GH with insulin=good, yet administer GH when levels are low???

[justeat]

I’ve read a ton and just have one question that is preventing me from tying all my info up into a well understood and useable form.

It’s recommended to take your Gh shot a good deal of time before and after a meal, obviously so that your blood sugar levels are relatively low. Based on my understanding this would mean natural insulin levels are pretty low too? Correct? (Assuming insulin levels raise and fall similar to blood sugar, but the insulin curve lags a bit behind blood sugar)

if that is correct, and we want to take GH when blood sugar and insulin are low, then why is it also suggested to take your insulin with or shortly after a GH shot???? This is the one thing I’m not putting together here!

I understand the purpose of taking insulin after growth, paired with a meal, to drive those nutrients into the muscles, since the growth inhibits insulin response, adding insulin will improve that. Is this really the reason why insulin is added right after gh? Simply to aid your bodies natural insulin production following Gh? What would be so bad about taking GH around a meal then? Assuming the meal will raise your blood sugar levels…. Do we avoid this because the lack of insulin response (bc of GH) prevents us from processing those nutrients correctly? The insulin is added simply to make up for the resistance that builds from GH use?

Anyone that has a good handle on this, and understands what I’m asking here please chime in!!!

 

[Smont]

I'm not gonna get too deep into it because if you were to talk to 10ppl on how they administer GH you might get 10 answers and they all probably work, because at the end of the day the most important part of GH is just taking it.

With or without food, morning, night, split up through the day, it's only makes a small difference. Don't over complicate it.

There's lots of good bodybuilding coaches that have there guys take it pre workout, some coaches tell there guys post workout, some say before bed is best for growth, some say morning is best for fat loss. There's 300 ways to skin this cat, the only important thing is that you take it.

I believe Dorian Yates said he only took it post workout 3-4x week when he used it. 6iu post workout and I would have to assume a meal was ate right after seeing it's post workout.


Here's a couple more important things about GH, and I apologize if I'm wondering too far away from your question.

1. Get your dose in, when you take it is splitting hairs in the bigger scheme of things, yes you can optimize things with timing but don't go nutz

2. Pay attention to your blood glucose, GH can jack up insulin sensitivity, this is why combining the 2 works so good, it takes a little stress off the body. Also insulin combined with GH jacks up igf levels even higher. Also metformin will help with the insulin sensitivity a lot on GH. And even tho there's some studies on metformin slowing down muscle growth, it applies to natural ppl. Not bodybuilders and athletes on steroids, GH and insulin.

3. T4 will diminish on GH, supplementing with around 100-200mcg of t4 will make your GH work better

 

[justeat]

I'm not gonna get too deep into it because if you were to talk to 10ppl on how they administer GH you might get 10 answers and they all probably work, because at the end of the day the most important part of GH is just taking it.

With or without food, morning, night, split up through the day, it's only makes a small difference. Don't over complicate it.

There's lots of good bodybuilding coaches that have there guys take it pre workout, some coaches tell there guys post workout, some say before bed is best for growth, some say morning is best for fat loss. There's 300 ways to skin this cat, the only important thing is that you take it.

I believe Dorian Yates said he only took it post workout 3-4x week when he used it. 6iu post workout and I would have to assume a meal was ate right after seeing it's post workout.


Here's a couple more important things about GH, and I apologize if I'm wondering too far away from your question.

1. Get your dose in, when you take it is splitting hairs in the bigger scheme of things, yes you can optimize things with timing but don't go nutz

2. Pay attention to your blood glucose, GH can jack up insulin sensitivity, this is why combining the 2 works so good, it takes a little stress off the body. Also insulin combined with GH jacks up igf levels even higher. Also metformin will help with the insulin sensitivity a lot on GH. And even tho there's some studies on metformin slowing down muscle growth, it applies to natural ppl. Not bodybuilders and athletes on steroids, GH and insulin.

3. T4 will diminish on GH, supplementing with around 100-200mcg of t4 will make your GH work better

thank you. So the purpose for taking insulin with it is to make up for what’s “not being accomplished” in terms of nutrient shuttling since the gh is lowering the insulin response. We add in insulin to make up for this. My main issue is why we’re told it’s best to take on an empty stomach (when insulin is probably low), but then most ppl take growth and insulin together? It seems opposite. Unless we’re told to take growth (alone) on an empty stomach simply because any blood sugar spikes around it will not be dealt with as efficiently? Since growth has increased our insulin sensitivity? Taking insulin remedies this?

