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First Osta cycle

sarmy,

when you start your next sarm cycle are you going to stick with the same brand?
 
I got me some Nolvadex, will finish my cycle next week, not taking the chance...hoping to bounce back fast, because osta makes you feel so good to the point of (thinking) your testersone is over the roof!
 
The 219 - 905 is just the normal range right? And it's showing it at 125 now? Which would be below average?

What was your total free test before the cycle ?

I'm still kinda learning how to read this stuff myself
 
UncleSarm said:
The post-cycle / pre-PCT blood results came in today.

These are the results of the blood taken on Feb 4, around midday:
Code: 
TESTOSTERONE                   4.3     nmol/L       7.6 - 31.4         (124  ng/dl    219 - 905.4)
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB       14      nmol/L       16 - 55
FSH                            4.2     IU/mL        1.5-12.4
LH                             4.0     IU/mL        1.7-8.6

TESTOSTERONE/SHBG Ratio        30.7    24-104
Lab note: Your testosterone / SHBG Ratio indicates that your available testosterone is within the normal range albeit at the lower end.

We can see that the testosterone is quite low, although I feel totally fine. No lethargy, no loss of libido. I think this is perfect evidence that your levels can be quite low but you might feel totally perfect. This is also evidence that Osta is suppressive.

For LH and FSH, unfortunately I do not have baseline values from prior to the cycle, but, roughly, LH is in the middle of the range, and FSH is closer to the 1/3 mark of the range.

What I find interesting and quite honestly I don't understand it, is the comment from the lab: "your available testosterone is within the normal range". The ratio may be normal, but both testosterone and SHBG are below lower limits. Anyone care to weigh in on this?
Click to expand...

What was your Test before you did any Osta
 
You feel fine because test/shbg ratio is ok. Probably the same with test/e2 ratio. Given that LH is also fine, i would rather leave body to regulate on its own than use nolva/clomid as they also have some side effects. They are not needed if LH is ok.
 
UncleSarm said:
The post-cycle / pre-PCT blood results came in today.

These are the results of the blood taken on Feb 4, around midday:
Code: 
TESTOSTERONE                   4.3     nmol/L       7.6 - 31.4         (124  ng/dl    219 - 905.4)
SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOB       14      nmol/L       16 - 55
FSH                            4.2     IU/mL        1.5-12.4
LH                             4.0     IU/mL        1.7-8.6

TESTOSTERONE/SHBG Ratio        30.7    24-104
Lab note: Your testosterone / SHBG Ratio indicates that your available testosterone is within the normal range albeit at the lower end.

We can see that the testosterone is quite low, although I feel totally fine. No lethargy, no loss of libido. I think this is perfect evidence that your levels can be quite low but you might feel totally perfect. This is also evidence that Osta is suppressive.

For LH and FSH, unfortunately I do not have baseline values from prior to the cycle, but, roughly, LH is in the middle of the range, and FSH is closer to the 1/3 mark of the range.

What I find interesting and quite honestly I don't understand it, is the comment from the lab: "your available testosterone is within the normal range". The ratio may be normal, but both testosterone and SHBG are below lower limits. Anyone care to weigh in on this?
Click to expand...

Values like expected:
- testosterone withing normal range (probably in the upper part, but as long as it's in the range, there you are in good medical conditions). This value is decreased for sure, because Ostarine mimics the testosterone on the AR.
- SHBG minimal below range. Expected too. What does lower SHBG and lower test mean? It means that the free testosterone value remains normals (also regarding to the lab note).
- FSH and LH absolutely normal. If you would have used AAS, they would be <0.01. You can see that Ostarine probably has a suppresive effect (I saw until now two times bloodvalues with higher axis values than in the pre-blood). If we assume, that your values decreased - which are still within the normal medical range - there would be no need for a SERM. This is also the evidence, why several persons are not using SERM after a "lighter" cycle, with Ostarine for example. Don't want to say it every time, but SERM are the opposite of being healthy. If you want still use a SERM, a second generation SERM.

