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First Test Cycle

eatsleeplift

New member
Hey guys, i'll be starting a cycle soon and want a little help.

Cycle so far:

Testosterone Enanthate 10-12 weeks

PCT:

4-6 weeks Clomid @ 100mg/ED
4-6 weeks Nolva @ 20mg/ED
4 weeks Armidex @ .25mg/ED

How does this cycle and PCT look. I will be cutting the clomid down to 50 mg after first week. This is my first cycle ever. I've had gyno on one side naturally which makes me think I could get on the other side but I've had my one side removed so it wont be comin back. Should I run clomid, nolvadex, or arimidex during the cycle or will that effect my gains too much? Also should I be leaning towards 10 weeks or 12 weeks?
 
Actually after doing research I've concluded my cycle to be this:

Testosterone Enanthate 10-12 weeks (probably 10 weeks) @ 500 mg w/ Proviron @ 100 mgs daily for the entire cycle

Would this be a smarter choice than arimidex, and should it be run throughout the cycle like I've put? Are the doses good for proviron? What would be a good PCT for this, trying to avoid Clomid now due to the vision problems?
 
I would just run a little nolvadex the whole way if you were worried. Arimidex is probably a little much for that much test and my hinder your gains a touch. Not sure why the proviron. The way i used to run clomid was this, i would start 100mg about 5 days before the "typical" method, i would run it until i started getting morning wood for a few days in a row, then i would drop to 50 and run for 1 or 2 weeks depending on the drugs used.
 
So nolvadex should be the smartest to run during the cycle and then for pct? Why not arimidex, it couldn't be that big a difference between the gains could it. So for the cycle should I be using arimidex, nolva, proviron, clomid (preferrably not due to the vision problems that can occur). How does the PCT look, this is my first cycle so it needs a little tweaking. I hope to get this on saturday night and do first injection on sunday which is the day before I lift incase any soreness occurs, obviously i won't be injecting into the muscle group thats goin to be worked. Is there any use for HCG in this cycle?
 
ok, lots to go over here.

personally i would just run Nolva for PCT, but adding clomid wont hurt...if u want to do this, run it

Nolva 40/20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

running arimidex is up to u. it will minimize estrogen conversion/bloat. if u are prone to gyno then u should run it. it should not hinder gains

HCG is not needed for this cycle

running nolva on cycle WILL hinder gains and should only be taken on cycle if u develope sensitive nipples or a lump
 
I seriously doubt running 20mg of nolva is going to hinder gains all that much. Arimidex on the other hand will. A little water is not that much of a bad thing. Also how does nolva reduce bloat? And how does nolva reduce gains?
 
I would run Clomid - no question. Clomid will help you restart HPTA quickly, which is a good thing. Run it at 100 mg/day for 2 or 3 days then drop it down to 50 for a couple weeks and then you can taper it to 25 for the last week.

As for the Nolva, use during PCT if you are prone to or are just scared of gyno. Run it at 10 mg/day at the most unless things get lumpy.

Arimidex is a good choice for an on-cycle aromatase inhibitor but use low doses. As little as 0.25 mg EOD may be all you need.
 
Usf97j4x4 said:
I would run Clomid - no question. Clomid will help you restart HPTA quickly, which is a good thing. Run it at 100 mg/day for 2 or 3 days then drop it down to 50 for a couple weeks and then you can taper it to 25 for the last week.

As for the Nolva, use during PCT if you are prone to or are just scared of gyno. Run it at 10 mg/day at the most unless things get lumpy.

Arimidex is a good choice for an on-cycle aromatase inhibitor but use low doses. As little as 0.25 mg EOD may be all you need.
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That dose of adex is good, I just don't like to lose gains if i don't have to by losing a little of the good ole bloat. I know the theories behind nolva limiting gains, but i am not sure if i ever bought it. But you are correct with the clomid, why anyone would run just nolva when coming off steroids is beyond me. I am also not sure if that amount of adex will be sufficient if someone is seriously gyno prone. I honestly don't remember.
 
nosnmiveins said:
ok, lots to go over here.

personally i would just run Nolva for PCT, but adding clomid wont hurt...if u want to do this, run it

Nolva 40/20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

running arimidex is up to u. it will minimize estrogen conversion/bloat. if u are prone to gyno then u should run it. it should not hinder gains

HCG is not needed for this cycle

running nolva on cycle WILL hinder gains and should only be taken on cycle if u develope sensitive nipples or a lump
Click to expand...