Separate question- are there any downsides to taking insulin in terms of a negative feedback loop? Does injecting it exogenously shut down our natural production? I havnt heard of this, and it seems when gh is present that it only serves to supplement our natural levels and give the pancreas a break. This sounds great, but my natural first though would be anytime we supplement a metabolic chemical exogenously there is usually some sort of shutdown that would occur since we’re interjecting into our bodies natural ability to regulate blood sugar and insulin production/response.

im having a hard time getting my thoughts and questions out in a clear way, are these questions making sense? To me, they seem like really obvious things to figure out here…

 

[BCseacow83]

What are you PRIMARILY attempting to accomplish with your GH and insulin use. IMO this would help determine the best way to use such.

 

[Smont]

thank you. So the purpose for taking insulin with it is to make up for what’s “not being accomplished” in terms of nutrient shuttling since the gh is lowering the insulin response. We add in insulin to make up for this. My main issue is why we’re told it’s best to take on an empty stomach (when insulin is probably low), but then most ppl take growth and insulin together? It seems opposite. Unless we’re told to take growth (alone) on an empty stomach simply because any blood sugar spikes around it will not be dealt with as efficiently? Since growth has increased our insulin sensitivity? Taking insulin remedies this?

Separate question- are there any downsides to taking insulin in terms of a negative feedback loop? Does injecting it exogenously shut down our natural production? I havnt heard of this, and it seems when gh is present that it only serves to supplement our natural levels and give the pancreas a break. This sounds great, but my natural first though would be anytime we supplement a metabolic chemical exogenously there is usually some sort of shutdown that would occur since we’re interjecting into our bodies natural ability to regulate blood sugar and insulin production/response.

im having a hard time getting my thoughts and questions out in a clear way, are these questions making sense? To me, they seem like really obvious things to figure out here…

But we're not told it's best to take GH on a empty stomach. That's what ppl use to think. Now if fat loss is your number 1 goal, empty stomach first thing in the morning makes sense. But if your trying to grow you want GH, insulin, amino acids/protein and lots of carbs. All of those things are creating the environment for growth. Your getting a massive amount of igf 1 conversion, your shuttling nutrients directly into the muscle and your putting the breaks on catabolism.

I'm definitely not a expert on the subject and il be honest, I don't have much first hand personal experience on this 1. But I've got more then a few friends and acquaintances that use these things on themselves and there clients and the fastest way to build muscle is the big 3. Steroids, GH, slin and you put it all together by eating around the clock. When your talking about 250+lb bodybuilders and athletes, there's only 1 time of day that there fasted and that's as soon as they wake up. These guys eat around the clock. I've seen some of these guys bring big ass family size Tupperware containers of rice to the gym with them. Eat a bunch of carbs, go into the bathroom to do there GH/slin, sip on eaa's and carbs all workout and sit down and eat there chicken and rice on the recumbent bike before leaving the gym. It's actually pretty rediculous lol.

My point is I think you have a jumble of information on the topic as do many of us, myself included. But it's not so black and white.

Carbs stop natural GH output, but they do not stop the GH your injecting into yourself.

Igf 1 is more important then hgh levels.

Carbs and protein raise igf, insulin raises igf and GH raises igf.

Igf is more important then GH for building muscle, by a long shot.

 

[justeat]

But we're not told it's best to take GH on a empty stomach. That's what ppl use to think. Now if fat loss is your number 1 goal, empty stomach first thing in the morning makes sense. But if your trying to grow you want GH, insulin, amino acids/protein and lots of carbs. All of those things are creating the environment for growth. Your getting a massive amount of igf 1 conversion, your shuttling nutrients directly into the muscle and your putting the breaks on catabolism.

I'm definitely not a expert on the subject and il be honest, I don't have much first hand personal experience on this 1. But I've got more then a few friends and acquaintances that use these things on themselves and there clients and the fastest way to build muscle is the big 3. Steroids, GH, slin and you put it all together by eating around the clock. When your talking about 250+lb bodybuilders and athletes, there's only 1 time of day that there fasted and that's as soon as they wake up. These guys eat around the clock. I've seen some of these guys bring big ass family size Tupperware containers of rice to the gym with them. Eat a bunch of carbs, go into the bathroom to do there GH/slin, sip on eaa's and carbs all workout and sit down and eat there chicken and rice on the recumbent bike before leaving the gym. It's actually pretty rediculous lol.

My point is I think you have a jumble of information on the topic as do many of us, myself included. But it's not so black and white.

Carbs stop natural GH output, but they do not stop the GH your injecting into yourself.

Igf 1 is more important then hgh levels.

Carbs and protein raise igf, insulin raises igf and GH raises igf.