Thank you for sharing.
 
sanmarino said:
Values like expected:
- testosterone withing normal range (probably in the upper part, but as long as it's in the range, there you are in good medical conditions). This value is decreased for sure, because Ostarine mimics the testosterone on the AR.
- SHBG minimal below range. Expected too. What does lower SHBG and lower test mean? It means that the free testosterone value remains normals (also regarding to the lab note).
- FSH and LH absolutely normal. If you would have used AAS, they would be <0.01. You can see that Ostarine probably has a suppresive effect (I saw until now two times bloodvalues with higher axis values than in the pre-blood). If we assume, that your values decreased - which are still within the normal medical range - there would be no need for a SERM. This is also the evidence, why several persons are not using SERM after a "lighter" cycle, with Ostarine for example. Don't want to say it every time, but SERM are the opposite of being healthy. If you want still use a SERM, a second generation SERM.

Thank you for sharing.
Click to expand...

Exactly my thoughts as far as lack of surprise on the suppression front... Those levels could feel very different for different people though depending on their natural setpoint. As said, it is promising to see that the FSH and LH are not horribly low, leading one to believe that recovery should be easier... While that "should" be the case, we all know that to each his own.

Great share UncleSarm
 
smith_69 said:
sarmy,

when you start your next sarm cycle are you going to stick with the same brand?
Click to expand...

I have enough Osta Elite from Focused Nutrition for another 7 week cycle at 25mg. So either run that or I think I might try to find some OL Ostar1ne for the next cycle and try it at a lower dose. Since I saw my blood results, I am not thinking about the next cycle. With PCT and time off, we're laking about 3.5 months away. I'm following the advice you gave me on the cycle and trying not to get greedy.
 
bashar said:
I got me some Nolvadex, will finish my cycle next week, not taking the chance...hoping to bounce back fast, because osta makes you feel so good to the point of (thinking) your testersone is over the roof!
Click to expand...


The purpose of the Nolva is to bring up your LH levels. Keep in mind that no PCT will return you to baseline. PCT just jumpstarts the process of getting back to normal. As AAS just shatters your LH levels, Nolva gets the process started of getting LH production back on track but , because my levels are already within normal range, I don't need a jumpstart.
 
dredmentia said:
The 219 - 905 is just the normal range right? And it's showing it at 125 now? Which would be below average?

What was your total free test before the cycle ?

I'm still kinda learning how to read this stuff myself
Click to expand...

I am showing the values in the two main scales used: 7.6 - 31.4 nmol/L and 219 - 905.4 ng/dl. Some places use one scale, some use a different, so this makes easier for anyone looking at it to quickly read the values.
So in the 7.6 - 31.4 nmol/L scale, I went from 19.3 nmol/L pre-cycle to 4.3 nmol/L pre-PCT.
In the 219 - 905.4 ng/dl scale, I went from 557 ng/dl pre-cycle to 124 ng/dl pre-PCT.

I have copied the blood values to the bottom of the first post in this thread, so there you can see all of the pre-cycle and pre-PCT values side by side for easier comparison.
 
sanmarino said:
Values like expected:
- testosterone withing normal range (probably in the upper part, but as long as it's in the range, there you are in good medical conditions). This value is decreased for sure, because Ostarine mimics the testosterone on the AR.
- SHBG minimal below range. Expected too. What does lower SHBG and lower test mean? It means that the free testosterone value remains normals (also regarding to the lab note).
- FSH and LH absolutely normal. If you would have used AAS, they would be <0.01. You can see that Ostarine probably has a suppresive effect (I saw until now two times bloodvalues with higher axis values than in the pre-blood). If we assume, that your values decreased - which are still within the normal medical range - there would be no need for a SERM. This is also the evidence, why several persons are not using SERM after a "lighter" cycle, with Ostarine for example. Don't want to say it every time, but SERM are the opposite of being healthy. If you want still use a SERM, a second generation SERM.

Thank you for sharing.
Click to expand...

Wow, thank you sanmarino for weighing in with this analysis on my bloods results. The testosterone value is actually below the minimum value. Does that changes any of your comments?
I had kind of figured that with LH and FSH being within normal range, that a SERM would not be as useful, like you said, as if I had used AAS. My understanding is that AAS just shatters your LH and FSH values and the SERM jumpstarts your LH production, which in turn jumpstarts the testes. Correct me here is my understanding is wrong.
From these values I have decided to stay with an OTC PCT, using Rebirth as a natural SERM-like product, and bulbine and DAA as test boosters. I am planning to take this for a full 4 weeks. Is this your recommendation also?
 
bighulksmash said:
damn bro my test was 43 ng/dl after 9 months of steroids and now I been off for 2 months and just under 2 weeks using pharm grade clomid has brought my test up to 823 ng/dl .... get some pharm grade serm and run it for 6 weeks ,
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As Srekal34 and sanmarino mentioned, they might be lowered (unfortunately I don't have pre-cycle baseline values to compare with) but my LH and FSH levels are still within normal range, so Nolva may not really be that beneficial for me, compared to its sides. AAS on the other hand will totally shatter your LH levels, so Nolva is used to jumpstart LH production to in turn jumpstart test production in the testes. In my case I don't need to jumpstart LH production.
 
