First cycle help needed. Test cyp + Epistane

[Aesthete]

Hello everyone, so I am getting ready to do my first cycle and I wanted to know your opinions on this. My stats: 30 yrs old, 5'6, 160 lbs, around 14-15% bf, been training for 6+ years.
I want to stack epistane with test cyp for first cycle, here's the plan:
10 weeks test cyp 300-500 mgs + 8 week Epistane at 20 for 4 weeks and 30 for lat 4 weeks
Week 1 and 2 - test cyp at 150 mgs 2x per week( monday morning and thursday evening). Start hcg 250 iu every 3.5 days( tuesday and friday) at the 2nd week. Arimidex at 0.25 mg every other day.
Week 3-6 Test cyp at 400mg. Start taking Epi at 3rd week.
Week 7-10 Test cyp either 400 or 500, depending on how I feel, tolerance levels. Epi at 30 mg.
PCT two weeks after last pin: Clomid 50/50/25/25; Nolva 40/20/20/20
Also, I will use cycle support with epi( even though the product already has NAC, but just in case). Taking Arimidex up until PCT. What do you guys think? I'd like to know, what amount of test you would recommend as a test base for PHs? Any help is appreciated.

 

[Whisky]

First up bro congrats on doing your research and presenting up a well thought out cycle plan. Sadly it doesn’t happen that often.

generally speaking it’s decent but I’ve given some thoughts below:

- first - get bloods before you start, this is the only chance you get to establish what your natural hormonal baseline is. It’s the only way to know how well you are recovering post cycle.

- re the AI. Imo it is far better to monitor for signs of high estrogen and only use the ai if you need. At 300-500 some guys won’t need an ai at all. It’s impossible to know what you will need, we have to dial it in over the first 4-5 weeks.

- there is a subtle difference between a test base and a supra physiological dose of test. A base replaces your natural production so you feel ok on cycle, the dose your running will be actively contributing to the improved outcomes. But your dosing looks good.

it’s a good plan though bro, you’ll have fun. Enjoy

 

[BBiceps]

I second on that it’s a well planned cycle, good job.

I would recommend to not use that much AI if any at all, like @Whisky said only use if you feel you need to, worst case use it on injecting days only, definitely not eod.

You can wait to add the HCG to the end of cycle but some guys likes to use it from the beginning.

Good luck!

 

[KvanH]

8 weeks for Epistane is a bit pushing it imo. At the very least you should check bloods for lipids and liver after 5-6 weeks in taking it to see if you should continue. And monitor blood pressure. But for your first cycle I would leave the Epistane out all together, the test will be plenty.

Your test dose looks fine imo. Can't really tell how much AI you'll need. May not need any with the 300 mg for example. PCT looks fine.

If you take the the Epistane, adding tudca isn't a bad idea.

 

[Aesthete]

Thanks for the feedback guys, much appreciated. So, I'd like to make a few points:
1. Of course, I will do a full bloodwork 2 weeks prior to the cycle, so next week.
2. Ok, I will not use AI for first 2-3 weeks, I first need to check my tolerance. I will still get arimidex, just in case. Can you guys tell me what are the symptoms I should be looking out for, besides the obvious gyno? I'd hate to get a gyno before I even start an AI.
3. The reason why I'm tempted to use EPI is because based on my research, I'll mostly make wet gains on test. For me, the main goal of this cycle is to body recomp, make some lean gains as well as strength gains. I'd hate to lose most of the gains I'd made on testosterone alone.
4. It is recommended to use the epi product I want to use for at least 8 weeks in suggested use. I guess I'll have to get blood work done after 6 weeks on it, which I hate the idea of, because I don't really want to see how fkd up my levels are. Is there anything I should be looking out for in terms of bloodwork? Like, the normal lipid range etc.?
5. I decided I'll start using hcg at the start of 2nd or 3rd week because I want to see how my body responds to moderate dose of test alone first.
6. Also, I forgot to mention, I plan to use clomid at 50 for the first 2-3 days and then down it to 25 mg for the rest of the PCT. I figured that should be plenty, don't want any sides from it.