For this 5 week PCT you have, shouldn't I start at 100 a week for clomid then reduce to 50 for the last 3 and should nolva be used for an extra week when clomid is done? Also what are the odds of vision problems with clomid, I wear contacts and I don't wanna be driving my motorcycle and not being able to see and whatnot. And If I use Arimidex 0.25 mg a day, do I continue to use this dose all the way though PCT as well? I've been told to use nolva and not arimidex then i've been told to do the opposite. I just don't want surgery again, because it stopped me from lifting for a while and I lost quite a bit, but I figure that if my left side was prone to gyno I would've got it at the same time as my right side.
 
This is going to be long. I have run test with and without arimidex. I prefer without but i have never gone over 600mg a week. Guys who run a gram plus i am sure begin to need it at some point. I definately noticed a reduction in gains with the adex, the water is going to be responsible for some of the strength, and if you can lift heavier you can build more muscle. Pretty basic stuff. As far as the kid above stateing nolva reduces blaot, nolva binds to estrogen receptors and have a stronger affinity for them than estrogen. Therefore the estrogen has nothing to bind to and cause gyno. It does not stop the aromitization process like adex does. Therefore it should not have an effect on how much you bloat. Also the reduction in gains that they are talking about from nolva has to do with a reduction in IGF-1 due to the action in the liver i belive. This is basically a textbook nonsense answer, it does not hold true. I can also probably dig up a study showing that running adex during pct could possibly cause areterial lesions due to too low estrogen (done in rats), just something to think about. I never understood the adex part of pct as their probably is not much aromitization taking place as your natural test is low. As far as pct is concerned, if i had to recommend something now, i would recommend clomid like i described followed by diesel test hardcore. If the numbers i have read and been told by people are correct from diesel test hardcore it should help combat a drop in test from the stopping of clomid. I have also read studies where clomid was administerd for 6 weeks at 100mg and got test back up, but as soon as it was stopped the test levels dropped. IMO a test booster like diesel test would be excellent for this type of thing. I really need to dig up alot of these studies and post them.
 
jcp2 said:
As far as the kid above stateing nolva reduces blaot, nolva binds to estrogen receptors and have a stronger affinity for them than estrogen. Therefore the estrogen has nothing to bind to and cause gyno. It does not stop the aromitization process like adex does. Therefore it should not have an effect on how much you bloat.
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if ur talking to me here, nowhere did i state that nolva prevents/reduces bloat
 
So most people will agree that Nolva should be used during the cycle over arimidex? And if Nolva is used throughout the cycle what doses should it be at? Then during PCT I should continue using Nolva even tho it will be for the 10 week test cycle and the 4-5 week PCT. Now is there any place for arimidex in my cycle at all. I think I'll try clomid at 50 grams a day for 4 weeks or until vision problems occur.
 
eatsleeplift said:
So most people will agree that Nolva should be used during the cycle over arimidex? And if Nolva is used throughout the cycle what doses should it be at? Then during PCT I should continue using Nolva even tho it will be for the 10 week test cycle and the 4-5 week PCT. Now is there any place for arimidex in my cycle at all. I think I'll try clomid at 50 grams a day for 4 weeks or until vision problems occur.
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No. Go with a-dex on cycle. It's likely you wont even need it with 500mg's/week but its dependent. How much do you weigh?

I would reiterate exactly what the below gentlemen said:

Usf97j4x4 said:
I would run Clomid - no question. Clomid will help you restart HPTA quickly, which is a good thing. Run it at 100 mg/day for 2 or 3 days then drop it down to 50 for a couple weeks and then you can taper it to 25 for the last week.

As for the Nolva, use during PCT if you are prone to or are just scared of gyno. Run it at 10 mg/day at the most unless things get lumpy.