UncleSarm said:
As Srekal34 and sanmarino mentioned, they might be lowered (unfortunately I don't have pre-cycle baseline values to compare with) but my LH and FSH levels are still within normal range, so Nolva may not really be that beneficial for me, compared to its sides. AAS on the other hand will totally shatter your LH levels, so Nolva is used to jumpstart LH production to in turn jumpstart test production in the testes. In my case I don't need to jumpstart LH production.
Click to expand...

Agreed, they are correct. Good luck and I hope everything works out for you. Also my lab measures in nanograms per deciliter so when I see your readings I was like whoa wait a minute but now that I realize your readings are a little bit different than mine the translation of the numbers makes sense.
 
bighulksmash said:
Agreed, they are correct. Good luck and I hope everything works out for you. Also my lab measures in nanograms per deciliter so when I see your readings I was like whoa wait a minute but now that I realize your readings are a little bit different than mine the translation of the numbers makes sense.
Click to expand...

I tried to show both values. The first set in nmol/L is the lab's units, the values in ng/dl are from an online conversion tool. I didn't think that maybe it wasn't that clear. Thanks for calling this out. I will add a note on the first post indicating this, so it's more understandable.
 
UncleSarm said:
I tried to show both values. The first set in nmol/L is the lab's units, the values in ng/dl are from an online conversion tool. I didn't think that maybe it wasn't that clear. Thanks for calling this out. I will add a note on the first post indicating this, so it's more understandable.
Click to expand...

iam just glad your on the track to recovery ... Man once u get back its like heaven ... I been up and down thats why Iam taking a year off . if things go well I may stay natty for awhile.
 
Which brand Bulbine you use? I was under the impression it shouldn't be ran higher than 700 mg a day.. Too much would cause opposite effects..
 
bighulksmash said:
iam just glad your on the track to recovery ... Man once u get back its like heaven ... I been up and down thats why Iam taking a year off . if things go well I may stay natty for awhile.
Click to expand...

youll be back-

muuuuhaaaaaa

just kidding
stay natty
 
bighulksmash said:
Somebody would literally shoot me if I listed the stuff that I gave away for free . I decided to go natural , lol there was so much quality cycles I had lined up.
Click to expand...

yes, i probably would have requested a firing squad

lim ate to the party as usual
lol
 
I'm wanting to run ostarine 5-6 weeks at 20/20/25/25/25/25, worried about pct though, when looking at the hard research of otc stuff non of it seems to stand up. Yet everyone seems to be advising that over clomid nolva ect. Can someone explain to me what happens when you come off ostarine then run clomid for example, after the pct is finished are you back to a fully functioning human :saeek: with test levels back to normal? Stats. A:21 W:93kg H:6"2' BF:11%
 
rhodessyyy said:
I'm wanting to run ostarine 5-6 weeks at 20/20/25/25/25/25, worried about pct though, when looking at the hard research of otc stuff non of it seems to stand up. Yet everyone seems to be advising that over clomid nolva ect. Can someone explain to me what happens when you come off ostarine then run clomid for example, after the pct is finished are you back to a fully functioning human :saeek: with test levels back to normal? Stats. A:21 W:93kg H:6"2' BF:11%
Click to expand...

Who is advertising that? You run clomid, nolva or tore to get your levels back to baseline quicker which should be a priority for anyone who wants to maximise their cycle gains and progressing following.
 
UncleSarm said:
Wow, thank you sanmarino for weighing in with this analysis on my bloods results. The testosterone value is actually below the minimum value. Does that changes any of your comments?
I had kind of figured that with LH and FSH being within normal range, that a SERM would not be as useful, like you said, as if I had used AAS. My understanding is that AAS just shatters your LH and FSH values and the SERM jumpstarts your LH production, which in turn jumpstarts the testes. Correct me here is my understanding is wrong.
From these values I have decided to stay with an OTC PCT, using Rebirth as a natural SERM-like product, and bulbine and DAA as test boosters. I am planning to take this for a full 4 weeks. Is this your recommendation also?
Click to expand...

