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First cycle: Lean muscle cycle

hutchjnr

New member
Let me start off by introducing myself. I'm Ben, 28yo male from Australia.
Love the forum, everyone here does a great job and is really insightful.

My stats are:
Height: 5'10
Weight: 187lb
BF %: 18%
Body type: Mesomorph

I hope I am in the right section and haven't done anything wrong (apologies if I have!)...

I have been weight training pretty much for about 6-7 years now (with only a 6 month break 4 years ago) and have started entertaining the idea of steroids. I have done a fair bit of research myself the past few weeks and the more I read, the more confused I get I think! lol

My mate, has some stana (winny) and I was initially going to take it on it's own, as my main goal as the title says, is lean muscle. After looking into this a bit more I am starting to question if it is worthwhile?
I have had a "bulking" cycle, naturally with creatine, glutamine, bcaa's and other supp's, and put on about 10-12lb's, with some good muscle growth.

My question is, do I need Test when taking Winny?
If I have already had my "bulking" cycle, can I just do say Winny or Clen and increase my cardio and strict diet to rip right up?
Bear in mind my goal is to rip up not to bulk.

If you have some input, please try to make it constructive (it is my first post!)...

Thanks
 
You don't need test when you run winny but its recommended. You can get "ripped" without steroids. just lower your cals and increase cardio. Realize clen and winstrol are 2 completely different things. Do you care about maintaining mass while cutting? We need more info to help you. Also realize your goals are completely achevible without steroids. But the decision is for you to make.
 
Honestly you could cut a lot of body fat without steroids if you are starting at 18%...maybe save the steroids till you have gotten to around 12%?
 
I wouldn't start them until you hit a Plateau in your fat loss but thanks for recognizing that they really aren't needed for fat loss in general. They have there place for maintaining mass while cutting.
 
Thanks for the responses guys.

Realize clen and winstrol are 2 completely different things
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I know this! lol. I was just asking if there would be any benefit to do either of them alone or together?
I do want to maintain a similar weight, so I do want to maintain most of the mass, but primary objective is to rip up.
I have started eating all the right things about 6 weeks ago, but want a "kick start", especially in losing a bit of fat around the ab section!

Another cycle I found was... (Thoughts)

Primabolan depot - 300mg per week for 8 weeks
Deca durabolan - 400mg per week for 8 weeks
Winstrol - 150mg per week, weeks 2-7

I realise it is Test free, I am a bit worried about Test, as I feel I will get too big with it, as I don't really want to get any heavier.

I understand the role diet and cardio plays in cutting, but I want a little hand in helping lose some of the fat, but maintaining most of the muscle.
 
If you want a cutter, I strongly recommend katanadrol 2.0 from mrsupps. Iv tried it and cut out about 10% body fat in 5 weeks. It gives you hard gains. Your body will feel tighter as well. You don't need to pin for cutting. Their non liver toxic as well with literally no side effects. Get some decent pct with it and your good to go. Mrsupps were doing a BOGO last time I checked!
 
Thanks Ricci

I'm not sure how easy it's gonna be getting it in Australia but!
Almost def banned, so either the websites wont ship to Aus and if they do, running the risk of customs getting a hold of it.

But will def look into it...
 
Ricci Gladwel said:
If you want a cutter, I strongly recommend katanadrol 2.0 from mrsupps. Iv tried it and cut out about 10% body fat in 5 weeks. It gives you hard gains. Your body will feel tighter as well. You don't need to pin for cutting. Their non liver toxic as well with literally no side effects. Get some decent pct with it and your good to go. Mrsupps were doing a BOGO last time I checked!
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10% in 5 weeks is absurd. That's be 18lbs of pure fat if you were average sized. , without any muscle loss.

Katanadrol is great but it won't drop more than 2-3% bf on 6 weeks
 
Anyone else have any experience with Katanadrol? Positive/negative?

From what I can see there is only positive things said about it? This can't be right!!? I can't believe there is something out there that people only think is good...

Anything else similar to it, in case I can't get it in Aus or cant get it through customs?

Doesn't seem to be a whole lot of options out there for suppliers either? Mrsupps looks likes the only one, other ones no longer have it? Are they not making it anymore?
 