Arimidex is a good choice for an on-cycle aromatase inhibitor but use low doses. As little as 0.25 mg EOD may be all you need.
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I wouldnt worry too much about the vision sides. They should reside after you cease using the drug. As an example 36 men, 25mg's/day, for 4-6 weeks, NO SIDE effects reported:

Invalid Link Removed
 
two close friends of mine have been in the pro body building circuit for a while. they both have told me that test only cycles of 10-12 weeks are just fine with no estrogen regulators during cycle. but if you start cycling for longer than 15 weeks the recommend running arimidex at .5mg eod during cycle. if i were you id run it like this....
12 weeks of test at 500 mg a week
pct
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25

i would also use some ZMA during pct
 
two close friends of mine have been in the pro body building circuit for a while. they both have told me that test only cycles of 10-12 weeks are just fine with no estrogen regulators during cycle. but if you start cycling for longer than 15 weeks the recommend running arimidex at .5mg eod during cycle. if i were you id run it like this....
12 weeks of test at 500 mg a week
pct
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25

i would also use some ZMA during pct
 
sportsbro21 said:
two close friends of mine have been in the pro body building circuit for a while. they both have told me that test only cycles of 10-12 weeks are just fine with no estrogen regulators during cycle. but if you start cycling for longer than 15 weeks the recommend running arimidex at .5mg eod during cycle. if i were you id run it like this....
12 weeks of test at 500 mg a week
pct
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25

i would also use some ZMA during pct
Click to expand...

So how does this look then:

Cycle:
Testosterone Enanthate 500 mg/week (or 250 mg/bi-weekly) with arimidex 0.5 mg every other day (or 0.25 mg a day)

PCT:
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25

I like the PCT you've mentioned, but are those clomid doses sufficient, because I guess I can't avoid clomid and I'll hope I do not get vision problems. Also just 4 weeks should be good for a first cycle that is short and is just test. enth. Everwheres I've read it was reccomended that higher doses of clomid, but everyone tends to agree that nolva should be at 40 then tapered to 20. No arimidex during PCT correct? Thanks everyone for the help.
 
jcp2 said:
I seriously doubt running 20mg of nolva is going to hinder gains all that much. Arimidex on the other hand will. A little water is not that much of a bad thing. Also how does nolva reduce bloat? And how does nolva reduce gains?
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You have that backwards, arim will not hinder gains and nolva will.Def use the arim on cycle and you might not even need it at all.
 
hman85 said:
You have that backwards, arim will not hinder gains and nolva will.Def use the arim on cycle and you might not even need it at all.
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No i don't. I have done it. Adex definately will hinder strength on a test cycle, therefore most likely hinder gains. I have run them with and without. I am not telling you what i have read, i am telling you what i have done. As far as the nolva, if i remember correctly the decrease in IGF-1 was kind of off point. i am going to look it up tonight, i may be wrong but i don't think so.
 
Nolvadex causes a lowering of liver produced IGF-1, maybe. As i went back to read about this, i guess it was discussed quite a bit around 2002. No studies to back any of this up i don't think, and it is highly questioned weather liver produced IGF-1 have anything to do with muscle growth. This seems to have something to do with a study done on women. If anyone has any real info please share.
 
jcp2 said:
No i don't. I have done it. Adex definately will hinder strength on a test cycle, therefore most likely hinder gains. I have run them with and without. I am not telling you what i have read, i am telling you what i have done. As far as the nolva, if i remember correctly the decrease in IGF-1 was kind of off point. i am going to look it up tonight, i may be wrong but i don't think so.
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I have to agree that you have this backwards. It's pretty widely accepted to be honest.
 
Does everyone else approve of this cycle too? If most people will agree that this is good, I will pick up shortly and start in a week or to!!! I'm extremely excited, and thanks everyone for the help this board is very very helpful, much better than most out there. Thanks guys!
 
I just read it earlier today in MD so go with what your saying but I will trust a pro over you.
 
What i am saying concerning adex is not involving the drug itself it is a byproduct of what it is doing. The drug has no mechanism that is going to negate gains. What i am saying is that when you dry yourself out during a low dose test cycle the gains are not going to be as good. The extra strength gained from a little estrogen is going to possibly translate into a little more muscle gained. As far as the nolva, it is derived from data having nothing to do with steroid use and involveing liver produced IGF-1. If you don't beleive me that is fine, i am just putting up my pespective. The Nolvadex issue i would love to see some data on, if someone can produce it.
 