Igf is more important then GH for building muscle, by a long shot.

ok that makes a lot more sense. So the idea of gh on an empty stomach is really just for a fat loss objective. So if I were doing my gh at night before bed- which utlimately is after 2 big meals, it’s not “getting canceled out” or anything. It’s just more so having an anabolic effect rather than a fat loss effect. I’m ok with this obv, although my initial reason for using just 2iu growth was for added fat loss. This dose has worked for me for the past, and is working now.
Perhaps I’ll switch it to first thing am to make the fat loss more efficient.

so as long as less fat loss is ok with us, there’s nothing “bad” happening from me taking gh on a pretty full stomach. Bad as in, im not wasting it? Just possible insulin resistence

 

[Smont]

ok that makes a lot more sense. So the idea of gh on an empty stomach is really just for a fat loss objective. So if I were doing my gh at night before bed- which utlimately is after 2 big meals, it’s not “getting canceled out” or anything. It’s just more so having an anabolic effect rather than a fat loss effect. I’m ok with this obv, although my initial reason for using just 2iu growth was for added fat loss. This dose has worked for me for the past, and is working now.
Perhaps I’ll switch it to first thing am to make the fat loss more efficient.

so as long as less fat loss is ok with us, there’s nothing “bad” happening from me taking gh on a pretty full stomach. Bad as in, im not wasting it? Just possible insulin resistence

Soooooo, if your natural, and you don't sleep, or go out drinking all night or are over training, your testosterone levels drop. If your on testosterone they stay elevated.

When you eat carbs and what not you put the breaks on natural GH output, but when your injecting GH your it's different.

There's too much to explain and honestly, I don't believe a expert on GH use exists. You can find studies that back up everything I said and you can find studies that contradict everything I said.

At the end of the day though you're overthinking the crap out of this and like I said originally the most important part is making sure you get your daily dose in regardless of when you take it

 

[justeat]

Soooooo, if your natural, and you don't sleep, or go out drinking all night or are over training, your testosterone levels drop. If your on testosterone they stay elevated.

When you eat carbs and what not you put the breaks on natural GH output, but when your injecting GH your it's different.

There's too much to explain and honestly, I don't believe a expert on GH use exists. You can find studies that back up everything I said and you can find studies that contradict everything I said.

At the end of the day though you're overthinking the crap out of this and like I said originally the most important part is making sure you get your daily dose in regardless of when you take it

Yep, always going too deep thought wise. For the most part though you’ve ironed out the things I was wondering about.

ultimately I’m going to switch from bedtime dosing to post workout dosing since other then wake up that’s the only time I’m close to fasted. Plus I do a 2 mile walk post workout and then take another 45 mins to make dinner.
I’m going to get a blood glucose monitor and check what my levels are, if my faster blood sugar is high I may add in a light dose of slin. Just at the initial research level currently though. I’ve always felt slin is where I Draw the line but it seems it has its place to actually improve health when the situation presents itself

 

[Smont]

Insulin used properly is extremely safe, definitely safer then any and every steroid "when used properly is the key"

Used like a dumbass you can die. But I will say this, well I am not advocating insulin use and I am not directing anyone on how to use it because I don't even really mess with it myself, I've toyed around with some that a buddy gave me because he's a diabetic, but I've literally just took it ate a bunch of cards called it a wrap just to see what would happen.

But there's been times where people have intentionally tried to kill themselves by injecting 100 IU of insulin and they didn't die their body sorted it out for them. I'm not saying that makes it safe I'm just saying the risks are greatly exaggerated but the risk is definitely there and if you screw up you can die

 

[justeat]

Insulin used properly is extremely safe, definitely safer then any and every steroid "when used properly is the key"

Used like a dumbass you can die. But I will say this, well I am not advocating insulin use and I am not directing anyone on how to use it because I don't even really mess with it myself, I've toyed around with some that a buddy gave me because he's a diabetic, but I've literally just took it ate a bunch of cards called it a wrap just to see what would happen.

But there's been times where people have intentionally tried to kill themselves by injecting 100 IU of insulin and they didn't die their body sorted it out for them. I'm not saying that makes it safe I'm just saying the risks are greatly exaggerated but the risk is definitely there and if you screw up you can die

Cool. Thanks again man. I figured the danger arises when ppl mess up, at low doses it can’t be too bad as long as you pay halfway attention to your body.

 

[Smont]

Cool. Thanks again man. I figured the danger arises when ppl mess up, at low doses it can’t be too bad as long as you pay halfway attention to your body.

