Fragment & Grunt: The story of a biochemical relationship

Re: Day 22 (yesterday for real): Arms & Abs

idunk42 said:
Grunt, I've noticed the same thing as far as water retention is much greater later on the day, compared to that in the morning. But, I've been pinning at bedtime, or during the night, so Im not too sure if the timing of the frag has to do with the increased bloat throughout the day. It just might be because we arent drinking anything during the night, thus the bloat decreases. As we drink and eat during the day, then the bloat steadily increases. Just my outlook on it. :)
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Idunk not sure if you read my excessively long post but I do fell that dosing at bedtime may not be the most effective way because during your sleep you get a GH increase due to the fasting you are undergoing which therefore has the same lipolytic effect as the fragment and so there is a limit to the rate of lipolysis and also excess freed fatty acids will be stored in fat tissue once again.

I think pre-workout is best assuming you don't get any nasty side effects and also in the morning could be a good time. I have outlined what I feel is the best way to bracket your nutriiton around it as well.
 
Re: Day 22 (yesterday for real): Arms & Abs

The Godfather said:
Idunk not sure if you read my excessively long post but I do fell that dosing at bedtime may not be the most effective way because during your sleep you get a GH increase due to the fasting you are undergoing which therefore has the same lipolytic effect as the fragment and so there is a limit to the rate of lipolysis and also excess freed fatty acids will be stored in fat tissue once again.

I think pre-workout is best assuming you don't get any nasty side effects and also in the morning could be a good time. I have outlined what I feel is the best way to bracket your nutriiton around it as well.
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I actually did read it. Today I started pinning preworkout, and I will continue to do that, as well as work around my meals. :D
 
Tom 185 said:
how is the fatigue? i thought that was why it is primarily pinned post-workout
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There is none. There seemed to be a hypoglycemic reaction at first, but after a few days of dosing it, this phenomenon vanished and instead there is MORE energy after pinning.
 
Grunt76 said:
There is none. There seemed to be a hypoglycemic reaction at first, but after a few days of dosing it, this phenomenon vanished and instead there is MORE energy after pinning.
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Exactly. The first time I did it, I felt like sh1t my entire workout. Dont know why, but the second time I did it, everything was all good. Felt quite a bit of energy. :D
 
Day 23 (yesterday): Rest

CALORIES
Expended: 2,518
Absorbed: 2,712 (31% fat, 32% carbs, 37% protein = 249g)

Observations
Nothing new to report.
 
Re: Day 24 (yesterday): Delts, Traps & Calves

WORKOUT
Barbell Military Press Smith 125x8, 140x5, 155x3
Close-Grip Upright Rowing 135x8, 170x5, 190x3
Reverse Pec Deck (6s TUT) 120x8, 125x8, 130x7
DB Side Lateral Raises (6s TUT) 20x8, 25x8
Barbell Shrug 245x8, 265x7, 265x6
Calf Raise 300x20, 300x15

Bodyweight 226

Workout duration: 50 minutes

Aerobics: Treadmill, 30 minutes @ 15% incline, 3.7 Km/h

Other aerobics: Bicycle ride, 30 minutes


CALORIES
Expended: 3,631
Absorbed: 3,167 (27% fat, 31% carbs, 42% protein = 327g)


Observations
Good workout. I feel that I am retaining water. Bodyweight is down, but very undramatically. I would expect my bodyweight to decrease more quickly than that when cutting naturally... We'll see... One week left...
 
Day 25: Rest

CALORIES
Expended: 2,518
Absorbed: 3,060 (23% fat, 40% carbs, 37% protein = 279g)

OBSERVATIONS
Nothing much new to report. Spent the day with some lady friends, diet was off. Came away with 500 extra calories but decent protein intake.
 
Day 26 (yesterday): Back & Biceps

WORKOUT
Bent-Over Row 225x8, 245x4, 255x4
Narrow-Grip Chin-Up 226.5x8, 226.5x56 226.6x4
Wide-Grip pulldown (6s TUT) 135x8, 140x8, 140x8
Cable Rowing (6s TUT) 135x8, 135x8, 135x5
Seated alternate DB Curl 55x5, 60x3
Supinated Preacher DB Curl (6s TUT) 30x8, 30x7

Bodyweight 224.5

Workout duration: 55 minutes

Aerobics: Treadmill, 30 minutes @ 15% incline, 3.8 Km/h

Other aerobics: Bicycle ride, 30 minutes

CALORIES
Expended: 3,616
Absorbed: 1,966 (4% fat, 46% carbs, 50% protein = 246g)

Observations
Good workout even though I had had only 600 calories prior to training whereas I usually have at least two meals before my workout. Of course, methylcobalamin helped quite a bit in the energy department. Bodyweight is down again, pretty significantly. I am leaner, yet bloated. This might be a trend?
 
