Good recomp

I dislike that idea.
 
tnubs said:
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned any form of fasting. Check out alternate day fasting. You can gain muscle and lose fat and see quick, visible results in the mirror. And u don't need to buy any supplements.
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I like that strategy I use it. It's fun.
 
how? it recieves a lot of criticism.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
how? it recieves a lot of criticism.
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you clearly havnt tried it. if you go into it freaking out about losing muscle then you will give up after a few days. there are some benefits of ADF for building muscle such as a reduction in proteolysis and increased insulin sensitivity. ive actually progressed faster in my lifts by using it. i will eat ~500 calories at the end of the day, tho. and you can pretty much eat anything you want on your eat days.

and can you please link me to whatever criticism your are referring to?
 
Ican't post links. just going to wp provides examples of criticism...
 
Versa-1 almost every beta-tester experienced recomp to some degree, without trying. The ones that were say a decrease in BF while adding strength & size.

IC release is a little more than 1 week away, Jan 8th. You can sign up for free at Invalid Link Removed.

Any questions, from anyone. Please feel free to PM me
 
wp?

I fast for 18 hours a day and have never had better results with any previous diets or supplements. People who can't get results are the same who can't control what they eat.
 
that sounds like an eating disorder.
 
bla55 said:
wp?

I fast for 18 hours a day and have never had better results with any previous diets or supplements. People who can't get results are the same who can't control what they eat.
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Same here. The leanest I've ever been is when I was IF'ing and it was a breeze compared to the six meal a day protocol.
 
tnubs said:
beats being fat and having to actually try to loose weight ;)
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then again, one can be fat and diet. unlike stupidity, which has no cure whatsoever. It does not sound healthy to starve oneself one day (600kcal IS starving) and go wild the other day... it just does not seem good.

and besides, even if I were to try this fasting business I still need a good appetite-curbing supp. such as Alphamine claims to be. I thought Compound20 would be a good idea but it recieved a very nasty review.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
then again, one can be fat and diet. unlike stupidity, which has no cure whatsoever. It does not sound healthy to starve oneself one day (600kcal IS starving) and go wild the other day... it just does not seem good.

and besides, even if I were to try this fasting business I still need a good appetite-curbing supp. such as Alphamine claims to be. I thought Compound20 would be a good idea but it recieved a very nasty review.
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Sorry to offend you, maybe I am stupid. I guess fasting really makes no sense. Eating small meals throughout the day is the best way to lose weight so you can raise your metabolism. Wait, no, thats been debunked. And eating small meals all day just means your body is constantly flooded with insulin, the most anabolic hormone in the body... to fat cells. Hmm, wait that sounds like it would give u type 2 diabetes. So lets look at the FACTS:

-Fasting doesnt lower metabolism till 72 hours into it, same period where the amino acids start to get leached from muscle
-there is actually a small raise in metabolism from fasting the first 24 hours probably due to the amount of lipolysis occuring
-the breakdown of protein from muscles decreases from fasting which not only helps preseve muscle, there is a rebound effect that actually helps build muscle when you do eat.
-it helps lower systemic IGF-1 levles from the liver, without messing with localized IGF-1 in the muscle
-the number of mitochondria in the muscles increases, boosting endurance and recovery
-theres been studies about how alternate day fasting can greatly reduce side effects of chemotherapy by strengthening the resistance of healthy cells
-increased insulin sensitivity, which can really help those who are obese and trying to lose weight and may be suffering from type 2 diabetes
-and there is no difference in nitrogen retention from 1 meal a day vs many meals
-insulin is anabolic to fat cells, the absence of insulin means growth hormone levels can go up much higher... and what is GH good for? LIPOLYSIS and PRESERVING MUSCLE. what is insulin good for? GAINING FAT and BLOCKING GROWTH HORMONE. yes, yes you need insulin to deliver nutrients to the muscle but theres a time and place for that

the list goes on and on. so despite it not sounding "healthy" it kicks regular dieting's ass with health benefits. you can go to ergo-log and type in "fasting" theres some good stuff on there as well as the leangains site for intermittant fasting (he posts a sh1t ton of studies) or Brad Pilon's blog (author of eat stop eat). all of them have a lot of studies posted and i probably missed a lot of the main points, so please... go educate yourself before calling me stupid, you clearly couldnt sense my sarcasm in my previous post