No big deal, you are welcome.
Yes, I made a false statement (I wrote "in the upper part" instead of "in the lower part"), sorry. Was a long day :) But it doesn't change anything.
The ABSOLUTELY MAIN VALUES are LH and FSH. They are the "machines" which are responsible for your sexual hormones in your body and your fertility.
You probably heard of stories, in which bodybuilders on AAS can't "make" childrens. This is because of the low FSH-value, which will decrease to <0.01 while using AAS. Theoretically, you are temporarily infertile :D But there are always exceptions, Markus Rühl for example became a father recently. So, still use condoms :D

When you are using AAS, the "machines" are not used anymore for producing endogen sexual hormones because you are using exogenic substances. SARM in this case work on an other pathway (just one example: you can see, that the non-steroidal SARM are NOT based on the typical cholesterol skeleton. The one example is YK-11, which is a steroidal-SARM, which bases on the Nandrolone structure. Without testing it yet I'm sure - and there are some replies regarding this way - that YK-11 will influence your libido, analog to the so-called "Deca-d*ck". But this is another story.)

You are completely right. SERM have in man several other/additional functions than in woman (generally, SERM are used primarily for women). In men, it "boosts" the two very important values LH and FSH. It is not rare, that after a treatment of four to six weeks you can increase your LH from <0.01 to above the upper limit of the laboratory scale. But this is only temporary. This boost will lead to enourmous production in sexual hormones - in our case the testosterone is most important, because this little hormone holds/keeps our musculature.

Just another example: theoretically, you can do a cycle (AAS) and leave it without taking any SERM. What happens? As we know, the testosterone holds the musculature. But what happens, if you have the same values as a seven year old girl? You will loose rapidly (but not in 1-2 weeks, don't panic) your muscle mass (beside other conditions regarding to too low testosterone values) and you have done an expensive/unhealthy cycle for nothing.
This is also the main point, why PCT is used: to shorten the time (it can take several months until the LH is normal again without any help).

But the LH/FSH are in your case completely in range. In the studies you will also notice, that the probands recovered themselves in three weeks - without taking any SERM/herbal supplements, of course.
Only a side note: I did until now only one "real" PCT with Tamox, that was in a LGD, S-4, MK-677 and GW cycle. All the others (several Osta only, Osta + S-4, LGD only) I didn't used any SERM but other OTC supplements. Any my values returned every time to the pre-level.

OTC PCT is not a bad choice, you can use it. Also keep your eyes open on products containing Ksm-66 ashwagandha (very powerful), Acacetin, Amentoflavone and/or Coumaroyldopamine. DAA is helpful, too.
Four weeks is a good time range.
 
Btw, the new PES erase pro+ is loaded with ksm ashwagenda, planing on running that for pct, and alpha jym which also contains ashwagenda...plus DAA.
 
bashar said:
Guys I am confused now, does Nolva have negative side effects? To Nolva or not to Nolva!
Click to expand...

Yes, all Serms have sides, some nasty ones too. Toremifene seems to be less harsh. You could write a pm to sanmarino, he seems to be the most knowledgeable on that subject.
 
bashar said:
Guys I am confused now, does Nolva have negative side effects? To Nolva or not to Nolva!
Click to expand...

Nolvadex also has the ability to act as estrogen, specifically in the liver. This presents a benefit as estrogenic activity in the liver has been linked to healthier cholesterol levels.

It also has the ability to block the negative feedback that is brought on by estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary. As a result, this stimulates an enhanced release by the pituitary of (^as mentioned above^) Luteinizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Both LH and FSH are essential to natural testosterone production. Without LH and FSH, with an even stronger emphasis on LH, there is no natural testosterone production.

Nolvadex as well as the SERM Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) and the powerful peptide hormone HCG. By implementing this PCT plan, you will greatly stimulate natural testosterone production, speed up the recovery process and greatly protect your physique. Once the PCT plan comes to an end, contrary to popular belief your testosterone levels will not be resting at their normal high level state. Total recovery will still take a lot of time. However, a PCT plan that includes Nolvadex will ensure you have enough testosterone for proper bodily function while your levels continue to naturally rise.