It's great, but its so expensive. That's the con haha. You need 2 bottles to run a good 6 week cycle. It's pricey
 
Actually I am using katana rite now it's fukcing awesome. I dropped ten pounds fat. I'm on my second bottle. Katana yielded strength gains while on a calorie restricted diet during first bottle. This alone was great. But now I'm upping my calorie intake and katana dose is double what I did with the first bottle. So happy so far.

Actually I myself noticed strength improvements and lower weight on the scale. But my better half was like umm people r gunna think your on roids cuz u lost all your fat and now ur muscles r popping out. When u hear that it's a good sign.
 
ok, so I decided to go the Katana.

Do I need to run anything on cycle with it, or is a PCT required with katana?

I was looking at formastanzol on cycle and pct and nolva/clomid pct...
Is this needed and if so what are the major benefits I would see running this as opposed to just katana alone at 250-300mg a day.
 
I'd do serm for immediate pct and then start the form when u r almost done with the serm. Anyone else have suggestions on Forma timing?
 
Any thoughts on Resveratrol?
It is a natural AI, that I can quite easily get in Oz at health shops... seems to have plenty of good reviews.
They say it only offers mild effects.
But considering I am running katana on it's own... would I need much more than that?
 
Rez supps r ineffective cuz Rez is highly unstable. The only way u can get Rez is red wine in minute amounts. Well it's in white too and maybe more but red has most. Even then the Rez in wine is inactive after a day of poppin the cork, that might paint a pic on why Rez supps aren't worth it. If anyone has science proving Rez supps worth it let me know. Pinot noir has the most Rez.
 
Below is an extract from Wikipedia...

Testosterone

A Korean study showed that trans-resveratrol supplementation increased testosterone levels in men in vivo,[170] which has led to its marketing as a bodybuilding supplement. A Spanish study has also shown the antioxidant to increase sperm production in rats

If you google it and go to some different bodybuilding forums, especially some in Australia, you will see there is plenty of positive reviews...

;)
 
Cool but Rez is highly sensitive to oxidization which means it's dead after about a day of hitting the air. Furthermore it's also sensitive to uv light so u have to be sure of the raw material manufacturing process as well as the supplement companies capsuling procedures. But by then it's most likely oxidized.
 
I'm not debating the fact Rez is beneficial to test I'm just saying the supps arent as effective as they should be. Especially for the price
 
I can get them for $17 for 60, 500mg caps... So I would say that receives a tick in the cost-benefit column ;)

Anyone else have any views on resveratrol?
Or just PCT in general for Katana alone cycle?

Would there be another product to run on cycle with the katana that should be a no-brainer and if so why?

Appreciate the input :)
 
I'm doing katana and I'd say the best thing would be serm upon finish of cycle. I do ai after serm. Basically to jumpstart hpta but really I have had no sides besides aggression which may be due to hi bp
 
mugen112 said:
I'm doing katana and I'd say the best thing would be serm upon finish of cycle. I do ai after serm. Basically to jumpstart hpta but really I have had no sides besides aggression which may be due to hi bp
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No reason to serm after katana. Logic being that the serm is probably more toxic than the katana. A good AI stacked with a natty test booster should be fine.
 
Cool then I shouldn't have to get serms in the future. I'll try d-test by mr supps.

As for their Forma it's powerful and gives me night sweats but I can't ever do it again cuz I have kids. No more TDs :(

So does anyone know a good oral ai?

How is Bromo?
 
I would assume arimidex would be a good choice. I have no experience with letro or exmistane. I have used ATD with success as well in the past. Formastane is great, but no transdermal, no formestane. Given the choice I would use pharm grade (tablet) adex. I don't like using research chems if I have the option not to.
 
Thanks mate, really appreciate your help.
What is it, you don't like about the research chems? Are they unreliable/ you never know what you are getting?

Next to find a reputable site for the tabs... Wish me luck! haha
 
hutchjnr said:
Thanks mate, really appreciate your help.
What is it, you don't like about the research chems? Are they unreliable/ you never know what you are getting?