Edit to add: Can someone please define starving on a physiological level. I still dont know what that means but I do get a TONNNNN of questions in person how I stay so lean when I never touch cardio and how I've gotten many other people into such good shape in such a short time period. I got my gf down 40 pounds in 5 months just by moving her eating period to 4 hours at the end of the day. She trains fasted, takes no supplements, doesnt eat for 4 hours after she lifts and will probably hold a woman's powerlifting record sometime soon. Its funny how she got stronger by not eating... and shes not the only one to have these kind of results. But when people ask what the "secret" is they think we are starving ourselves and therefore must be a bad idea... but then they stay fat while we continually get leaner while eating whatever we want. Its just funny that the same people who complain are the ones who make NO progress and stay the same.
 
I love when people bash away without researching the facts.
 
oh fine. if you can tell me of a good protocol I'll do it once I get alphamine.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
oh fine. if you can tell me of a good protocol I'll do it once I get alphamine.
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leangains(intermittant fasting) or ADF. both work. depends on your goals and what you are willing to try. if you start slow, you really dont need alphamine. i use psyllium husk. but if you dont eat breakfast, you never have that initial insulin spike and you can go without food longer than u think.
 
I know myself. I need a kickstart in order to curb appetite.

what I want to do is to lose fat/preserve lean mass (I hope, since I will continue to take protein and BCAA after weight training no matter what -is that forbidden by one of those 2 protocols?), empasizing on lose fat.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
I know myself. I need a kickstart in order to curb appetite.

what I want to do is to lose fat/preserve lean mass (I hope, since I will continue to take protein and BCAA after weight training no matter what -is that forbidden by one of those 2 protocols?), empasizing on lose fat.
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Protocol just states for you to be fasted for ~16 hours a day, regardless of when, but the best alternative is to do so skipping breakfast and going from noon to 8 pm eating.

Do you workout in the morning? I do fasted cardio in the morning, take BCAAs prior and post, but my weight lifting is done in the afteroon, when I consume my biggest amount of food (dinner) right after.
 
bla55 said:
Protocol just states for you to be fasted for ~16 hours a day, regardless of when, but the best alternative is to do so skipping breakfast and going from noon to 8 pm eating.

Do you workout in the morning? I do fasted cardio in the morning, take BCAAs prior and post, but my weight lifting is done in the afteroon, when I consume my biggest amount of food (dinner) right after.
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BCAAs are converted to glucose and cause a small insulin spike. I'd personally keep them out of any fasted period. Even preworkout I'd stay totally fasted if following intermittent fasting. And I'd tighten the feeding period to 4 hours, it works a lot better. alternate day fasting has been far superior in my experience. You have two distinct periods: fat loss and muscle gain so both become much more efficient. I love fasted training but eating both before and after training allows for a more productive anabolic period. Alternate day fasting gets my vote every time but you only get 7 training days every 2 weeks which some people have a problem with (my gf lifts 6 days a week)
 
tnubs said:
BCAAs are converted to glucose and cause a small insulin spike. I'd personally keep them out of any fasted period. Even preworkout I'd stay totally fasted if following intermittent fasting. And I'd tighten the feeding period to 4 hours, it works a lot better. alternate day fasting has been far superior in my experience. You have two distinct periods: fat loss and muscle gain so both become much more efficient. I love fasted training but eating both before and after training allows for a more productive anabolic period. Alternate day fasting gets my vote every time but you only get 7 training days every 2 weeks which some people have a problem with (my gf lifts 6 days a week)
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I for some reason had the BCAAs I believe because of the Lean Gains book if not mistaken? I recall - again, not certain but I thought it was from the book itself - bcaa and yohimbine being the two ones that were recommended by him, the BCAA being for muscle conservation purposes if not mistaken while doing fasted cardio.

I do have a smaller eating window, just mentioning the "low side" as it was mentioned "at least" 16 hours. I eat from 1 - 7 personally, that is due a lot to my work / workout schedule pretty much.

I should probably brush up and read the book once again, I'm sure it wouldn't hurt.
 