I'm dying to see how this stuff pans out for you. The B12 is definitely a nice addition to just about anything. I see it as promising for PCT.
 
Beowulf said:
I'm dying to see how this stuff pans out for you. The B12 is definitely a nice addition to just about anything. I see it as promising for post cycle therapy.
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I looked at myself again in the mirror this morning, which is the time that I show less bloat, as I usually do. As a matter of fact, I look at almost only my abs. Looking definitely leaner. I took a look at my back for the first time since starting this log and I can clearly see that I am MUCH leaner. Bloat seems mostly abdominal... I'm getting happier about this product ... :)
 
Glad too see everyone is starting to see some results..I still have a couple of vials waiting for me in the fridge..the bloat and hypo had a little worried. This log is going to come in handy when the time comes.
 
Grunt how long till you are done? I actually bought a little more recently so that I could continue and I was wondering if you can keep us posted as to the results after you stop and the bloat goes away.

Mr.50


Grunt76 said:
I looked at myself again in the mirror this morning, which is the time that I show less bloat, as I usually do. As a matter of fact, I look at almost only my abs. Looking definitely leaner. I took a look at my back for the first time since starting this log and I can clearly see that I am MUCH leaner. Bloat seems mostly abdominal... I'm getting happier about this product ... :)
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Mr.50 said:
Grunt how long till you are done? I actually bought a little more recently so that I could continue and I was wondering if you can keep us posted as to the results after you stop and the bloat goes away.

Mr.50
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A few more days. Iprobably forgot to pin on one day, and forgot half another day...
 
Day 27 (yesterday): Chest & Triceps

WORKOUT
Incline Bench Press 225x8 235x5 245x3
Flat Dumbell Press 105x5 105x5 105x3
Incline Dumbell Flye (6s TUT) 40x8 40x8 40x7
Pec Deck (6s TUT) 140x8 140x8 140x7
Close-Grip Bench 185x7 195x5 205x3
Skull Crusher (6s TUT) 60x8 60x8

Bodyweight 224

Workout duration: 55 minutes

Aerobics: Treadmill, 30 minutes @ 15% incline, 3.8 Km/h

Other aerobics: Bicycle ride, 30 minutes

CALORIES
Expended: 3,651
Absorbed: 2,903 (22% fat, 44% carbs, 35% protein = 250g)

Observations
Bodyweight is down again!! :woohoo: Moreover, an interesting situation that is happening to me is that my appetite is greatly diminished. I have begun taking some rhodolia rosea and 5-htp, which might be the cause. Or the energizing effects of both the fragment and the methylcobalamin are compounding enough that it diminishes the need for food. Well, this is a downright GREAT combination for cutting.

This log is windiing down, with only a few days left to go. Here is a preliminary summary of what I learnt:

-In the future, I will begin fragment at 100mcg ED for 20 days until the first vial is gone. The hypoglycemic and water retention effects, coupled with no fatloss in the first few weeks of treatment incite me to believe that any higher dose is probably a waste.

-The second vial will be dosed at 150mcg ED until gone, which should take 13 days. The third and subsequent vials would be dosed at either 150mcg ED or 200mcg.

-I feel that the 200mcg dose may be a little bit high. That I be able to complete a 15-minute medium-intensity bicycle ride, a 60 minute weights workout and 30 minutes of treadmill work without feeling any hunger even when having only 600 calories in me tells me that 200mcg frees up a LOT of fat from the adipocytes. Trying 150mcg should prove to be more efficient, both because it allows treatment to be stretched longer and because fat release should be proportional to what can actually be burnt off.

-I feel that stacking the fragment with T3 should be utterly awesome, removing my 150mcg "ideal dose" limit and moving it closer to the 200mcg and heck why not 250mcg when on a good dose of T3. This fragment should prove an extremely valuable alternative to clenbuterol.
 