Vigorous Steve has a insulin e book, I'd suggest taking a look at that or something similar. Get a good solid understanding and always start low and have easy to eat/drink carbs close by

 

[Mikereyn513]

To answer your other question insulin doesn't have a negative feedback loop. Was thinking of maybe trying some early next year so I've been researching now. Big Paul from anabolic bodybuilding specifically talked about that because I was curious myself. I'm thinking of just starting with Lantus and metformin with my GH and go from there

 

[MadStax]

My regimen looks like this:

8:00 Breakfast
8:30 Lantus 10iu, Aspart 7iu (pin trt or blast)
10:00 gym
12:00 home Aspart 7iu GH 3iu
12:30 lunch
22:00 last meal, Lantus 15iu GH 3iu

I only fast for ten hours when using GH. I don't recommend doing the 16/8 when using GH. The more you can eat the better imo. I don't think it matters when you eat or when you pin. As @Smont said it's more important to just get everything into your body. Food is the hard part, so don't overly limit yourself on when/what you can eat.

 

[saderboy80]

Okay so say he is taking hgh, igf-1 and insulin. Would you take all 3 at once post workout? That would give you one massive spike of igf-1.

Or do you take igf-1 pre-workout (or some other time of day)? And get 2 spikes of igf-1.

And then take the gh and slin as discussed in the previous posts.

 

[MadStax]

Okay so say he is taking hgh, igf-1 and insulin. Would you take all 3 at once post workout? That would give you one massive spike of igf-1.

Or do you take igf-1 pre-workout (or some other time of day)? And get 2 spikes of igf-1.

And then take the gh and slin as discussed in the previous posts.

Personally, when I was using LR3 I was using it immediately pre-workout, but it doesn't matter that much. If you're using DES I'd split it between pre and post like short acting insulin.

 

[justeat]

To answer your other question insulin doesn't have a negative feedback loop. Was thinking of maybe trying some early next year so I've been researching now. Big Paul from anabolic bodybuilding specifically talked about that because I was curious myself. I'm thinking of just starting with Lantus and metformin with my GH and go from there

my thoughts exactly, thanks for adding that in. I’ve been kind of split between two ways of going about it-1) doing lantus once in am, conservative dose of maybe 10-15iu (depending on how my blood sugar looks as I start and continue to monitor it). Or 2) use a fast acting insulin in small doses after heavy carb meals, maybe 2 times per day. Once being post workout. A protocol I saw that I liked was taking growth post workout, and then insulin with the big meal about an hour afterwards. The thinking was that the growth would have let on a spike in igf1 by meal time and then the insulin would do its thing lagging after the growth. Idk.

I know short acting has more inherent dangers but at the same time if I use a dose that’s dialed in to what my normal response in blood sugar is, following a meal, I figure I could get more out of it, and not be messing with my natural production much over the day when it’s less needed. On the other hand, upon waking I’m pretty much always eating, so the lantus slowly helping throughout the day also makes sense.

On a slightly different note- what do you guys think of consistency of GH timing? I was always doing it before bed, but that’s also always on a full stomach. So lately I’ve started taking it post workout about an hour before my post meal. So workout days I’m taking it around 9pm on an empty stomach. On test days I’m still doing it around 2am before bed. (I work nights). Probably doesn’t make a huge different as others have said, but just wondering if there’s any knowledge out there on consistency of timing.

 

[justeat]

New question here:

so I’ve finally started getting the full idea on my original question- that carbs are avoided around gh shots so as to not interfere with fat loss. Carbs present (along with insulin) doesn’t stop gh from working, rather blunts the fat loss effects (bc the sugars aren’t carried to muscles as glycogen as efficiently)- but does really help with the anabolic effects of gh/insulin.

Now- could one simply eat a solid meal post GH to trigger a natural insulin response and reap similiar benefits compared to eating AND injecting insulin? My thought is yes, however the problem arises if the meal/carbs are too high, thus causing a HYPERglycemic effect. In which case we circle back to the original purpose for taking insulin- to deal with excess blood sugar post gh shot.

so eating an appropriate sized meal/carb intake post GH shot still produce that insulin-anabolic affect? Could I do this to reap more anabolism from my growth, if I wanted that opposed to the fat loss effects…?

 

[MadStax]

You could use Metformin or a GDA to help keep blood sugar low if you don't want to use insulin. Eating will still cause blood sugar to spike though, no matter what you do. Typically, for weight loss, it is best to use GH in the morning, fasted. For weight gain it is best to use it before bed with insulin and a meal.

 

[justeat]

You could use Metformin or a GDA to help keep blood sugar low if you don't want to use insulin. Eating will still cause blood sugar to spike though, no matter what you do. Typically, for weight loss, it is best to use GH in the morning, fasted. For weight gain it is best to use it before bed with insulin and a meal.

