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Franklin-Shamrock clip. Was it a Work?

jas123

jas123

Well-known member
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Wow. This clip doesn't look very realistic. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but this looks a little shady. Anyone know the story behind this. I haven't seen this fight in a long time.
 
That clip is doctored, Shamrock slipped when he went for a high kick and then Franklin GnP'ed his ass.
 
I think that's before the kick, Rod, because you can see at the end there that Shammy goes for the ankle lock.
 
I thought it was a little suspicious when I saw it first...but then watching Shamrock deteriorate erased that thought. He got ko'd by sakuraba and put up no fight vs tito (twice). franklin lucked into a nice slip by shammy and pounded his face in.
 
Many people wondered if that fight was fixed. Including this clip, a few things made people think that such as Shamrock even attempting to throw a high kick which he never does in fights.

However, in this clip, I think Shamrock is shooting for a single leg. He is going to drive with his right leg and explode(this is the reason his left foot is off the ground) then realizes he is going to get punched so he slipped or fell back to avoid the punch.

Also think about this, Shamrock's strength is his leg and ankle locks so he wanted to go after his legs.
 
size said:
Many people wondered if that fight was fixed. Including this clip, a few things made people think that such as Shamrock even attempting to throw a high kick which he never does in fights.

However, in this clip, I think Shamrock is shooting for a single leg. He is going to drive with his right leg and explode(this is the reason his left foot is off the ground) then realizes he is going to get punched so he slipped or fell back to avoid the punch.

Also think about this, Shamrock's strength is his leg and ankle locks so he wanted to go after his legs.
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That makes sense. It could just have been Shamrock changing his mind in the middle of his movement. It just has a WWE look to it.

JK, Franklin's still top 10 in my book and probably top 5. Everyone loses.
 
jas123 said:
That makes sense. It could just have been Shamrock changing his mind in the middle of his movement. It just has a WWE look to it.

JK, Franklin's still top 10 in my book and probably top 5. Everyone loses.
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I think he is still ranked in the top 5. I personally have him ranked behind A. Silva, Lindland, Filho, and Kang. I would say that a 20-2 record is pretty damn good.
 
Micro analysis

jas123 said:
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Wow. This clip doesn't look very realistic. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist, but this looks a little shady. Anyone know the story behind this. I haven't seen this fight in a long time.
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I think that's the danger of looking at a 2 second clip. My guess is that you could take just about any MMA fight you'd care to choose and find 3 or 4 of these "suspicious looking" movements that are really just the result of a split-second reaction.

I would have to agree with size's post above and say it's more likely that what we're seeing there is a mismatch of reflexes. Ken is in the process of dropping for a shoot and just about falls over backward when he realizes that he's mis-timed/underestimated Franklin's punch.

I don't think we're watching a "workable" sport at this point. Too many angles, too many knowledgeable fans. WWF fans KNOW they're watching a work, and they're OK with it.

I think it's safe to assume that ZERO MMA fans are OK with a work, so it had better be the Mona f'ing Lisa of all works, or the involved parties/organization better prepare for the ensuing s*#tstorm.

Cheers,

:cheers:
 
jsutter55 said:
I think that's the danger of looking at a 2 second clip. My guess is that you could take just about any MMA fight you'd care to choose and find 3 or 4 of these "suspicious looking" movements that are really just the result of a split-second reaction.

I would have to agree with size's post above and say it's more likely that what we're seeing there is a mismatch of reflexes. Ken is in the process of dropping for a shoot and just about falls over backward when he realizes that he's mis-timed/underestimated Franklin's punch.

I don't think we're watching a "workable" sport at this point. Too many angles, too many knowledgeable fans. WWF fans KNOW they're watching a work, and they're OK with it.

I think it's safe to assume that ZERO MMA fans are OK with a work, so it had better be the Mona f'ing Lisa of all works, or the involved parties/organization better prepare for the ensuing s*#tstorm.

Cheers,

:cheers:
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PRIDE has had its share of works, yet there is no upheaval about them. The Takada-Coleman fight from PRIDE 5 is an admitted work and if anyone has seen it, then you know how obvious it was. Bas and Quadros talk about how it looked suspicious because Coleman didn't try to fight out of the heelhook.
 
Watch his right foot, he's planting it before he goes down. That's proper technique for a single leg. Especially if you look at his other leg, he bent his knee like he was going to shoot through. I'm not a fan of Shamrock, but I don't think this is really conclusive. At first glance it looks bad, but if you think critically it's pretty plausible that he was going for a takedown.
 