This wasn't md it a was a pro speaking in md. Your saying if you take to much of it , it will hinder strength because of dryness. That is probably true but we weren't talking about taking too much were we? We were talking about taking the lowest dose possible to do the job.
 
hman85 said:
This wasn't md it a was a pro speaking in md. Your saying if you take to much of it , it will hinder strength because of dryness. That is probably true but we weren't talking about taking too much were we? We were talking about taking the lowest dose possible to do the job.
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500mg of test is not much in regards to water retention. I do agree with you if you are taking a large amount of test i would definately stick with Adex. You can always keep adex on hand and if you blaot like a balloon it will work very quickly. Do you really think a pro knows what it is like to take 500mg of test, lol. They take it because they are on a couple grams and they dont' want their BP to be through the roof.


The Nolva info comes from female cancer patient studies. At least that is what i can find regarding the "theory". If anyone else has some other info please share it.
 
jcp2 said:
500mg of test is not much in regards to water retention. I do agree with you if you are taking a large amount of test i would definately stick with Adex. You can always keep adex on hand and if you blaot like a balloon it will work very quickly. Do you really think a pro knows what it is like to take 500mg of test, lol. They take it because they are on a couple grams and they dont' want their BP to be through the roof.


The Nolva info comes from female cancer patient studies. At least that is what i can find regarding the "theory". If anyone else has some other info please share it.
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I'd also like to see this data suggesting that Adex doesn't reduce gains while nolva does.

Adex at .5mg eod will stop a ton of the test conversion on 500mg per week.

Nolva just keeps it off the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue - it doesn't reduce estrogen - estrogen is still being converted from the exogenous test.

And when has it become widely accepted that Adex at .5mg eod while on 500mg of test won't hinder gains while 10mg of nolva will?

I don't get the logic here......
 
Stupes said:
I'd also like to see this data suggesting that Adex doesn't reduce gains while nolva does.

Adex at .5mg eod will stop a ton of the test conversion on 500mg per week.

Nolva just keeps it off the estrogen receptors in the breast tissue - it doesn't reduce estrogen - estrogen is still being converted from the exogenous test.

And when has it become widely accepted that Adex at .5mg eod while on 500mg of test won't hinder gains while 10mg of nolva will?

I don't get the logic here......
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Where are you getting this, everything that I have seen says the opposite. Whatever we could fight ABOUT THIS ALL DAY. peace out
 
hman85 said:
Where are you getting this, everything that I have seen says the opposite. Whatever we could fight ABOUT THIS ALL DAY. peace out
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But what i am asking is what have you seen. Is it just people talking? I am telling you where the theory came from, it came from women with cancer and nolvadex and a reduction in liver produced IGF-1. Trust me i would not lie to any of you. If i show you a study that says anavar administered to cirrosis patients helped liver function would you take it to combat high liver enzymes while on cycle, no. Because the context is so out of whack it doesn't correlate very well.
 
Haha, does anyone else approve of the cycle and post cycle therapy? Want to make sure I have the cycle and doses written on paper so I can buy everything I need for the cycle. The cycle looks like this from the help I've received so far:

Cycle:
Testosterone Enanthate 500 mg/week (or 250 mg/bi-weekly) with arimidex 0.5 mg every other day (or 0.25 mg a day)

PCT:
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25
 
eatsleeplift said:
Haha, does anyone else approve of the cycle and post cycle therapy? Want to make sure I have the cycle and doses written on paper so I can buy everything I need for the cycle. The cycle looks like this from the help I've received so far:

Cycle:
Testosterone Enanthate 500 mg/week (or 250 mg/bi-weekly) with arimidex 0.5 mg every other day (or 0.25 mg a day)

PCT:
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25
Click to expand...


looks good, give it hell!
 
eatsleeplift said:
Haha, does anyone else approve of the cycle and post cycle therapy? Want to make sure I have the cycle and doses written on paper so I can buy everything I need for the cycle. The cycle looks like this from the help I've received so far:

Cycle:
Testosterone Enanthate 500 mg/week (or 250 mg/bi-weekly) with arimidex 0.5 mg every other day (or 0.25 mg a day)

PCT:
nolva 40/40/20/20
clomid 50/50/ 25/25
Click to expand...