Yes, but to go off your last sentence… eating before bed with a meal-with insulin-. My question is would the the natural insulin response from that meal cause a similiar anabolic affect as eating that same meal with injected insulin? Obviously not to the same degree, and assuming my carb intake is high enough to drive a good natural insulin response, but not too high whereas I would need exogenous insulin to process it.

 

[justeat]

Aka is the extra injected insulin in this scenario only necessary when carb intake is extra high? Or would natural insulin from the meal still have that anabolic affect providing carb intake isn’t through the roof (say 75-100g carb With post workout/pre bed meal.

 

[MadStax]

Aka is the extra injected insulin in this scenario only necessary when carb intake is extra high? Or would natural insulin from the meal still have that anabolic affect providing carb intake isn’t through the roof (say 75-100g carb With post workout/pre bed meal.

With long acting insulin it's more about keeping blood sugar lower and muscles fuller. This helps drive recovery and growth while you sleep. The natural response would simply be a spike, followed by an extended period of high blood sugar, which is what you don't want. This will still cause weight gain, but more of the calories will be stored as fat, rather than shuttled to and used by the muscles.

 

[justeat]

With long acting insulin it's more about keeping blood sugar lower and muscles fuller. This helps drive recovery and growth while you sleep. The natural response would simply be a spike, followed by an extended period of high blood sugar, which is what you don't want. This will still cause weight gain, but more of the calories will be stored as fat, rather than shuttled to and used by the muscles.

Ok, makes sense. Thanks. And this is where finding the proper dose of slin comes into play, as I understand too much insulin will not only make you hypo but can also cause fat gain as well? The appropriate dose will max out glycogen stores in muscles.

I’m thinking of using a fast acting slin in very conservative doses twice a day- once after my first big meal of the day, and again post workout/gh, along with my dinner (12 hours apart). I probably take in about 120 g carbs during these two meals but instead of doing the prescribed “10-12iu” I was thinking of just doing like 5iu or so, more so to just supplement my natural response and also keep it relatively risk free.

 

[MadStax]

If you're using a fast acting insulin, it's not going to be very effective before bed. It's best taken around workout time when you can use all of that glucose to go hard. Taking a dose with a large meal can be good for filling muscles pre-workout and the post injection with GH will aide healing/replenishment. It sounds like a great plan to me!

 

[justeat]

If you're using a fast acting insulin, it's not going to be very effective before bed. It's best taken around workout time when you can use all of that glucose to go hard. Taking a dose with a large meal can be good for filling muscles pre-workout and the post injection with GH will aide healing/replenishment. It sounds like a great plan to me!

Thanks. The evening slin shot isn’t planned so much to work overnight as it is to be post workout and pwo meal- since I work out at night.

Question though- if blood sugar usually drops to resting rate at about 2 hours post meal, and rapid insulin lasts about 2 hours, wouldn’t that be ok for last meal/pre bed? Using a longer insulin would keep levels elevated all night while there’s no eating or increase in blood sugar? Just trying to understand this best I can…

 

[MadStax]

Thanks. The evening slin shot isn’t planned so much to work overnight as it is to be post workout and pwo meal- since I work out at night.

Question though- if blood sugar usually drops to resting rate at about 2 hours post meal, and rapid insulin lasts about 2 hours, wouldn’t that be ok for last meal/pre bed? Using a longer insulin would keep levels elevated all night while there’s no eating or increase in blood sugar? Just trying to understand this best I can…

Novolin R lasts about 8 hours, but the peak is from 2-6 hours after you pin. I usually try to do the dose 1.5-2 hours before I eat. Lantus lasts about 24 hours and keeps levels fairly constant. It allows your body to respond naturally the same way it always does, it just enhances the long term response.

 

[Methyl mike]

Tons of opinions on this topic, I can only offer a little data and you (OP) should be able to figure things yourself after.

People say taking GH in the AM when blood sugar is low are probably using it (GH) to burn fat. This makes sense and is a solid application of GH. If losing fat is your goal, this is all you need to know really.

Why take insulin with GH? WELL, for bodybuilders or anyone looking to gain muscle GH is never used correctly and insulin becomes almost mandatory if you want to gain anything. I'll explain, when you take a shot of GH either IM or Subq that shot will slowly release over some period of hours, yes I realize the half life is short but that's besudes the point, the point is typical GH shots that people typically do result in elevated growth hormone levels for quite some time. Possibly more than 24 hours even.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, mostly bad I would say. There's a couple things to consider, firstly is the release of free fatty acids into the bloodstream. When FFAs are floating around they cause your nervous system to not respond properly to elevations in blood sugar. Meaning, your body's insulin response is fucked. This is how GH leads to elevated blood sugars.