I wonder if Cro-cop/Takada was a work. I havn't seen the fight, but how could Cro-cop not hurt Takada even if it was his first Pride fight.
 
VERY Surprised

Rodja said:
PRIDE has had its share of works, yet there is no upheaval about them. The Takada-Coleman fight from PRIDE 5 is an admitted work and if anyone has seen it, then you know how obvious it was. Bas and Quadros talk about how it looked suspicious because Coleman didn't try to fight out of the heelhook.
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Rodja,

This is news to me, and shocking news at that. I cannot claim to have seen the match you're talking about, but I will be sure to go back and give it a look. PRIDE 5 was quite a while ago, but still no excuse.

Can you point me to a link where the fighters or the organization admitted the fight was a fraud? I'd be VERY interested in sharing this news with some friends and family that are also big fans of MMA. In saying that PRIDE has "had it's share of works", is there a credible source I can review that lists the other fights that have been exposed as or admitted to being "works"? Any in the UFC that you're aware of?

More disturbing to me is the lack of upheaval you've pointed out. Speaking for myself, I can state unequivocally that I am most certainly NOT OK with "worked" matches in MMA.

I've got no problem shelling out 40-50 bucks 3 or 4 times a month for MMA pay-per-view events, but I have no desire to give that money to an organization that promotes or condones fake matches.

Cheers,

:cheers:
 
jsutter55 said:
Rodja,

This is news to me, and shocking news at that. I cannot claim to have seen the match you're talking about, but I will be sure to go back and give it a look. PRIDE 5 was quite a while ago, but still no excuse.

Can you point me to a link where the fighters or the organization admitted the fight was a fraud? I'd be VERY interested in sharing this news with some friends and family that are also big fans of MMA. In saying that PRIDE has "had it's share of works", is there a credible source I can review that lists the other fights that have been exposed as or admitted to being "works"? Any in the UFC that you're aware of?

More disturbing to me is the lack of upheaval you've pointed out. Speaking for myself, I can state unequivocally that I am most certainly NOT OK with "worked" matches in MMA.

I've got no problem shelling out 40-50 bucks 3 or 4 times a month for MMA pay-per-view events, but I have no desire to give that money to an organization that promotes or condones fake matches.

Cheers,

:cheers:
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I cannot find any links regarding Takada or Coleman and I also cannot find a video clip of it to let you judge for yourself. I don't know if you saw the Shogun-Randleman fight, but that one also stinks of a work. I personally do not really care, but I do think that the public should be informed at a later time.
 
jsutter55 said:
Rodja,

This is news to me, and shocking news at that. I cannot claim to have seen the match you're talking about, but I will be sure to go back and give it a look. PRIDE 5 was quite a while ago, but still no excuse.

Can you point me to a link where the fighters or the organization admitted the fight was a fraud? I'd be VERY interested in sharing this news with::run: run: some friends and family that are also big fans of MMA. In saying that PRIDE has "had it's share of works", is there a credible source I can review that lists the other fights that have been exposed as or admitted to being "works"? Any in the UFC that you're aware of?

More disturbing to me is the lack of upheaval you've pointed out. Speaking for myself, I can state unequivocally that I am most certainly NOT OK with "worked" matches in MMA.

I've got no problem shelling out 40-50 bucks 3 or 4 times a month for MMA pay-per-view events, but I have no desire to give that money to an organization that promotes or condones fake matches.

Cheers,

:cheers:
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Here's some discussion of it from Sherdog. Of course this is hardly a credible source, but it does seem to be the general consensus that it was a work.

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Good point about the 2 second clip. Taken out of context you can make many things look bad. I actually don't think Randleman-Shogun was a work simply because it's Randleman. The guy's performance level is pretty unpredictable from fight to fight. It would be pretty hard to work a fight these days with how knowledgible fans are. The last work was probably Igor-CC, clearly fake. :run:
 
jas123 said:
Here's some discussion of it from Sherdog. Of course this is hardly a credible source, but it does seem to be the general consensus that it was a work.

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Good point about the 2 second clip. Taken out of context you can make many things look bad. I actually don't think Randleman-Shogun was a work simply because it's Randleman. The guy's performance level is pretty unpredictable from fight to fight. It would be pretty hard to work a fight these days with how knowledgible fans are. The last work was probably Igor-CC, clearly fake. :run:
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OK, I think I'm putting the pieces together now. Apparently, PRIDE was spun off from Japan's "pro-wrestling" community. Early on, there were some questionable matches that featured pro wrestlers fighting MMA guys (Takada vs. Coleman). I wasn't able to find a source where Coleman, Takada, or PRIDE admitted the match was phony, but I do agree there is plenty of fair-minded speculation that something was fishy about that fight. :trout:

The good news, in my opinion, is that those who think the early matches were worked have expressed plenty of outrage. So while there was no "upheaval", there seems to be a school of thought among fans that PRIDE cleaned up their act after the authenticity of these matches was questioned. I'm going to stand by my original statement that I don't THINK we're watching a workable sport at this point.