I wouldn't use the Adex because you are only concerned about gyno - so keep the nolva on hand and if you start feeling sensitive then take 40mg for a few days and then drop it to 20mg or 10mg when the gyno concern goes away.

Adex will take out all estro side effects which will keep you looking lean but will decrease strength and henceforth potential gains - as was stated earlier in the thread.

PCT will look the same as you have it.
 
PURPOSE: To determine whether low-dose tamoxifen and fenretinide have a synergistic effect on surrogate biomarkers, including circulating insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I) and mammographic density, in premenopausal women at risk for breast cancer and to study drug safety. PATIENTS AND METHODS: Premenopausal women (n = 235) were randomly assigned in a double-blind four-arm trial to receive tamoxifen 5 mg/d, fenretinide 200 mg/d, both agents, or placebo for 2 years. The present analysis refers to preliminary data on safety, IGF-I, and breast cancer events. RESULTS: Patients were included if they had an excised ductal carcinoma-in-situ (57%), lobular carcinoma-in-situ (13%), minimal invasive breast cancer (7%), or a 5-year Gail risk > or = 1.3% (23%). After a median follow-up of 40 months, there was a reduction of 13%, 2%, 20%, and 1% in IGF-I levels for patients on tamoxifen, fenretinide, tamoxifen plus fenretinide, and placebo, respectively. Recruitment was stopped based on the lack of an interaction on IGF-I levels, which was a primary end point for the study. Thirty-six patients have dropped out of the study, 17 because of adverse events and 19 for various other reasons. One stage I endometrial cancer occurred in a patient on fenretinide, and one optic nerve ischemia and one deep venous thrombosis occurred on tamoxifen. There was no difference in menopausal symptoms, endometrial thickness, polyps, or ovarian cysts among treatment arms. To date, 24 breast cancers have been observed, without differences among arms. CONCLUSION: The combination of low-dose tamoxifen and fenretinide is safe but not synergistic in lowering IGF-I levels in premenopausal women. The clinical implications require further follow-up.
You can see IGF-1 was lowered in woman using Nolvadex. Kind of reach to say nolva will diminish gains on cycle wouldn't you think. I can't seem to find much on pubmed that looks like "bodybuilders gains tested on 1gram of test with and without tamoxifen"
 
Stupes said:
I wouldn't use the Adex because you are only concerned about gyno - so keep the nolva on hand and if you start feeling sensitive then take 40mg for a few days and then drop it to 20mg or 10mg when the gyno concern goes away.

Adex will take out all estro side effects which will keep you looking lean but will decrease strength and henceforth potential gains - as was stated earlier in the thread.

PCT will look the same as you have it.
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Yes but no one was really specific with the "loss" of gains. Are we talking about a 10 pound difference or a couple pound difference between takin a-dex on the cycle or not? And if A-dex is not required during the cycle due to a significant loss in gains, it shouldn't be included in PCT right?
 