So this is why it's commonly recommended that you pin GH when blood sugar is low OR pin some insulin with it. Timing is relevant, and my opinion would be to pin short acting insulin before meals if using GH. How much GH requires insulin I have no idea, it's hard to say say. Get a glucose meter and some test strips and see what's going on in your body. If blood sugar is whacky use insulin to bring it under control. I would guess using more than 4ius a day will eventually lead to issues with insulin resistance, again for the reason mentioned. Elevated FFAs leading to elevated blood glucose levels if not corrected will absolutely cause major problems that you don't want.

The logical way to use GH if gaining size is the goal is IV, though I don't have much more to say on that just yet. If you are going to pin GH subq or IM assume it's just to lose fat and keep the dose small, 2ius twice a day max. If you want to gain size with GH and don't want to IV it, you would want to pin GH in the AM and preworkout, maybe 2 hours before or so. At least 5 ius twice a day. You will want to run humalog with it, use the typical 1iu per 10 grams carbs ratio and monitor blood sugars and make adjustments. Pin immediately prior to eating meals.


Running GH for size without insulin is stupid and doesn't work very well, it should be obvious why.

Lantus is terrible for bodybuilding you have to use a lot and it will make you fat. Using insulin in and of itself quickly becomes a chore unless you are stupid and reckless. If you want to use it safely and correctly, you will want to monitor blood sugars throughout the day for a while to learn your body.

There are two major issues of concern using insulin and they both have to do with low blood sugar.

#1 Going hypo when you don't expect it, like while driving a car, in the gym underneath a loaded barbell (happened to me) running, riding a bike etc etc. I've had my blood sugar crash BAD some 4 or 5 hours after a shot of humalog. This is preventable by keeping to a structured meal plan and eat every 2-3 hours. Keep things to eat handy at all times, not just when you think the insulin is active. .

#2 if you go hypo you are in a highly catabolic state, your body will see the low blood glucose level and kick out glucagon, common knowledge, what people never mention (possibly they dont know) is that glucagon is highly catabolic. It is responsible for breaking down muscle into aminos so your liver can create sugar through gluconeogenesis (among other things that glucagon does.) So if using insulin you must not let your blood sugar get so low you start going hypo (cold sweats at the start of it) or else you are eating muscle and wasting the insulin in the first place.

Pro bodybuilders can manage all this crap because it's their full time job. Recreational bodybuilders probably should stay away from GH and insulin in my opinion, but at least now you know how to do it right.

Anyway technically speaking insulin is always going to make you fat, it's the nature of the beast. We get around that with low dose DNP 125mg Ed and a bit of t3 50mcg works good. So a good test base with an extra anabolic, a rotation of orals, GH either IV or combined with insulin and a small amount of DNP and t3 will get you there or give up on bodybuilding. But do it right if you do do it, as I have laid the blueprint out above. Best wishes.

 

[MadStax]

Tons of opinions on this topic, I can only offer a little data and you (OP) should be able to figure things yourself after.

People say taking GH in the AM when blood sugar is low are probably using it (GH) to burn fat. This makes sense and is a solid application of GH. If losing fat is your goal, this is all you need to know really.

Why take insulin with GH? WELL, for bodybuilders or anyone looking to gain muscle GH is never used correctly and insulin becomes almost mandatory if you want to gain anything. I'll explain, when you take a shot of GH either IM or Subq that shot will slowly release over some period of hours, yes I realize the half life is short but that's besudes the point, the point is typical GH shots that people typically do result in elevated growth hormone levels for quite some time. Possibly more than 24 hours even.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, mostly bad I would say. There's a couple things to consider, firstly is the release of free fatty acids into the bloodstream. When FFAs are floating around they cause your nervous system to not respond properly to elevations in blood sugar. Meaning, your body's insulin response is fucked. This is how GH leads to elevated blood sugars.

So this is why it's commonly recommended that you pin GH when blood sugar is low OR pin some insulin with it. Timing is relevant, and my opinion would be to pin short acting insulin before meals if using GH. How much GH requires insulin I have no idea, it's hard to say say. Get a glucose meter and some test strips and see what's going on in your body. If blood sugar is whacky use insulin to bring it under control. I would guess using more than 4ius a day will eventually lead to issues with insulin resistance, again for the reason mentioned. Elevated FFAs leading to elevated blood glucose levels if not corrected will absolutely cause major problems that you don't want.