Re: Day 27 (yesterday): Chest & Triceps

Grunt76 said:
-I feel that stacking the fragment with T3 should be utterly awesome, removing my 150mcg "ideal dose" limit and moving it closer to the 200mcg and heck why not 250mcg when on a good dose of T3. This fragment should prove an extremely valuable alternative to clenbuterol.
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Do you think the frag will help with the muscle burning effects that T3 sometimes does? Has your muscle mass stayed the same, no muscle loss during your cut??

Im only asking, just because Im also taking igf with mine, so Im getting the effects of that with the frag. Thanks bro.
 
Grunt - thoughts on combining with Albuterol to help turn up the metabolic furnace to burn the fat that the frag helps release?

Am I right to think about this stuff like I think about transdermal yohimbine??? (They both seem to release fat from fat cells right?)
 
Re: Day 27 (yesterday): Chest & Triceps

idunk42 said:
Do you think the frag will help with the muscle burning effects that T3 sometimes does? Has your muscle mass stayed the same, no muscle loss during your cut??

Im only asking, just because Im also taking igf with mine, so Im getting the effects of that with the frag. Thanks bro.
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Well I haven't calculated my average calorie deficit but I can tell you right off the bat that I seem to be every bit as big as I was before starting the frag, only more defined. My muscle has behaved as it would while being on maintenance calories not as it should on a calorie deficit. This is consistent with the internal "feeding effect" where the fatty acids flood the bloodstream just as they would when having a big fatty meal. I would not go so far as to say the fragment's fat-freeing effect would be enough to prevent catabolism from, say 100mcg T3. Only anabolics can do that. Would it help though? Absolutely.

Now there might have been some fat redeposition effect. My arms for example, do not seem any less fatty than they did 3.5 weeks ago. OTOH, I have only lost 6lbs of weight, and may well be retaining quite a bit of water.

The final verdict will have to wait until about 3-4 days after finishing off the fragment.
 
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jmh80 said:
Grunt - thoughts on combining with Albuterol to help turn up the metabolic furnace to burn the fat that the frag helps release?

Am I right to think about this stuff like I think about transdermal yohimbine??? (They both seem to release fat from fat cells right?)
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I agree on both counts man. Frag + albuterol + low-dose T3 should be an incredible combo if you ask me. You wouldn't even need anabolics if you keep the T3 reasonable.
 
Day 28: Rest

CALORIES
Expended: 2,500
Absorbed: 2,209 (26% fat, 32% carbs, 42% protein = 234g)

OBSERVATIONS
Nothing much new to report. Little appetite, which is very unusual for me.
 
Day 29: Thighs & Calves

WORKOUT
Leg Press (6s TUT) 405x8 450x8 450x6
Split Squat Smith 85x8 85x8 85x7
SLDL Toes Raised 185x8 195x8 205x8
Leg Extension 110 120
Leg Curl 100 100
Calf Raise 300 300

Workout duration: 50 minutes

Aerobics: Treadmill, 30 minutes @ 15% incline, 3.8 Km/h

Other aerobics: Bicycle ride, 30 minutes

CALORIES
Expended: 3,610
Absorbed: 3,218 (20% fat, 41% carbs, 39% protein = 314g)

Observations
Forgot to weigh myself. Very intense workout. My quads are doing so well now that I have started squatting again. I was able to do 450 x 8 with 3 second eccentrics and 3 second concentric. That was great. And painful. :)
 
Day 30: Arms & Abs

WORKOUT
Standing Alt. Dumbell Curl 65x8 70x5 75x3
Hammer Curl 65x4 70x2
Spider Curl (vertical preacher EZ) (6s TUT) 62x8 67x6
Tricep Pulldown 105x8 120x4 120x4
45° Barbell Arm Extension (6s TUT) 57x8 57x8
Cable Crunch 200x20 200x20
Reverse Crunch 15 8

Workout duration: 75 minutes

Other aerobics: bicycle ride, 30 minutes

CALORIES
Expended: 3,253
Absorbed: 3,357 (32% fat, 27% carbs, 41% protein = 342g)

OBSERVATIONS
Nothing new to report. OK workout, wasn't really into it for unknown reason. Too many people to chat with, I guess. This arms & abs workout is such light work, I have to be really concentrated otherwise I'm not serious about it.
 