I did see the Shogun-Randleman fight, Rodja, but I didn't see anything that made me suspect the fight was rigged. Of course, now you've got me doubting my ability to spot a work. I have never been able to stomach professional wrestling because I know that it's not real. Since I never watch the most talented pro wrestlers ply their craft, would I even be able to spot an extremely good fake? :think:

I can't say for 100% certain, but I will say here and now before all the MMA fans on this forum as my witnesses..

The first time CroCop hits somebody with a chair, or the first time Fedor attempts to deliver the "People's Elbow", I will NEVER purchase another PRIDE event again.

Cheers!

:cheers:
 
jas123 said:
Here's some discussion of it from Sherdog. Of course this is hardly a credible source, but it does seem to be the general consensus that it was a work.

Invalid Link Removed

Good point about the 2 second clip. Taken out of context you can make many things look bad. I actually don't think Randleman-Shogun was a work simply because it's Randleman. The guy's performance level is pretty unpredictable from fight to fight. It would be pretty hard to work a fight these days with how knowledgible fans are. The last work was probably Igor-CC, clearly fake. :run:
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Igor really took one for the team on that work.
 
Frye was the man back in the day, but I could definitely see the Takayama fight as a work. Haven't seen the JLB fight in a while but I didn't pick up on that when I saw it. His fight at UFC 8 where he KOed a guy with a jab in like 8 seconds never seemed quite right, but I don't think it was a work.
 
Rogue Drone said:
Either that clip is doctored, or else the Legend of Shamrock as the too old Spastic grows. Knees buckling in fear?

Losing to Silva might be the best thing to happen for Franklin, he did seem to be getting a little cocky, too much time spent with Hughes?, often fighters come back better when badly beaten. IMO, Franklin's talented and smart, he'll return hard when he's ready.

I was justing stirring the pot with the Frye accusation,to my eye, none of those were works. How do you work a fight like that hockeybrawl?, prime JLB needed no one's cooperation to beatdown Don, Quarry did not belong there in the first place.

I knew you guys missed my left field nonsense while I was on my seasonal football sabbatical :twisted: I kinda got Jas, who was probably thinking I was full of **** but too polite to say so. I was hoping to bait Rodja into setting me straight, no joy, Alexander knows too well that I'm serial troublemaker.
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I was actually going to ask you how the hell you would think that those fights by Frye were works? I know that the Kimo-Bob Sapp fight was a work (too much cartoonish antics), but, as you said, JLB needs NO help. I really don't think any of the UFC's fights have been works, except for maybe Kimo-Shammy.
 
Rogue Drone said:
I kinda got Jas, who was probably thinking I was full of **** but too polite to say so. I was hoping to bait Rodja into setting me straight, no joy, Alexander knows too well that I'm serial troublemaker.
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Yeah, you got me on the Frye-Takayama fight. It was so ridiculous that I could see it being a work. But I should have known that a closet JLB nuthugger like yourself would never discredit your boy:twisted:
 
Rogue Drone said:
No closeting here, Geronimo's had my swinging from his sack since about '95.

His best days are behind him, but he has a great chance to be the K-1 Grandprix champ finally, if he can get past Semmy Schilt this Friday night.
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I would love to see JLB beat the **** out of Sylvia and shut his ass up.
 
Can you imagine the set-up for a Takayama/Frye work "O.K. Takayama you're going to take an unbelievably brutal beatdown to make this look honest, and Frye you too will take 75 clean shots to the face, you guys cool with that". I'd feel bad for Sylvia if he fought JLB, it would be embarassing. Oh and Rogue do you think JLB's fight with Tadao Yasuda(name might be way off) was a work? That fight didn't seem right.
 
You guys don't think Sylvia's "Jab N Pray" style would win a fight with JLB?

JLB definitely hits hard. I don't follow K-1 that closely, but I saw him nearly knockout Hunt with a brutal high kick. Wish I saw the whole fight, but just found a clip of that part.
 
Rogue Drone said:
Jas, Did'nt you mean to put a :nutkick: in between the Jab N' Pray hope style for Sylvia?
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I figured the sacrcasm would be obvious without it, but I prefer the :trout:. Damn, Rogue you know your ****. I'll have to look for that K-1 2002 GP on P2P.
 