You can make your decision based on this. We may say its not needed, its needed, don't ever do a cycle w/o, its a waste etc. YOU need to make this choice in the end.
 
One scary side effect of clomid is that it can cause irreversible vision damage , so I ruled it out completly. Time to do more research!
 
bashar said:
One scary side effect of clomid is that it can cause irreversible vision damage , so I ruled it out completly. Time to do more research!
Click to expand...

and what are the side effects of the cycle your doing? lol
 
smith_69 said:
Nolvadex also has the ability to act as estrogen, specifically in the liver. This presents a benefit as estrogenic activity in the liver has been linked to healthier cholesterol levels.

It also has the ability to block the negative feedback that is brought on by estrogen at the hypothalamus and pituitary. As a result, this stimulates an enhanced release by the pituitary of (^as mentioned above^) Luteinizing Hormone (LH) and Follicle Stimulating Hormone (FSH). Both LH and FSH are essential to natural testosterone production. Without LH and FSH, with an even stronger emphasis on LH, there is no natural testosterone production.

Nolvadex as well as the SERM Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate) and the powerful peptide hormone HCG. By implementing this PCT plan, you will greatly stimulate natural testosterone production, speed up the recovery process and greatly protect your physique. Once the PCT plan comes to an end, contrary to popular belief your testosterone levels will not be resting at their normal high level state. Total recovery will still take a lot of time. However, a PCT plan that includes Nolvadex will ensure you have enough testosterone for proper bodily function while your levels continue to naturally rise.

You can make your decision based on this. We may say its not needed, its needed, don't ever do a cycle w/o, its a waste etc. YOU need to make this choice in the end.
Click to expand...

This is true. I was dumb and did Epistane without proper PCT. I just did OTC and natty test booster.

On Epi I gained 18lbs (note, this was largely due to having an awesome diet where I was in a heavy surplus and tracked every macro.). I did however, lose about 2%bf. Once cycle was over, I ended up losing about 5lbs so I netted at 13lb gain (again, diet). I felt good. BUT, my strength went down and I made 0 progression (both strength and body appearance) for about 8 months.... I think after 8 months I finally started to recover.

Long story short, while I felt good, I wasnt good. Wasted about 8 months of lifting progression due to improper PCT. It's been a year since I finished Epi and I now feel 100% making strength, size, and weight gains. If I do decide to do something like Osta for a summer cut, I will buy Nolva before I even buy the Osta. Lesson learned.
 
Serm in PCT is mandatory to keep as much gains as possible, smith_69 is right on this. Personally, I had no sides from either Clomid -nor Nolva, but you have to know what the consequences could be, using PH's, Sarms, AAS or Serms.

For instance, Epistane is well tolerated by most, it wrecked both of my knee joints, still fighting to fix them 3 month after cycle.

Read, read, ask, read some more...
 
bashar said:
Guys I am confused now, does Nolva have negative side effects? To Nolva or not to Nolva!
Click to expand...

SERMs have bad side effects. No surprise there, so do AAS. SARMs ... well we don't know yet, but I doubt they're as good for you as a nice salad.

The point is, why we would take SERMs? Basically the pituitary gland secrets LH which signals the testes to produce testosterone:
* pituitary gland -> LH -> testes -> testosterone

When you take AAS, your LH is pretty much at 0, which means the testes are shut down and there is no testosterone produced. Nolva stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH, which signals the testes to restart production of testosterone. However, if you are shutdown it means that your testes are most likely in atrophy, so they need to first come back before they can start producing testosterone.
In my case my LH is not 0. On the scale from 1.7 to 8.6, my LH level is 4. So my pituitary gland is producing LH, which means that my testes are producing testosterone. I am suppressed, but not shutdown.
On a scale of 0 to 10 shutdown is 0, suppressed is anywhere between 1 and 9.

So look at it like this, let's say you're in a car and you want to hit 100mph. If you are already driving at 40mph, it's a whole lot easier to get to 100 than if you are starting from a complete stop with the engine turned off. So you can put Nitrous Oxide in the tank to boost the engine power. However, Nitrous Oxide eats away at the piston heads, the piston rings, the cylinder lining, and it warps the piston rods.

