai's. serms work via the estrogen receptor. ai's work via the aromatase enzyme. two different mechanisms.

serms bind with and still have minor interaction with the er.

there is nothing wrong with combining a serm and an ai. but one should be ran longer than the other.

I don't really care, cause im going to keep doing what I know works the best for me, but I do appreciate putting the idea out for others to consider.
 
Nolva is good for gyno for sure
Just never in combination for reasons I've already explained. Nolva will stop AIs from working, I do not understand the process well enough to summerise it but it is explained in the paper very well, which is why I linked it
 
Nolva and Asin are G2G:

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Cliffs:
"There were no serious toxicities noted when the two drugs were combined. There was no significant effect of exemestane on the area under the plasma concentration versus time curve of tamoxifen at steady state before and during exemestane treatment. There were no significant changes in the formation of primary tamoxifen metabolites"

"There is no pharmacokinetic interaction between tamoxifen and exemestane. No modification in the standard regimen of either drug seems to be indicated if they are used in combination. The combination of the two drugs was well tolerated during the 8-week evaluation period."
 
what does it say about gyno or breast cancer reduction?
 
AlexPowell said:
Sure thing buddy
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Keep up your quality posts
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1st study is comparing Anastrazole (not exemestane) with Tamox. In fact it did not show any results of combining the two or drug interactions.

2nd study is comparing Exemestane alone vs Tamox followed by Exemestane. No combined (parallel) study mentioned.

3rd study - is actually referring to the same study I posted a few post back. Results showed no interaction between Tamox and Exemestane.


At this point we can not make claims that Exemestane and Tamox should not be taken together. And/or that Tamox negates the effects of Exemestane.
 
daniel11 said:
1st study is comparing Anastrazole (not exemestane) with Tamox. In fact it did not show any results of combining the two or drug interactions.

2nd study is comparing Exemestane alone vs Tamox followed by Exemestane. No combined (parallel) study mentioned.

3rd study - is actually referring to the same study I posted a few post back. Results showed no interaction between Tamox and Exemestane.


At this point we can not make claims that Exemestane and Tamox should not be taken together. And/or that Tamox negates the effects of Exemestane.
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at least someone has the energy to research an post data, I've gotten lazy, an lost that spark of determination.
 
I cited it very early on
The paper adequately explains why you shouldn't combine them

But whatever, OPs blood work is within range. If you want to combine them to lower estrogen further then be my guest.
If one of the guys above is correct and he is hyper sensitive to estrogen, a SERM is probably the best plan of attack

Hopefully the OP can make his own educated decision
 
AlexPowell said:
I cited it very early on
The paper adequately explains why you shouldn't combine them
Click to expand...


Your citations, in fact, did not support your statement. I broke down all 3 of your citations in my post on page 2. Not one was in support of your claim.
I think the distinction here is sequential vs combination. Combination meaning at the same time. The citings suggest using one or the other rather than in sequence. no mention of combined dosing causing one compound or the other to be less effective. Maybe what you're saying is "never run Tamox and Exem in sequence, just use one or the other" ??


Furthermore - if estro sensitive, combating the estrogen would be a good place to start, by using an AI to reduce estrogen. Not all SERMS are used for reducing estrogen, in fact Clomid will increase estrogen: it stimulates LH release in the pituitary by inhibiting estro receptors in the hypothalamus leading to up-regulation of the hypothalamic–pituitary–gonadal axis (your brain thinks it has too little estrogen) which will increase testosterone production. Without an AI this will also increase estrogen (test converts to estro).


For OP: if E levels are normal the issue is likely in the breast tissue. Tamox or Ralox will selectively bind to the estro receptors in the breast tissue preventing estrogen from attaching and causing cell growth. No need to "kill" your estrogen.
 
Quite a debate, we'll I'll stick with the tamox then to be safe and was gonna hop on Driven Sports Activate natural test booster since my test levels could use a boost. Also have Pes Erase but my E levels should not get any higher from the Activate and while I'm taking tamox so i probably won't end up using it. I appreciate all the input guys. I'm going to get bloods in a few months off all supps again and see where I'm at and hopefully recovered.
 
So 5 days in tamox at 20mg/day , nipples tingly again at night. Hope that means it's working. It was never really visible so I can't go off that .
 
AlexPowell said:
I cited it very early on
The paper adequately explains why you shouldn't combine them

But whatever, OPs blood work is within range. If you want to combine them to lower estrogen further then be my guest.
If one of the guys above is correct and he is hyper sensitive to estrogen, a SERM is probably the best plan of attack

Hopefully the OP can make his own educated decision
Click to expand...

I am hypersensitive to estrogen I believe. I can use an AI and be dry and grainy as I can be as I am right now but still a lump that has enlarged under right nipple. Now I haven't gotten blood work but I'm telling you, if my estrogen is high then my body has a guy way of showing it! I only get relief when I in a serm and AI.
 
As a final take away statement lol science is science but no two bodies are entirely the same. So people I know of can run Trest high dose with only Formeron. No tingles in da nips at all. Personally I can't, yet I'll be dry and grainy. So to **** with all these studies! Find with blood work and obvious results what will control gyno or estrogen for each person. I tend to really hammer letro. Is that good? No because estrogen gets too low and you feel like shyt. And still can get a lump. So a combo is the best for me hands down
 
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