I just looked it up and amazingly I had the guys name exactly right, Tadao Yasuda. He beat Lebanner with a forearm choke back in Inoke bom ba ye 01. It was Lebanner's first MMA match, but it still looked fishy. And yeah Rogue you sure do know your stand-up ****, RK killa!
 
Rogue Drone said:
I can imagine that strategy session with Tak and Frye's reaction. :wtf: Of all the ways to do a work, that fight setup would be the very last way to scheme a desired outcome. :lol:

Jas, Did'nt you mean to put a :nutkick: in between the Jab N' Pray hope style for Sylvia?

Sylvia uses jabs to maintain distance on smaller opponents for his reach, that's a ineffectual strategy when facing a top K-1 striker. Jabs are not often used in Kickboxing, because it exposes the other side to a arcing counter kick when the jabber has to expose his centerline and Sylvia has not an inside power game, I have yet to see him cross anyone really well upclose, single or, god forbid, a power cross/hook combo when someone slips his ranging jab and engages in tight.

Jerome Le Banner has fought a number of very tall distance strikers in his career - two options avaliable, negate the longer punch range with kicks to knees or thighs or kidneys, his leg reach versus their arm reach to cripple and/or duck and close distance with a sidestep to pound the torso from solar plexus to groin with following shots to the jaw or work the opposite, head to tail.

Le Banner is devastating, in a worldclass WBA style sense, when he can get in close and tight. No one wants to get in a slugging match with this guy. Other K-1 Elite fighters have the mobility to prevent JLB from closing distance,they counter circle on the balls of their feet, Sylvia does not, he's a straightback flatfooted oaf, comparatively.

The way to beat JLB is mobility striking to his left side, he's a natural righty who fights southpaw, which means he's vunerable to his non dominant side as he leads with his right, do not let him straight stalk you to cut off the ring and trap you in tight.

Under MMA rules, Sylvia has the knowledge and experience advantage, but I doubt the athletic one, Le Banner is both quick, for a very large man, and really strong. He has the shoulders and traps of a Mark Coleman.

Sylvia counts on being able to disavantage poor (by K-1 standards) strikers with his reach who can't work kicks for duration and/or close distance for the kill inside. 267 pound brawler JLB would gut him in close or chop him down with his shins at range.

JLB is three years off his prime,having lost two of his best years to an arm fracture, Sylvia would not be a test, big tall leggy last year's K-1 champion Schilt definetly is.

Alexander - I think I know the fight you're referring to, the old small guy in the Gi? If that's the one, that wasn't a work, that was a pitiful mismatch. The Gi guy went for a single leg something, and caught a knee, JLB was toying with him at halfspeed.

The fight you saw, Jas, was the K-1 2002 Grandprix Semifinal of Hunt_JLB. Hunt quit, cause he was getting the living **** beat out of him.
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If you can make Hunt quit because the beating is too bad, then you know you have some deadly hands. I remember Hunt saying that every time he fought LeBanner that he lost 10 years of his life.
 
On the subject of sketchy fights, what was the deal with the Eastman-Lutter fight? If this is the fight I'm thinking of, it looked like Lutter wiffed just barely but Eastman went down and out.
 
Rogue Drone said:
I have yet to see him cross anyone really well upclose, single or, god forbid, a power cross/hook combo when someone slips his ranging jab and engages in tight.
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Actually, I believe Arlovski has done it more than once, and it put Sylvia on his ass each time.
 
jas123 said:
On the subject of sketchy fights, what was the deal with the Eastman-Lutter fight? If this is the fight I'm thinking of, it looked like Lutter wiffed just barely but Eastman went down and out.
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That was a strange fight. 1st round is a contender for worst round of all time. Suddenly, they come out in the 2nd to a one punch KO. Weird as hell, but I don't think it was a work.
 
Rogue Drone said:
Savage, send Timmy a case of Lipoderm Ultra with AM's compliments, the only thing hip about that guy is his spare tire.
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Ha! Yeah.

Now, if only we made a supplement to increase athleticism and personality.
 
Beowulf said:
That was a strange fight. 1st round is a contender for worst round of all time. Suddenly, they come out in the 2nd to a one punch KO. Weird as hell, but I don't think it was a work.
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I remember seeing a replay of the KO from a camera above the cage and looked like Lutter never made contact. Maybe I'm thinking of something I saw on the net rather than a replay during the actual show. Or maybe I'm just thinking of a bad Nick Cage movie.....Snake Eyes was it?
 
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