Day 31 (yesterday): Rest

CALORIES
Expended: 2,518
Absorbed: 2,209 (14% fat, 39% carbs, 47% protein = 256g)

OBSERVATIONS
Pinned the last of the fragment during this day. There was approximately 160mcg left. I will measure again in the morning, as well as provide a full calorie recap for the second half of this log. I have enjoyed the fragment, and might run it again depending on how the measurements pan out. For the sake of science, I will be holding off on my clen/T3 dosing until monday morning, leaving me two full days to get rid of any water retention. I weighed myself on day 30 and bodyweight was at 226.5. This isn't a very significant departure from the 229.5 at the beginning of this log, although I have a feeling I might have gained some muscle. How this could be in a calorie deficit, I do not know. More data in the morning as it is past 2AM here.
 
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Measurements Recap

DATE _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 4/12/2006 _ _ _ _ 5/13/2006 _ _ _ _ DIFFERENCE
Bodyweight _ _ _ _ _ 229.5 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 226.5 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -3.0
left forearm _ _ _ _ _. 14.50 _ _ _ _ _ __ 14.25 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -0.25
left upper arm _ _ _. _ 18.25 _ _ _ _ ._ _ 18.00 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -0.25
left deltoid _ _ _ _ _ _ 19.50 _ _ _ _ ._ _ 19.88 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ +0.375
around bellybutton _ _ 37.00 _ _ _ _ ._ _ 35.50 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -1.5
left thigh _ _ _ _ _ _ _ 27.50 _ _ _ _ ._ _ 27.00 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ -0.5
left calf _ _ _ _ _ _ . _ 18.00 _ _ _ _ ._ _ 18.00 _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _=

No big differences here. Actually, I'm surprised to see such small differences because I am visually in better shape than I was when starting the frag, but these measurements don't say it like it is. Although my "around bellybutton" measurement didn't decrease much, my abdominal area just above that "love handle" zone has leaned out more. Whoever requested pictures for this log was right: they would have made a big difference. I'll now post my calorie recap, which might or might not tell more of this tale.
 
Re: Measurements Recap

Hey Grunt, are you still gonna wait a few days before taking measurements again just to make sure there still isnt some water weight present around the abdominal area?
 
End-cycle calorie recap

DATE _ _ _ Absorbed _ Expended _ Balance
4/27/2006 _ _ 3,105 _ _ _ 3,641 _ _ _ ._ -536
4/28/2006 _ _ 2,676 _ _ _ 2,727 _ _ _ _ _ -51
4/29/2006 _ _ 3,486 _ _ _ 3,740 _ _ _ ._ -254
4/30/2006 _ _ 3,358 _ _ _ 3,298 _ _ _ __ _ 60
5/1/2006 _ . _ 2,860 _ _ _ 2,526 _ _ _ _ _ 334
5/2/2006 _ . _ 2,479 _ _ _ 3,689 _ _ ._ -1,210
5/3/2006 _ . _ 2,743 _ _ _ 3,695 _ _ _ ._ -952
5/4/2006 _ . _ 2,712 _ _ _ 2,518 _ _ _ _ _ 194
5/5/2006 _ . _ 3,167 _ _ _ 3,631 _ _ _ ._ -464
5/6/2006 _ . _ 3,060 _ _ _ 2,518 _ _ _ _ _ 542
5/7/2006 _ . _ 2,086 _ _ _ 3,616 _ _ ._ -1,530
5/8/2006 _ . _ 2,903 _ _ _ 3,645 _ _ _ ._ -742
5/9/2006 _ . _ 2,209 _ _ _ 2,500 _ _ _ ._ -291
5/10/2006 _ _ 3,218 _ _ _ 3,610 _ _ _ ._ -392
5/11/2006 _ _ 3,357 _ _ _ 3,253 _ _ _ _ _ 104
5/12/2006 _ _ 2,209 _ _ _ 2,518 _ _ _ ._ -309

TOTAL _ _ ._ 45,628 _ _ 51,125 _ _ ._ -5,497

DAILY
AVERAGE _ _ 2,852 _ _ _ 3,195 _ _ _ ._ -344

My estimated average daily calorie deficit was only 344. That isn't much! Still, I felt that I was in "serious dieting mode" during this time. In any case, it's better than the -239 calorie balance I had achieved in the first half of this log. Not that energy had been lacking in the gym, but simply that the amount of food ingested was much less than usual. With my 5,500 calorie deficit during the second half of this log, I would expect to have lost 1.5 lbs in bodyweight, whereas in fact I lost 3lbs, so that's good.

