Gyno advice

Wobmarvel

Wobmarvel

Well-known member
Hi, first off if this is posted in the wrong group I will delete and repost.

So weird(ish) one this. I have recently been on a quest to boost libido and sense of well being. In the past couple of months I have ran what I thought were natural supplements in order to achieve this.

I ran optimize T along with sustain alpha and after the optimize ran out I switched to innovapharm test (which also contains arimistane, not sure if that is classed as natural).

As the innovapharm began to run out I decided to run a mild cycle consisting of 4 andro and S4, S4 I've used before but a different brand and liked the results. The 4 andro as a test base for mild suppression and also to compare the libido effects against natural supps.

The weekend I started cycle I had a slight tingling in left nipple and was so faint thought it could be mind playing tricks. About a week into the cycle it had got worse and a pea sized lump has developed. So at week 2 I pulled the plug on the cycle.

The 4 andro was never ran above 150 to 225mg per day so very low dose. The S4 I have binned as I'm not convinced it's real. In the past I've ran S4 with great results but had the vision sides by the end of week one at 50mg per day. This brand I got no vision sides although strength was going up. I upped to to 75mg per day before I stopped the cycle and still no vision sides so could have been something else.

Anyway the gyno symptoms have continued and the lump swelling has got worse. It's still probably not noticeable and very small under the skin so not crazy but it's there. At the moment I'm using arimistane now at 100mg per day to see what's up and I have started M-Test. I don't have nolva at present and have no intentions of running more hardcore cycles in future.

Is there a chance that coming off the optimize T and sustain alpha could cause an estrogen spike? I naturally have low test levels and although these are natural supplements if they work at a low level to boost natural test could coming off cause an imbalance with estrogen. Also could arimistane be causing more harm than good. I know it's OTC and not considered a true AI.

Should I just go cold turkey on everything and see if my body can regain homeostasis? Keep the m-test.

Obviously bloods is the go to here and I am trying to get a gp appointment. Gonna have to use the "I have a lump in my chest" to get seen though as doctor's here do not entertain any hormonal queries.

A lot of info here but any advise would be appreciated.
 
Most people like raloxifene for gyno, but I didn’t have much luck. Tamoxifen worked wonders for me though. I’d try one of them.

I doubt you’d get much rebound from either optimize T or Sustain. I guess it’s possible, but doesn’t seem very likely.

The more likely culprit is the cycle you ran. 4 andro is aromatizeable, so the extra estrogen could contribute. Plus you apparently don’t know what was in the other so that could be the main problem. But any time you mess with hormones, there’s a risk of gyno. I don’t know if there’s any actual evidence, but my guess is even if you take “only” a SARM, you can still throw off your hormone balance. Maybe more likely with SARMs. Since you suppress T production, you may have less androgen to offset any effects of estrogen. With SARMs being selective, they won’t help your boobies as much as some other gear might. Just a thought.

I don’t think arimistane would be doing anything harmful here, but probably won’t do a lot of help. A SERM is probably the way I would go. I haven’t had an issue in a very long time, but last time I had a lump, I got some MA exemestane and tamoxifen and it was knocked out in less than two weeks. I kept it up for over a month though, just tapered down over time.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
Most people like raloxifene for gyno, but I didn’t have much luck. Tamoxifen worked wonders for me though. I’d try one of them.

I doubt you’d get much rebound from either optimize T or Sustain. I guess it’s possible, but doesn’t seem very likely.

The more likely culprit is the cycle you ran. 4 andro is aromatizeable, so the extra estrogen could contribute. Plus you apparently don’t know what was in the other so that could be the main problem. But any time you mess with hormones, there’s a risk of gyno. I don’t know if there’s any actual evidence, but my guess is even if you take “only” a SARM, you can still throw off your hormone balance. Maybe more likely with SARMs. Since you suppress T production, you may have less androgen to offset any effects of estrogen. With SARMs being selective, they won’t help your boobies as much as some other gear might. Just a thought.

I don’t think arimistane would be doing anything harmful here, but probably won’t do a lot of help. A SERM is probably the way I would go. I haven’t had an issue in a very long time, but last time I had a lump, I got some MA exemestane and tamoxifen and it was knocked out in less than two weeks. I kept it up for over a month though, just tapered down over time.
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Yeah thanks. I used to always keep nolva and clomid on hand but have not ran crazy cycles for a while so don't keep them any more. I've ran a few sarm cycles over the years and never used a serm after, also never had gyno symptoms after either. I used to use nolva and or clomid for halodrol, epistane or superdrol cycles. Plus I had gyno symptoms when I used superdrol years ago. It went away during pct but it had established so this could be a flare up. I usually have low test. Possibly because of my oral only cycles with no test base over the years. I tested it once with a do at home test kit and my total test came back like 1 or 2 so I went to the doctor and they didn't give a ****. It could be the case that with test so low naturally the 4 andro and mystery supplement caused suppression and has completely tanked my test causing estrogen imbalances. Having said that I don't feel like ****. I just feel like I'm wearing a tight bra that's pushing on my chest which is quite distracting.
 