That said, is 4 weeks of Nolva going to mess you up? Most likely not. I mean you just did 6 weeks of a hormonal substance and you're going to short yourself over an extra 4 weeks?
In my case, I chose Osta because it's not as harsh as AAS, so I also chose to do a less harsh PCT. Make no mistake, though, I went into this as prepared as possible:
a) Following the recommendation of pretty much everyone on this board, I had Nolva on hand because I didn't know what my blood levels would be.
b) I am doing an OTC PCT only because I did bloods, so I know what my level are. I am not guessing and taking a risk.

According to a number of bloods results, Osta does not crash your LH, so you should be ok with an OTC PCT. However, I was educated by booneman77, who was shutdown by Osta, so in his case OTC PCT would not be an option.
So ... would I recommend you do Nolva or OTC? I would recommend you do bloods, then you will have the hard facts.
 
UncleSarm said:
SERMs have bad side effects. No surprise there, so do AAS. SARMs ... well we don't know yet, but I doubt they're as good for you as a nice salad.

The point is, why we would take SERMs? Basically the pituitary gland secrets LH which signals the testes to produce testosterone:
* pituitary gland -> LH -> testes -> testosterone

When you take AAS, your LH is pretty much at 0, which means the testes are shut down and there is no testosterone produced. Nolva stimulates the pituitary gland to produce LH, which signals the testes to restart production of testosterone. However, if you are shutdown it means that your testes are most likely in atrophy, so they need to first come back before they can start producing testosterone.
In my case my LH is not 0. On the scale from 1.7 to 8.6, my LH level is 4. So my pituitary gland is producing LH, which means that my testes are producing testosterone. I am suppressed, but not shutdown.
On a scale of 0 to 10 shutdown is 0, suppressed is anywhere between 1 and 9.

So look at it like this, let's say you're in a car and you want to hit 100mph. If you are already driving at 40mph, it's a whole lot easier to get to 100 than if you are starting from a complete stop with the engine turned off. So you can put Nitrous Oxide in the tank to boost the engine power. However, Nitrous Oxide eats away at the piston heads, the piston rings, the cylinder lining, and it warps the piston rods.

That said, is 4 weeks of Nolva going to mess you up? Most likely not. I mean you just did 6 weeks of a hormonal substance and you're going to short yourself over an extra 4 weeks?
In my case, I chose Osta because it's not as harsh as AAS, so I also chose to do a less harsh PCT. Make no mistake, though, I went into this as prepared as possible:
a) Following the recommendation of pretty much everyone on this board, I had Nolva on hand because I didn't know what my blood levels would be.
b) I am doing an OTC PCT only because I did bloods, so I know what my level are. I am not guessing and taking a risk.

According to a number of bloods results, Osta does not crash your LH, so you should be ok with an OTC PCT. However, I was educated by booneman77, who was shutdown by Osta, so in his case OTC PCT would not be an option.
So ... would I recommend you do Nolva or OTC? I would recommend you do bloods, then you will have the hard facts.
Click to expand...

Well said UncleSarm. I like the car analogy as well. I had been contemplating using a similar analogy on a write-up I'm working on. Lol. Great use of a logical thought process. Youza smaht dood;)
 
smith_69 said:
think Sarmy has come out of his shell in the past few days! lol
Click to expand...


Cycle is done. All difficult decisions are done. Now I can pull out the lump of coal I had clenched between my cheeks and enjoy the diamond. :147:

And of course, this wouldn't have happened without the knowledge and support of everyone on this forum, so ... very grateful.
 
UncleSarm said:
Cycle is done. All difficult decisions are done. Now I can pull out the lump of coal I had clenched between my cheeks and enjoy the diamond. :147:

And of course, this wouldn't have happened without the knowledge and support of everyone on this forum, so ... very grateful.
Click to expand...

good bro- and right back at you as well- lots of sharing with great info,
 
NoAddedHmones said:
So how did the cycle live up to your goals? planning on using Osta again?
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Yeah, I think it lived up to my expectations and then some. It's kind of like the first time you have sex. At first you're a little concerned because you've never done it before and what happens if you don't perform. Afterwards you're like yeah, easy, peasy.

I definitely would like to do another one, maybe at 8 weeks and smaller dose. I also have LGD that's calling my name.
 