BACKGROUND: Tamoxifen reduces the risk of breast cancer in women at high risk for the disease but increases the risk for endometrial tumors and venous thromboembolisms, possibly in a dose-dependent fashion. We compared the effects of tamoxifen at 1 mg/day and 5 mg/day with those of the standard dose of 20 mg/day on breast cancer proliferation using a surrogate endpoint marker (Ki-67 expression) and blood biomarkers associated with breast cancer, cardiovascular disease, and bone fracture risk. METHODS: We randomly assigned 120 women with estrogen receptor (ER)-positive breast cancer to tamoxifen at 1, 5, or 20 mg/day for 4 weeks. Expression of the tumor proliferation marker Ki-67 and of biomarkers of breast cancer (insulin-like growth factor-I, sex hormone-binding globulin), cardiovascular disease (cholesterol, triglycerides, ultrasensitive C-reactive protein, fibrinogen, antithrombin-III), and bone fracture (type I collagen C-telopeptide) risk were determined before (baseline) and after treatment. All levels were compared with those in two nonrandomized control groups (34 women with ER-negative breast cancer and 29 additional women with ER-positive breast cancer). Data were analyzed by analysis of covariance. All statistical tests were two-sided. RESULTS: Expression of Ki-67 decreased in all three tamoxifen groups, with no difference in the magnitude of reduction among groups (P =.81). Relative to baseline, Ki-67 expression decreased by a median of 15.0% (95% confidence interval = 0.0% to 24.1%) among the tamoxifen groups but increased by 12.8% (95% confidence interval = 0.0% to 19.6%) among the nonrandomized control groups. Several blood biomarkers showed dose-response relationships with tamoxifen, including decreased insulin-like growth factor-I, increased sex hormone-binding globulin, and decreased low-density lipoprotein-cholesterol, ultrasensitive C-reactive protein, fibrinogen, and antithrombin-III levels. CONCLUSIONS: The effects on Ki-67 expression of lower doses of tamoxifen were comparable to those achieved with the standard dose, although the effects on blood biomarkers were variable. The effects of lower doses of tamoxifen should be assessed further in randomized trials.

We are making some pretty big leeps here.
 
eatsleeplift said:
Yes but no one was really specific with the "loss" of gains. Are we talking about a 10 pound difference or a couple pound difference between takin a-dex on the cycle or not? And if A-dex is not required during the cycle due to a significant loss in gains, it shouldn't be included in PCT right?
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This thread probably got a little out of hand. Like i said before i gave you my opinion based on my own personal experiences with the stuff and the reading i have done. I think you would be happier without the adex, the reason i told you to start a low dose nolva regiment from the get go is because you have a history with gyno. I have been reading since before their was an adex. People at that time used nolva from the get go if they new they were gyno prone, why wait for the inevitable. But like was said above the standard dosing was 40mg upon itchy nipps and 10-20 after the symptoms went away through pct. In the end it is your decision, take the info you got, and decide what you want to do, i am just trying to make sure the proper facts are layed out for you.
 
At this point, I don't know who's arguing what but you will not see a significant loss of gains using arimidex at a reasonable dosage. Use as needed to combat excess water retention and estrogen sides , which shouldn't be severe at 500mg anyway, so the idea that you will lose gains because of strength lost by getting rid of water retention is crap. This is getting way over thought. If someone tells you that you will notice a difference in gains between running 500mgs test alone and 500mgs with say .5mg adex eod they are full of ****(no offense). Water retention isn't the only thing responsible for strength or gains anyway.
 
jarhead said:
I have to agree that you have this backwards. It's pretty widely accepted to be honest.
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Well see this is one of the things this thread is about. You stated that i had it backwards, meaning that adex will not hinder gains, and nolva will. You also go on to say it is widely accepted, i want to know who "widely accepted" it because that is new to me. Also people don't even mention the mechanisms that are causing these accepted theories, so that tells me people are just going around repeating what they have heard over and over and over. Excuse me if i seem a little defensive, but it seems if i don't have 5000 posts i cannot be taken seriously, i am trying to help the guy, i have ran the test he is talking about a few times, with and without adex and i gave him my peronsal experiences. I think adex sucks, i have never gotten to a test dose where i felt it was needed, the most i ever ran was 600mg. I assume people who run upwards of a gram plus probably use it, and wisely so. That is also probably why pros recommend it, most of them are not runnning 500mg, most of the low level competitors at my gym are running more than that.

I am trying to show you guys where the nolva theory came from, that is why i posted the studies. Like i said if anyone has anything to show me that nolva does decrease gains i am all ears.
 
jcp2 said:
Well see this is one of the things this thread is about. You stated that i had it backwards, meaning that adex will not hinder gains, and nolva will. You also go on to say it is widely accepted, i want to know who "widely accepted" it because that is new to me. Also people don't even mention the mechanisms that are causing these accepted theories, so that tells me people are just going around repeating what they have heard over and over and over. Excuse me if i seem a little defensive, but it seems if i don't have 5000 posts i cannot be taken seriously, i am trying to help the guy, i have ran the test he is talking about a few times, with and without adex and i gave him my peronsal experiences. I think adex sucks, i have never gotten to a test dose where i felt it was needed, the most i ever ran was 600mg. I assume people who run upwards of a gram plus probably use it, and wisely so. That is also probably why pros recommend it, most of them are not runnning 500mg, most of the low level competitors at my gym are running more than that.