Wobmarvel said:
Yeah thanks. I used to always keep nolva and clomid on hand but have not ran crazy cycles for a while so don't keep them any more. I've ran a few sarm cycles over the years and never used a serm after, also never had gyno symptoms after either. I used to use nolva and or clomid for halodrol, epistane or superdrol cycles. Plus I had gyno symptoms when I used superdrol years ago. It went away during pct but it had established so this could be a flare up. I usually have low test. Possibly because of my oral only cycles with no test base over the years. I tested it once with a do at home test kit and my total test came back like 1 or 2 so I went to the doctor and they didn't give a ****. It could be the case that with test so low naturally the 4 andro and mystery supplement caused suppression and has completely tanked my test causing estrogen imbalances. Having said that I don't feel like ****. I just feel like I'm wearing a tight bra that's pushing on my chest which is quite distracting.
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For many people arimistane has little to no effect in estrogen. For example it lowers mine a very very small amount (as seen on blood work) but for others, blood work shows zero change, and others show a decent size change. So if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work.
what 4-andro product did you use? Is it regular 4-dhea or one of the longer esters mixed in?
For future reference, for light cycles like this, I would just use a epiandro as a “test base” because you don’t have to worry about estrogen conversion.
For a small lump, get some tamoxifen and I always keep letro in the closet in case things get out of hand.
 
SSJ4GOD said:
For many people arimistane has little to no effect in estrogen. For example it lowers mine a very very small amount (as seen on blood work) but for others, blood work shows zero change, and others show a decent size change. So if it doesn’t work for you, it doesn’t work.
what 4-andro product did you use? Is it regular 4-dhea or one of the longer esters mixed in?
For future reference, for light cycles like this, I would just use a epiandro as a “test base” because you don’t have to worry about estrogen conversion.
For a small lump, get some tamoxifen and I always keep letro in the closet in case things get out of hand.
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I just went with hi tech. It was their straight up andro without esters at 75mg per tab. Only took two per day for a week, then upped to 3 before I called stop on the cycle. I wasn't really taking it for a huge test boost. Most people say you need to run 330mg per day to get anything out of it. It was mainly to keep me at pretty standard levels if the S4 causes mild suppression. If I got a libido boost then it would have been a bonus. I'm wondering if I was getting suppressed anyway from the two compounds but at the same time wasnt getting much if any endogenous test from the 4 andro. My estrogen may not really have moved but my test would have lowered and so still causing an imbalance.
 
Wobmarvel said:
I just went with hi tech. It was their straight up andro without esters at 75mg per tab. Only took two per day for a week, then upped to 3 before I called stop on the cycle. I wasn't really taking it for a huge test boost. Most people say you need to run 330mg per day to get anything out of it. It was mainly to keep me at pretty standard levels if the S4 causes mild suppression. If I got a libido boost then it would have been a bonus. I'm wondering if I was getting suppressed anyway from the two compounds but at the same time wasnt getting much if any endogenous test from the 4 andro. My estrogen may not really have moved but my test would have lowered and so still causing an imbalance.
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I believe it’s the deca ester in that product which makes it stay in the system longer. But yeah definitely caused an imbalance and probably converted to estrogen a bit too. Tamoxifen it away
 
So assuming I can get bloods in the next couple of weeks or so in the meantime should I.

A: Go off everything and see if my body sorts itself out.

B: Stay on m-test to boost natural test. Keep taking arimistane.

C: Stay on m-test and stop arimistane. I have another theory that my body could be reacting someway to the arimistane. I was taking a test booster with this included for three weeks before tingling started. Seems a more realistic time frame than starting mystery sarm and 4 andro and getting tingles the same day.
 
I would say option A since I don’t see arimistane causing it but stop all of it.
Best option would be: before anything get an actual serm to reverse what you got
 
I'm thinking C. Part of me thinks it's crazy to stop anything that could act as an arimistane inhibitor but from reading up the jury is out as to whether it does anything at all.
 
SSJ4GOD said:
I would say option A since I don’t see arimistane causing it but stop all of it.
Best option would be: before anything get an actual serm to reverse what you got
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Yeah just been talking to a guy I get supplements from in town about it. He can get me tamoxifen but says I need to get bloods to find out if it's prolactin based or not otherwise can make issue worse.
 
Wobmarvel said:
Yeah just been talking to a guy I get supplements from in town about it. He can get me tamoxifen but says I need to get bloods to find out if it's prolactin based or not otherwise can make issue worse.
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I don’t think there’s any possibility it could make it worse. Yeah prolactin can exacerbate things, but taking care of the estrogen angle would do nothing but good for you.