PCT - Week 1 - Day 7

Today was the last day of the first week of PCT. I am already seeing some loss in strength. I am still keeping up in my workouts but they are definitely getting more challenging. I am also feeling a little soreness on the following day. On Saturday I had a pretty intense yoga session and my hamstrings were sore for days (plural) afterwards. While on Osta I never had any soreness the day after and stretching my muscles felt like working with Playdoh, so I am missing it already!

Today also was the second "off" day for bulbine. Although a study showed that 28 days on bulbine was fine, I decided to do 5 days on, 2 days off. Probably if won't make any appreciable difference, but throw in a couple of coconuts and a voodoo doll and I'm good to go.

One of the things I have not missing these two days is passing gas. Bulbine makes it smell like ... I described it as "it could have stopped a full grown charging rhino dead in its tracks". The first couple of days in the PCT were the absolute worst but it's mellowed down now, so maybe it's no longer effective against a full grown rhino ... maybe a pigmy rhino.
 
Last edited:
UncleSarm said:
PCT - Week 1 - Day 7

Today was the last day of the first week of PCT. I am already seeing some loss in strength. I am still keeping up in my workouts but they are definitely getting more challenging. I am also feeling a little soreness on the following day. On Saturday I had a pretty intense yoga session and my hamstrings were sore for days (plural) afterwards. While on Osta I never had any soreness the day after and stretching my muscles felt like working with Playdoh, so I am missing it already!

Today also was the second "off" day for bulbine. Although a study showed that 28 days on bulbine was fine, I decided to do 5 days on, 2 days off. Probably if won't make any appreciable difference, but throw in a couple of coconuts and a voodoo doll and I'm good to go.

One of the things I have not missing these two days is passing gas. Bulbine makes it smell like ... I described it as "it could have stopped a full grown charging rhino dead in its tracks". The first couple of days in the PCT were the absolute worst but it's mellowed down now, so maybe it's no longer effective against a full grown rhino ... maybe a pigmy rhino.
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IMHO, phosphatidylserine for cortisol control 2x 400mg/day and a couple of grams HMB helped me during PCT to maintain strength. There are divided opinions on that but for me it worked.
 
sanmarino said:
No big deal, you are welcome.
Yes, I made a false statement (I wrote "in the upper part" instead of "in the lower part"), sorry. Was a long day :) But it doesn't change anything.
The ABSOLUTELY MAIN VALUES are LH and FSH. They are the "machines" which are responsible for your sexual hormones in your body and your fertility.
You probably heard of stories, in which bodybuilders on AAS can't "make" childrens. This is because of the low FSH-value, which will decrease to <0.01 while using AAS. Theoretically, you are temporarily infertile :D But there are always exceptions, Markus Rühl for example became a father recently. So, still use condoms :D

When you are using AAS, the "machines" are not used anymore for producing endogen sexual hormones because you are using exogenic substances. SARM in this case work on an other pathway (just one example: you can see, that the non-steroidal SARM are NOT based on the typical cholesterol skeleton. The one example is YK-11, which is a steroidal-SARM, which bases on the Nandrolone structure. Without testing it yet I'm sure - and there are some replies regarding this way - that YK-11 will influence your libido, analog to the so-called "Deca-d*ck". But this is another story.)

You are completely right. SERM have in man several other/additional functions than in woman (generally, SERM are used primarily for women). In men, it "boosts" the two very important values LH and FSH. It is not rare, that after a treatment of four to six weeks you can increase your LH from <0.01 to above the upper limit of the laboratory scale. But this is only temporary. This boost will lead to enourmous production in sexual hormones - in our case the testosterone is most important, because this little hormone holds/keeps our musculature.

Just another example: theoretically, you can do a cycle (AAS) and leave it without taking any SERM. What happens? As we know, the testosterone holds the musculature. But what happens, if you have the same values as a seven year old girl? You will loose rapidly (but not in 1-2 weeks, don't panic) your muscle mass (beside other conditions regarding to too low testosterone values) and you have done an expensive/unhealthy cycle for nothing.
This is also the main point, why PCT is used: to shorten the time (it can take several months until the LH is normal again without any help).

But the LH/FSH are in your case completely in range. In the studies you will also notice, that the probands recovered themselves in three weeks - without taking any SERM/herbal supplements, of course.
Only a side note: I did until now only one "real" PCT with Tamox, that was in a LGD, S-4, MK-677 and GW cycle. All the others (several Osta only, Osta + S-4, LGD only) I didn't used any SERM but other OTC supplements. Any my values returned every time to the pre-level.