He mentions BCAA's pre workout on his site. I honestly couldnt tell a difference using them vs not using them. I use them during my workouts on ADF since im eating before and after, and not trying to stay fasted. Theres been a lot of debate whether or not BCAA's technically break the fast. I side with the ones who believe it does break the fast, if its going to be turned to glucose/sugar in the blood id rather take 5g of carbs and save the money... or just not take anything at all. You wont burn muscle by not using BCAA's, your body will break down fat for your muscles to burn which is very anti catabolic in itself. But if it makes you feel better, lot of people still make good progress using BCAA's during intermittent fasting and the leangains guy likes him and hes shredded as fuhhhhhk. Its more of a preference thing.

And relating to the original question in this thread, check this out:
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I mean BCAA-protein only POST workout, not pre-workout, sorry.
and I need a more detailed/not so restrictive fasting protocol, because while I do plan to train around 3 times per week (but with a different protocol, a A-B-A-B one) on other days I also expect sometimes to go running.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
I mean BCAA-protein only POST workout, not pre-workout, sorry.
and I need a more detailed/not so restrictive fasting protocol, because while I do plan to train around 3 times per week (but with a different protocol, a A-B-A-B one) on other days I also expect sometimes to go running.
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I would try the 16/8 protocol first. Like the guys have mentioned its the easiest to implement and you should see results as long as your in a defecit. At the 16 hour mark I would have a protein shake and some nuts, so fairly light and then have a fairly large meal about 18 - 20 hours in then train and then my main meal post workout. This means I'm eating most of my cals around my workout and keeping my hunger at bay.

Just try it. You'll be surprised how easy it is to adhere to it. Another point worth mentioning is that as one becomes leaner, eating breakfast seems makes people hungrier mid morning than not having breakfast. Something to do with the high levels of cortisol in the morning augmenting the release of insulin.
 
thanks but I need more details about this. all of them in fact. this seems more complicated than I thought.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
thanks but I need more details about this. all of them in fact. this seems more complicated than I thought.
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Or a PDF called "The Leangains Approach Final", not horribly hard to find.
 
the one that begins with "My name is Martin Berkhan, nutritional counselor, fitness magazine writer and creator of Leangains.Leangains is a unique approach to strength training and nutrition. The diet involves intermittentfasting and strength training in order to reduce fat mass and increase muscle mass. This is performedby switching between phases of overfeeding and underfeeding, as well as carefully manipulating themacronutrient ratio of the diet." ? that's only 14 pages!
 
actually. I'd like someone to list the various protocols of fasting, what are they used for and for how long they can be mantained, thanks.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
the one that begins with "My name is Martin Berkhan, nutritional counselor, fitness magazine writer and creator of Leangains.Leangains is a unique approach to strength training and nutrition. The diet involves intermittentfasting and strength training in order to reduce fat mass and increase muscle mass. This is performedby switching between phases of overfeeding and underfeeding, as well as carefully manipulating themacronutrient ratio of the diet." ? that's only 14 pages!
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Yeah, it's the cliff notes version of it but will have all the info you really need.

Another option is the book Eat, stop, eat.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
actually. I'd like someone to list the various protocols of fasting, what are they used for and for how long they can be mantained, thanks.
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Well... That's why there are books for it, way too many to summarize with enough details.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
thanks but I need more details about this. all of them in fact. this seems more complicated than I thought.
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Geez...everyone here has provided more than enough information. It's as simple or as complicated as you want to make. Don't eat for 16 hours followed by eating within an eight hour window whilst in cal defecit. Simples ;-)
 
Dark_Ansem said:
actually. I'd like someone to list the various protocols of fasting, what are they used for and for how long they can be mantained, thanks.
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there are 3 versions:

alternate day fasting(ADF): 24 hours eating/24 hour fast repeat
eat stop eat: one or two 24 hour fasts per week on nonconsecutive days (basically a less aggressive alternate day fast)
intermittent fasting(IF): train fasted, have your biggest meal post workout and you have an eating window 4-8 hours long.

what to eat during a fast? stimulants, water, fiber, anything with no calories. you can toss in some vegetables when you first start to make it easier, just dont cook them with butter or something, that defeats the point of fasting.