I am trying to show you guys where the nolva theory came from, that is why i posted the studies. Like i said if anyone has anything to show me that nolva does decrease gains i am all ears.
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What he said.....
 
jcp2 said:
Well see this is one of the things this thread is about. You stated that i had it backwards, meaning that adex will not hinder gains, and nolva will. You also go on to say it is widely accepted, i want to know who "widely accepted" it because that is new to me. Also people don't even mention the mechanisms that are causing these accepted theories, so that tells me people are just going around repeating what they have heard over and over and over. Excuse me if i seem a little defensive, but it seems if i don't have 5000 posts i cannot be taken seriously, i am trying to help the guy, i have ran the test he is talking about a few times, with and without adex and i gave him my peronsal experiences. I think adex sucks, i have never gotten to a test dose where i felt it was needed, the most i ever ran was 600mg. I assume people who run upwards of a gram plus probably use it, and wisely so. That is also probably why pros recommend it, most of them are not runnning 500mg, most of the low level competitors at my gym are running more than that.

I am trying to show you guys where the nolva theory came from, that is why i posted the studies. Like i said if anyone has anything to show me that nolva does decrease gains i am all ears.
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And my point is that if you're going to say that adex will hinder gains, post some of THOSE studies. You have said that it sucks and will reduce gains, but yet you said have never ran over 600mgs and have never ran a test dose where you felt it was needed. So if that is your personal experience with it, is that really qualified reason enough to say don't use it? I also agree that at a 500 mgs, it's probably not needed. But everyone reacts differently to everything. And used judiciously, I don't believe or have ever experienced adex hurting gains. You posted studies that show nolva reduced igf in women and basically wrote the whole idea off as a stretch in applying those results in women to men. That doesn't prove anything. I have seen other studies than the ones you posted, though I don't have them at my finger tips. The reason I said "widely accepted" was that 99.9 % of people who use aas that I know, talked to, or have ever read about will use something like adex during cycle and shy away from nolva during unless absolutely needed for gyno. It will do nothing to reduce water retention and most sides other than gyno during cycle. And it has been reported as diminishing gains by many, myself having experienced the same. You can look all you want for studies but true human studies are few and far between with anything we use. Trying to understand how compounds work and relating personal experience is pretty much all we've got. I guess besides my own experience, the reason I feel this way about these 2 drugs is that while I have seen studies(no matter how conclusive or inconclusive) that suggests nolva reduces gains or igf, i have yet to see anything that says adex or other ai's WILL. Btw-None of this is personal and I don't care about post count and neither do most guys around here. I understand your point about prolonging the spread of brotelligence. You're at least reading studies and making your own logical decisions which is more than most do. That's pretty much what all of us have to do. I'm certainly no expert.
 
jarhead said:
At this point, I don't know who's arguing what but you will not see a significant loss of gains using arimidex at a reasonable dosage. Use as needed to combat excess water retention and estrogen sides , which shouldn't be severe at 500mg anyway, so the idea that you will lose gains because of strength lost by getting rid of water retention is crap. This is getting way over thought. If someone tells you that you will notice a difference in gains between running 500mgs test alone and 500mgs with say .5mg adex eod they are full of ****(no offense). Water retention isn't the only thing responsible for strength or gains anyway.
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Thank you! When people say that it will hinder gains when it is ran during the cycle, I was thinkign that it couldn't be significant, but some guys will do anything for the extra 1 or 2 pounds. But I'd rather have a less bloat and more lean build from the cycle anyway so I think Adex is the way to go. Thanks everyone.
 
eatsleeplift said:
Thank you! When people say that it will hinder gains when it is ran during the cycle, I was thinkign that it couldn't be significant, but some guys will do anything for the extra 1 or 2 pounds. But I'd rather have a less bloat and more lean build from the cycle anyway so I think Adex is the way to go. Thanks everyone.
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Don't go with.25 ed do it .25 eod if needed. imo. Good luck man let us know how you do.
 
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