OTC PCT is not a bad choice, you can use it. Also keep your eyes open on products containing Ksm-66 ashwagandha (very powerful), Acacetin, Amentoflavone and/or Coumaroyldopamine. DAA is helpful, too.
Four weeks is a good time range.
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Could I ask what cycle length and doses you did with Osta only, and LGD only? I think I am now fairly confident that I can do another Osta cycle, 6 wks at 25mg or 8 wks at 20mg, and be ok. I also have LGD that I would like to try and would love to hear what doses and how long you did your cycles.

Like smith_69 said "youll be back-" and, yeah already thinking about the next cycle.
 
1. Cycle: Ostarine @ 20mg/ed @ 11 weeks. PCT: DAA
2. Cycle: Ostarine @ 20mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: none
3. Cycle: LGD @ 5mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
4. Cycle: Ostarine @ 15mg/ed @ 12 weeks. PCT: DAA
5. Cycle: Ostarine + S-4 @ 20mg/ed + 50mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
6. Cycle: LGD + S-4 @ 7mg/ed + 50mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
7. Cycle: Ostarine @ 15mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: none.
8. Cycle: LGD + S-4 + PPAR + GHS @ up to 10mg/ed LGD and up to 70mg/ed S-4 @ 10 weeks. PCT: 20mg/ed Tamoxifene + 10mg/ed Ostarine
9. Cycle: LGD @ 7mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
10. Cycle: Ostarine @ 12.5mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: herbal product only
11. Planned Spring Cycle: YK-11 + RAD-140 + LGD + GHS @ 5mg/ed + 10mg/ed + 5mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: 20mg/ed Tamoxifene + 10mg/ed Ostarine + 15mg/ed GW-501516

The breaks between the cycles were at least three months, between spring and winter up to 6 months (with two exceptions). Hmm, when listing them up it seems that were a lot of cycles I made...
Went up in these 4.5 years by 18kg, slight lower bodyfat and same hight (lol). That are 4kg mass per year. No illusion: with more engagement this should be possible to reach as a natural. But I won't lie: becauseof my work condition I have two "timeframes" per year, which I have much more time to train for than in the other two.
 
sanmarino said:
1. Cycle: Ostarine @ 20mg/ed @ 11 weeks. PCT: DAA
2. Cycle: Ostarine @ 20mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: none
3. Cycle: LGD @ 5mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
4. Cycle: Ostarine @ 15mg/ed @ 12 weeks. PCT: DAA
5. Cycle: Ostarine + S-4 @ 20mg/ed + 50mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
6. Cycle: LGD + S-4 @ 7mg/ed + 50mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
7. Cycle: Ostarine @ 15mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: none.
8. Cycle: LGD + S-4 + PPAR + GHS @ up to 10mg/ed LGD and up to 70mg/ed S-4 @ 10 weeks. PCT: 20mg/ed Tamoxifene + 10mg/ed Ostarine
9. Cycle: LGD @ 7mg/ed @ 8 weeks. PCT: DAA + herbal product
10. Cycle: Ostarine @ 12.5mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: herbal product only
11. Planned Spring Cycle: YK-11 + RAD-140 + LGD + GHS @ 5mg/ed + 10mg/ed + 5mg/ed @ 10 weeks. PCT: 20mg/ed Tamoxifene + 10mg/ed Ostarine + 15mg/ed GW-501516

The breaks between the cycles were at least three months, between spring and winter up to 6 months (with two exceptions). Hmm, when listing them up it seems that were a lot of cycles I made...
Went up in these 4.5 years by 18kg, slight lower bodyfat and same hight (lol). That are 4kg mass per year. No illusion: with more engagement this should be possible to reach as a natural. But I won't lie: becauseof my work condition I have two "timeframes" per year, which I have much more time to train for than in the other two.
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Thanks for sharing! 4kg (8.8lbs) a year may not sound like a lot, but when you are close to your genetic limit, this is a big deal.
 
PCT - Week 2 - Day 12

Well, good news for me. Although my weight has been slowly dropping at the rate of 0.5 lbs per week, I got a waist measurement today and it went down to 32.5" from 33 1/", so I have dropped 3/4" from around my waist. At least this means that the weight loss is due to fat loss and muscle loss in PCT. So I am down 2.5" overall.
 
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