Next to find a reputable site for the tabs... Wish me luck! haha
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Unreliable, unable to verify sanitization of said chemicals, plenty of bad stuff out there to get screwed over by. If you gotta use it, use it. I have in the past. But I put in effort to get pharmacy grade tabs if at all possible.
 
Is it not risky to use ugl tabs? I know they have a rep to uphold but isnt it possible that u order serm tabs but they send u dbol. Bad example but it's a worry. Input?
 
Ok, so I am going to incorporate AI cycle support into my cycle. And think that should have me covered for my cycle.

Still very undecided with the PCT... Some people say a SERM is overkill others say you should use it.
I've seen a lot of people recommending HCGerate, but it seems very expensive for just a nat test booster. Why HCG over others?
Whats peoples thoughts on Forged post cycle or AI post cycle?

I'm also unsure why Forma is needed PCT? Judging by what I have read isn't it similar to a PH in that it mimics the steroid Primobolan Depot?
So why would I take this as part of a PCT?
If someone could explain this to me I would extremely grateful... I have been wrapping my head around this for the best part of 5 days and can't work it out.

So at the moment my cycle and pct is looking like this:

On cycle: Katana- 250/300/300/300/350/350
AI cycle support

PCT: HCG & DAA

does that sound alright?
 
I like the idea of not using a serm. I always used one cuz everyone and their mom says to use one but really I don't feel shutdown at all and libido still rockin. So maybe I'll be fine without it. I'm going to use one this time cuz I already got one but next time I'll experiment. It'll be cool to spend the extra cash on more support supps. Also I came across a new idea with the help of some other members. Take 3 or 4 caps all at once preworkout and be off the rest of the day. The half life is short so maybe it will further minimize suppression than being on it all day. What do u think about that OP?
 
mugen112 said:
I like the idea of not using a serm. I always used one cuz everyone and their mom says to use one but really I don't feel shutdown at all and libido still rockin. So maybe I'll be fine without it. I'm going to use one this time cuz I already got one but next time I'll experiment. It'll be cool to spend the extra cash on more support supps. Also I came across a new idea with the help of some other members. Take 3 or 4 caps all at once preworkout and be off the rest of the day. The half life is short so maybe it will further minimize suppression than being on it all day. What do u think about that OP?
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What it really comes down to is gyno is irreversible.. so maybe you do not need a serm for every cycle... but is it worth not using for the possible risks?
 
SERMs block the estrogen receptors in your body especially in your nipples it is the first line of defense against gyno and it also jump starts hpta
 
I hate to interrupt this riveting conversation... But could we get back on topic...

Could someone else (slightly more experienced) please respond to my post above (besides MUGEN, I have heard enough from you!)

Thanks :)
 
didnt mean to hijack just wanted to make sure YOU make an educated decision when it comes to what to use PCT. good luck :)
 
This shows serms in pct are ineffective at treating gyno.

RenegadeRows said:
Happy Thanksgiving! I'm giving thanks for AM for giving me the knowledge to share with all.

Not for post cycle therapy
This should not be used for post cycle therapy, but rather a standalone cycle coupled with non hormonal products, training and diet.

The Philosophy
The basic instruction is not the amount of SERMs you take but the length of time. As you can see from the studies The length of time your on a SERM determines your results, NOT the amount you dose.



As we can see, these patients who reduced their gyno went from 3-9 MONTHS before they saw results. I would say to dose everyday for at least 6 months to see results.

The reason why people are not seeing results with SERMs reducing gyno is not because theyre SERM is bunk (which is a possibility), but they dont have the gusto to go for at least 6 months.

10mg nolva for 6 months is far more likely to reduce your gyno then if you went for 4 weeks @ 60mg nolva

Ralox or Nolvadex?
Raloxifene is preferable because it is less hepatoxic and better on the lipids.

Dosages
Nolvadex: 10-20mg ED
Raloxifene: 30-60mg ED

Other Ideas to Stack With
Topical Formestane (lowdose at the beginning)
Topical ATD (lowdose at the beginning)
Oral AIs (lowdose at the beginning)
Grape Seed Extract (high dose throughout)
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