The logical way to use GH if gaining size is the goal is IV, though I don't have much more to say on that just yet. If you are going to pin GH subq or IM assume it's just to lose fat and keep the dose small, 2ius twice a day max. If you want to gain size with GH and don't want to IV it, you would want to pin GH in the AM and preworkout, maybe 2 hours before or so. At least 5 ius twice a day. You will want to run humalog with it, use the typical 1iu per 10 grams carbs ratio and monitor blood sugars and make adjustments. Pin immediately prior to eating meals.


Running GH for size without insulin is stupid and doesn't work very well, it should be obvious why.

Lantus is terrible for bodybuilding you have to use a lot and it will make you fat. Using insulin in and of itself quickly becomes a chore unless you are stupid and reckless. If you want to use it safely and correctly, you will want to monitor blood sugars throughout the day for a while to learn your body.

There are two major issues of concern using insulin and they both have to do with low blood sugar.

#1 Going hypo when you don't expect it, like while driving a car, in the gym underneath a loaded barbell (happened to me) running, riding a bike etc etc. I've had my blood sugar crash BAD some 4 or 5 hours after a shot of humalog. This is preventable by keeping to a structured meal plan and eat every 2-3 hours. Keep things to eat handy at all times, not just when you think the insulin is active. .

#2 if you go hypo you are in a highly catabolic state, your body will see the low blood glucose level and kick out glucagon, common knowledge, what people never mention (possibly they dont know) is that glucagon is highly catabolic. It is responsible for breaking down muscle into aminos so your liver can create sugar through gluconeogenesis (among other things that glucagon does.) So if using insulin you must not let your blood sugar get so low you start going hypo (cold sweats at the start of it) or else you are eating muscle and wasting the insulin in the first place.

Pro bodybuilders can manage all this crap because it's their full time job. Recreational bodybuilders probably should stay away from GH and insulin in my opinion, but at least now you know how to do it right.

Anyway technically speaking insulin is always going to make you fat, it's the nature of the beast. We get around that with low dose DNP 125mg Ed and a bit of t3 50mcg works good. So a good test base with an extra anabolic, a rotation of orals, GH either IV or combined with insulin and a small amount of DNP and t3 will get you there or give up on bodybuilding. But do it right if you do do it, as I have laid the blueprint out above. Best wishes.

First of all, welcome! Thank you for this great answer!

I will only add that I've found taking 1,000mg of Metformin ER every morning helps to significantly improve my insulin response, even when pinning both GH and insulin.

 

[Methyl mike]

First of all, welcome! Thank you for this great answer!

I will only add that I've found taking 1,000mg of Metformin ER every morning helps to significantly improve my insulin response, even when pinning both GH and insulin.

I've been active in these, if not this, community for a long time. Thanks for the welcome.

Metformin is good. Take care.

 

[justeat]

Tons of opinions on this topic, I can only offer a little data and you (OP) should be able to figure things yourself after.

People say taking GH in the AM when blood sugar is low are probably using it (GH) to burn fat. This makes sense and is a solid application of GH. If losing fat is your goal, this is all you need to know really.

Why take insulin with GH? WELL, for bodybuilders or anyone looking to gain muscle GH is never used correctly and insulin becomes almost mandatory if you want to gain anything. I'll explain, when you take a shot of GH either IM or Subq that shot will slowly release over some period of hours, yes I realize the half life is short but that's besudes the point, the point is typical GH shots that people typically do result in elevated growth hormone levels for quite some time. Possibly more than 24 hours even.

Is this a good thing or a bad thing? Well, mostly bad I would say. There's a couple things to consider, firstly is the release of free fatty acids into the bloodstream. When FFAs are floating around they cause your nervous system to not respond properly to elevations in blood sugar. Meaning, your body's insulin response is fucked. This is how GH leads to elevated blood sugars.

So this is why it's commonly recommended that you pin GH when blood sugar is low OR pin some insulin with it. Timing is relevant, and my opinion would be to pin short acting insulin before meals if using GH. How much GH requires insulin I have no idea, it's hard to say say. Get a glucose meter and some test strips and see what's going on in your body. If blood sugar is whacky use insulin to bring it under control. I would guess using more than 4ius a day will eventually lead to issues with insulin resistance, again for the reason mentioned. Elevated FFAs leading to elevated blood glucose levels if not corrected will absolutely cause major problems that you don't want.