what are they used for? all of them are used for burning fat. you can toss in a day or two of fasting per week on a bulk and turn it into a lean bulk. how long can they be used for? forever, the secret is that as long as your still hitting decent macros in IF you can maintain your metabolism. with ADF, you reset your metabolism every other day when you eat so your metabolism never slows. you can get down to pretty low bodyfat by using these methods, with ADF fat loss of 2lbs per week is very much doable without losing muscle. your weight will zig zag tho from a lack of carbs on fast day and you will lose a lot of water weight. if you dont eat enough carbs on your eat day you may start to look flat after some time, but all you have to do is skip a fasting day (eat 3 days in a row) and you get a glycogen supercompensation effect so u look even bigger.
 
tnubs said:
BCAAs are converted to glucose and cause a small insulin spike. I'd personally keep them out of any fasted period. Even preworkout I'd stay totally fasted if following intermittent fasting. And I'd tighten the feeding period to 4 hours, it works a lot better. alternate day fasting has been far superior in my experience. You have two distinct periods: fat loss and muscle gain so both become much more efficient. I love fasted training but eating both before and after training allows for a more productive anabolic period. Alternate day fasting gets my vote every time but you only get 7 training days every 2 weeks which some people have a problem with (my gf lifts 6 days a week)
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Leucine and lysine are ketogenic not glucogenic

Leucine only stimulates insulin response in presence of carbohydrate
 
So would you guys recommend to utilize BCAAs for fasted cardio or not? Confused :/
 
mm... I think Intermittent fasting mught be the thing for me. however, I train in the evening, whether it's weights or cardio. any suggestions?
 
I fast but don't enjoy training fasted, and I also train in the evening. I usually sandwich two big meals around my workout (see what I did there?) and fast the rest of the day. I want to emphasize how NOT strict I am on protocol, though. Martin has some meal protocols for training during the eating period on the website.
 
It is recommended to train in the evening for IF.
 
good. so I can train during the hours of non-fasting. what am I supposed to eat?
 
Dark_Ansem said:
mm... I think Intermittent fasting mught be the thing for me. however, I train in the evening, whether it's weights or cardio. any suggestions?
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Light small meals 200-300 cals (2of them leading up to workout) then 1 huge meal pre bed
 
EBF Inc said:
Light small meals 200-300 cals (2of them leading up to workout) then 1 huge meal pre bed
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in 8 hours? what about lunch, considering that in order to have the post-workout meal I'll have to start at, like, 14?
 
Dark_Ansem said:
in 8 hours? what about lunch, considering that in order to have the post-workout meal I'll have to start at, like, 14?
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No offense man, but you found a 14 page book, that has all the information you are asking, why not just read it?
 
I'd rather ask someone who has done it than read an informative" pamphlet that looks like scam.
 
EBF Inc said:
Leucine and lysine are ketogenic not glucogenic

Leucine only stimulates insulin response in presence of carbohydrate
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Hmm, maybe I was mistaken. I've been looking around google, found the study showing a response with carbs. Really, just about all of the studies are in the presence of carbs except this one. Its from 1972, so its not the most recent study but idk lol...

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from the abstract, I cant see the whole thing: "When tested in a glucose-free medium, L-leucine stimulated insulin release over a wide concentration range with maximum effect at about 20 mM. The stimulation of insulin release was additive to that elicited by 10 mM glucose."


 
Dark_Ansem said:
I'd rather ask someone who has done it than read an informative" pamphlet that looks like scam.
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if you go to the leangains site, he explains a lot of it and he has nothing to gain by you trying his method so i dont understand how it would be a scam? if it was, i dont think he would post so many studies. on his fb fan page he posts up new studies all the time, hes a good guy to look at to gain a grasp of fasting and all the scientific modalities behind it.
 
Dark_Ansem said:
I'd rather ask someone who has done it than read an informative" pamphlet that looks like scam.
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It is literally the book and the approach, from the man that "invented" this approach, with as much specific information possible, the same guide that was used by most of people who follow his diet to create their meal plans. How is that not going to be informative and is a scam? Seriously. You would rather listen to 2nd, 3rd tier peers than the CREATOR of the diet plan? Really?
 
peers that got it to work? yes
 
That's like asking purple belts who have won a couple of street brawls instead of Reylson Gracie for jiu jitsu lessons.
 
whatever, I think I will open a new thread about fasting/eating. I wonder what supps would help me with fasting.
 
Be my guest, I doubt there will be many out there just looking to spoon feed you with a ready to go meal plan and supplementation plan when you are clearly just not wanting to do the research on your own.

But like I said, best of luck to ya.
 
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