Could I have done better? Yes, sure. This stuff is supposed to be run in a calorie deficit and I thought I was running a pretty good one, which turns out is puny. I feel that the fragment has been holding its end of the bargain, but that I might have let it down with my not-so-great diet. It's pretty difficult for me to get in only 2500 calories and yet have 50% of that come from protein to hit 300g. Enough excuses! If I run it again, it will be with T3 and AAS.
 
Re: Measurements Recap

idunk42 said:
Hey Grunt, are you still gonna wait a few days before taking measurements again just to make sure there still isnt some water weight present around the abdominal area?
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YES I WILL. I feel this can be a very important piece of information. And it is also why, in the name of science and of you my fellow boardmembers, that I will be holding off on starting my clen / T3 cycle for TWO WHOLE DAYS just so that these new measurements show just any post-fragment water drop.

You guys can't say Grunt doesn't go the extra mile. ;)
 
FitnFirm said:
GIVE US SOME PICTURES OR THE DOUGHBOY GETS IT!!!!!
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I'll be posting pics as "befores" in my upcoming T3/Clen/TRN/ZOL cutting cycle log. I'll post a link in this thread for all my :blink: fans :blink: to follow... :p

They're nothing spectacular, really. Hopefully the "after" will be something to pride myself with...
 
FitnFirm said:
How do you plan on dosing your T3 Grunt?

You know I have to take that for medical reasons, low thryoid. You def feel it when you first start. But im on a low dose with synthroid too, pain that I have to take that forever!!!!!!! :(
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Any questions relating to my upcoming cutter should go into that very thread... Here: Invalid Link Removed
 
Re: Day 30: Arms & Abs

Grunt76 said:
WORKOUT
Standing Alt. Dumbell Curl 65x8 70x5 75x3
Hammer Curl 65x4 70x2
Spider Curl (vertical preacher EZ) (6s TUT) 62x8 67x6
Tricep Pulldown 105x8 120x4 120x4
45° Barbell Arm Extension (6s TUT) 57x8 57x8
Cable Crunch 200x20 200x20
Reverse Crunch 15 8

Workout duration: 75 minutes

Other aerobics: bicycle ride, 30 minutes

CALORIES
Expended: 3,253/
Absorbed: 3,357 (32% fat, 27% carbs, 41% protein = 342g)

OBSERVATIONS
Nothing new to report. OK workout, wasn't really into it for unknown reason. Too many people to chat with, I guess. This arms & abs workout is such light work, I have to be really concentrated otherwise I'm not serious about it.
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Seems like your a strong dude, your workout style is close to mine, do you ever go high reps. hope you look as good as you feel.
 
Re: Day 30: Arms & Abs

somewhatgifted said:
Seems like your a strong dude, your workout style is close to mine, do you ever go high reps. hope you look as good as you feel.
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Actually, these numbers do make me look pretty good. My big 3 lifts suck though. Instead of going hi reps, I go long TUT. These (6s TUT) sets of 8 actually last 48 seconds of pure muscle contraction, roughly equivalent to a 18-20 rep set in terms of time under tension. I much much prefer long TUT to higher reps. I don't look as good as I usually feel, but I'm working at it. ;)

And thanks for stopping by, it's always nice that you do. :cheers:
 
Closing remarks

I didn't drop any additional water that would make any kind of visible difference. Waist & biceps measurements are the same, I didn't bother with the other ones.

I suggest looking at the other logs' success rate and comparing that to their calorie deficit. I feel there should be a strong correlation. The fragment didn't do much for me and because there is so much good science backing it, I have to blame my diet. Although this level of dieting is unusual for me, since I had been overestimating my calorie needs by about 700 daily over the last 2 years or so, it was clearly insufficient for success with the Fragment.

This log should be a strong indication that the fragment doesn't work without a serious calorie deficit, no more, no less. I certainly felt it was doing SOMETHING but end-results proved disappointing for me.

Well, that's that for this log. I'mma go and post pictures of my FATASS self in my cutting cycle log. Those of you with courage will look at them and instantly understand why I was so eager to test this new great fatloss supplement. At least, gear + T3 + Clen + Diet + Cardio is a proven recipe, one that I know I can achieve decent results with.
 
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