The logical way to use GH if gaining size is the goal is IV, though I don't have much more to say on that just yet. If you are going to pin GH subq or IM assume it's just to lose fat and keep the dose small, 2ius twice a day max. If you want to gain size with GH and don't want to IV it, you would want to pin GH in the AM and preworkout, maybe 2 hours before or so. At least 5 ius twice a day. You will want to run humalog with it, use the typical 1iu per 10 grams carbs ratio and monitor blood sugars and make adjustments. Pin immediately prior to eating meals.


Running GH for size without insulin is stupid and doesn't work very well, it should be obvious why.

Lantus is terrible for bodybuilding you have to use a lot and it will make you fat. Using insulin in and of itself quickly becomes a chore unless you are stupid and reckless. If you want to use it safely and correctly, you will want to monitor blood sugars throughout the day for a while to learn your body.

There are two major issues of concern using insulin and they both have to do with low blood sugar.

#1 Going hypo when you don't expect it, like while driving a car, in the gym underneath a loaded barbell (happened to me) running, riding a bike etc etc. I've had my blood sugar crash BAD some 4 or 5 hours after a shot of humalog. This is preventable by keeping to a structured meal plan and eat every 2-3 hours. Keep things to eat handy at all times, not just when you think the insulin is active. .

#2 if you go hypo you are in a highly catabolic state, your body will see the low blood glucose level and kick out glucagon, common knowledge, what people never mention (possibly they dont know) is that glucagon is highly catabolic. It is responsible for breaking down muscle into aminos so your liver can create sugar through gluconeogenesis (among other things that glucagon does.) So if using insulin you must not let your blood sugar get so low you start going hypo (cold sweats at the start of it) or else you are eating muscle and wasting the insulin in the first place.

Pro bodybuilders can manage all this crap because it's their full time job. Recreational bodybuilders probably should stay away from GH and insulin in my opinion, but at least now you know how to do it right.

Anyway technically speaking insulin is always going to make you fat, it's the nature of the beast. We get around that with low dose DNP 125mg Ed and a bit of t3 50mcg works good. So a good test base with an extra anabolic, a rotation of orals, GH either IV or combined with insulin and a small amount of DNP and t3 will get you there or give up on bodybuilding. But do it right if you do do it, as I have laid the blueprint out above. Best wishes.

I really appreciate the thought out response dude. Luckily my weeks worth of researching has led me to most of these same conclusions and understanding. My plan as of after Xmas is to get a glucose meter and start testing my morning fasting levels. At this point I’m only using 2iu growth a day, mostly for fat loss and I’m ok with that currently. Insulin wise, I’m really just looking to fix any existing BG issues that may be present. Not going to start throwing in extra carbs just to take extra insulin. If anything I’d look to take small amounts after my heavy meals just to aid my natural production and keep bloods where they should be. Still good to know the ideal protocols though, just bc I’d be using the combo of gh and slin lightly doesn’t mean I shouldn’t still use the best producing protocol!

 

[Methyl mike]

I really appreciate the thought out response dude. Luckily my weeks worth of researching has led me to most of these same conclusions and understanding. My plan as of after Xmas is to get a glucose meter and start testing my morning fasting levels. At this point I’m only using 2iu growth a day, mostly for fat loss and I’m ok with that currently. Insulin wise, I’m really just looking to fix any existing BG issues that may be present. Not going to start throwing in extra carbs just to take extra insulin. If anything I’d look to take small amounts after my heavy meals just to aid my natural production and keep bloods where they should be. Still good to know the ideal protocols though, just bc I’d be using the combo of gh and slin lightly doesn’t mean I shouldn’t still use the best producing protocol!

My generation paved the way for the future, and it makes me feel time not wasted seeing this response. You are totally 100% on the right track, I use slim for exactly that reason I keep the doses small under 5ius log before big meals. Higher doses post workout but insulin really doesnt do much for us unless we are taking huge amounts of GH all the time. For recreational bbers it's best used to lessen the strain on your system. 2ius of GH Ed honestly gave me the best results hands down that I ever saw. You want to measure bg when waking and also 3-4 times after a meal. Good luck

 

[Smont]

have you taken HGH

Yes, but only once and I cut it short because I realized I didn't have enough to make proper use of it

 

[justeat]

what are you going to run it at when you do? 3IUs a day for 180 days? Something like that?

I’ve been using it at 2.5iu. 3 months at 2iu then the next 3 months at 2.5iu. Not a whole lot of theory here, it’s just what I did. I’ve always preferred smaller doses. I get great fat loss and some minimal other benefits probably. I’ve run it higher but didn’t really see much more. From what I understand, higher doses for anabolic effects really only shine with slin. I have yet to use slin so my thought is keep gh lower and just get the fat loss.