You could throw in something “gentler” like SNS inhibit P to get prolactin down some. But if it was me, I would 100% be starting a SERM right away.

Mine has flared up super randomly before, so I almost always have a bottle of tamoxifen around. Just in case.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
I don’t think there’s any possibility it could make it worse. Yeah prolactin can exacerbate things, but taking care of the estrogen angle would do nothing but good for you.

You could throw in something “gentler” like SNS inhibit P to get prolactin down some. But if it was me, I would 100% be starting a SERM right away.

Mine has flared up super randomly before, so I almost always have a bottle of tamoxifen around. Just in case.
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Inhibit P is some pretty great stuff and my first line of defense for prolactin. If I’m doing some heavier tren doses then I go right to caber. But inhibit p is perfect!
 
I really appreciate the input guys. Regardless on timeframe of bloods I'm gonna get some tamoxifen even if it's just to keep in the cupboard. Like I said before I used to always have that and clomid on hand. Could be a week or so till I have it but still worth the punt. No harm in getting inhibit P either.

The thing that puzzles me the most here is that I had my 4 andro ready to go, along with S4 and arimistane. I planned to start on a Monday and stopped the innovapharm test the Friday before. Sustain alpha was done about a week before that and I definitely had sensitive itchy nipple stuff going on that weekend before I even started the cycle. The lump didn't appear until midweek but at that point I had only ran like 3 days of 150mg 4 andro and 50mg S4.

Even if the S4 was bunk and was spiked with something crazy I don't see how gyno could start after a few days.

When I had symptoms in the past it started on week three of superdrol at 20mg per day. If this was superdrol and crazy dosed I guess it could happen but I've had no bloat, I'm dieting so losing weight. It's quite perplexing
 
Wobmarvel said:
I really appreciate the input guys. Regardless on timeframe of bloods I'm gonna get some tamoxifen even if it's just to keep in the cupboard. Like I said before I used to always have that and clomid on hand. Could be a week or so till I have it but still worth the punt. No harm in getting inhibit P either.

The thing that puzzles me the most here is that I had my 4 andro ready to go, along with S4 and arimistane. I planned to start on a Monday and stopped the innovapharm test the Friday before. Sustain alpha was done about a week before that and I definitely had sensitive itchy nipple stuff going on that weekend before I even started the cycle. The lump didn't appear until midweek but at that point I had only ran like 3 days of 150mg 4 andro and 50mg S4.

Even if the S4 was bunk and was spiked with something crazy I don't see how gyno could start after a few days.

When I had symptoms in the past it started on week three of superdrol at 20mg per day. If this was superdrol and crazy dosed I guess it could happen but I've had no bloat, I'm dieting so losing weight. It's quite perplexing
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Once you get gyno symptoms once, they usually come back faster and faster if no control is in place
 
So update. I finally got test levels checked through the NHS. This is how long it takes. Test levels are just above 500ng/DL or 18.5 nmol (normal range is between 8 and 30). So I'm quite pleased with this to be honest cos I've thought I've had low test for a long time.

Still have a small lump which I recon is here to stay. I have a scan at the hospital tomorrow because they look into any lumps. Hoping it is gyno (never thought I would say that) and also hope NHS doctor's know what gyno is and don't just jump to wrong conclusions.

All this said NHS do not check estrogen levels in men, or prolactin, or shbg so if it is gyno I'm assuming there was some imbalance going on but this started way back in November and the sensitivity and tingling has pretty much completely stopped. Can be a bit painful if I press it occasionally .
 
For anyone reading this I just went for another consultation and based on the mammogram images it has been confirmed as gyno. It's a small elongated lump to the left of my left nipple. Can be a bit painful from time to time. I have been told it could go away within a couple of years, may stay the same or could get worse. I have been advised by the doctor to stear clear of any anabolic steroids (fair enough), beer (doesn't bother me I don't really drink) and... Wait for it... Whey protein supplements.
 
Rad83 said:
^ Whey Protein? I’d like to see the paperwork on that…I’ll wait 🤣
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I know right? Not gonna lie I didn't proceed to ask the doctor for the scientific papers to prove the claim. I've read about milk containing estrogen to a greater or lesser degree depending on the cow being pregnant at the time or not. And that the process for making whey protein creates a more concentrated environment so increases the amount. However I feel that this is just a basic cause and effect missunderstanding otherwise given the amount of guys that use whey supplements you would think gyno would be all over the place. Maybe it's a case of, if you get it then whey protein could make it worse but again I can't see any actual proof of this. Somewhere some doctor maybe has had many gyno patients that have caused it through hormone manipulation and anabolics but he has realised that they all use why protein so has put 2 and 2 together and got 5.
 
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