 

[Hyde]

Good layout except AI should be dosed on perceived need, as mentioned, not prewritten. You will want to take it if you have puffy or sensitive nips at all, or if you feel you are holding water, or if your erectile quality is suffering any. Dosing on injection days twice a week is probably a good start, and it may take 1-3 weeks before you need it. You most likely will, but some guys don’t need any at all even on bigger doses. I need an AI even for TRT levels.

Oral should go at the back half of the cycle. Total anabolic dosage should always progress in a cycle; kickstarts ruin later growth potential. 6 weeks of Epistane is plenty, trust me. It was my first oral and one of my favorites and I haven’t been able to use it for almost 5 years it kills my joints so bad (and I’m barely 31 lol). Orals are going to ruin your lipids until you come off and spend time recovering, which is another reason to use them at the end.

I would run 300mg the first half and bump to 400mg the last half. You just don’t need 500 just yet. I cycled tons of orals and transdermals for 8-9 years before adding test, and just 300mg with my oral blew me up better than any previous cycles.

 

[Aesthete]

Good layout except AI should be dosed on perceived need, as mentioned, not prewritten. You will want to take it if you have puffy or sensitive nips at all, or if you feel you are holding water, or if your erectile quality is suffering any. Dosing on injection days twice a week is probably a good start, and it may take 1-3 weeks before you need it. You most likely will, but some guys don’t need any at all even on bigger doses. I need an AI even for TRT levels.

Oral should go at the back half of the cycle. Total anabolic dosage should always progress in a cycle; kickstarts ruin later growth potential. 6 weeks of Epistane is plenty, trust me. It was my first oral and one of my favorites and I haven’t been able to use it for almost 5 years it kills my joints so bad (and I’m barely 31 lol). Orals are going to ruin your lipids until you come off and spend time recovering, which is another reason to use them at the end.

I would run 300mg the first half and bump to 400mg the last half. You just don’t need 500 just yet. I cycled tons of orals and transdermals for 8-9 years before adding test, and just 300mg with my oral blew me up better than any previous cycles.

Solid advice, that helped a lot. I figured 500 mg with oral would be overkill for 1st cycle. So I'd do first 5 weeks on 300 mgs and last 5 weeks 400 mg and add epi during last 5 weeks, just to be safe. Would you recommend doing an EPI only cycle without the test for 1st time? Or is it better having a test base?

 

[KvanH]

Solid advice, that helped a lot. I figured 500 mg with oral would be overkill for 1st cycle. So I'd do first 5 weeks on 300 mgs and last 5 weeks 400 mg and add epi during last 5 weeks, just to be safe. Would you recommend doing an EPI only cycle without the test for 1st time? Or is it better having a test base?

My recommendation would rather be test only, than Epi only. Epi would be better with a test base, but if you're pinning test, might aswell use more of it, than just for a 'base'. So either test + Epi or test only.

 

[Hyde]

Solid advice, that helped a lot. I figured 500 mg with oral would be overkill for 1st cycle. So I'd do first 5 weeks on 300 mgs and last 5 weeks 400 mg and add epi during last 5 weeks, just to be safe. Would you recommend doing an EPI only cycle without the test for 1st time? Or is it better having a test base?

Either test only, or adding the Epistane later on once you have an idea how test feels and works for you.

To be straight with you, excluding the Epistane and just using 3-400mg of test your first run is going to probably produce similar results by the time PCT is over, and be much healthier.

Orals are generally for temporary strength and cosmetic effects for competition, or busting through size/progress plateaus.

 

[BBiceps]

Solid advice, that helped a lot. I figured 500 mg with oral would be overkill for 1st cycle. So I'd do first 5 weeks on 300 mgs and last 5 weeks 400 mg and add epi during last 5 weeks, just to be safe. Would you recommend doing an EPI only cycle without the test for 1st time? Or is it better having a test base?

Naw, use the Epi with the Test, it’ll be more fun for sure.

 

[Whisky]

Haha, look OP, @Hyde and @KvanH are right in saying test only is a suitable first cycle and the smart way to go

but personally I don’t respond well to test and adding an oral makes a big difference for me (well for anyone) and as @BBiceps says it’s defo more fun (personally I found epistane pretty side free but others struggle with joints etc).

I would use the oral last 6 weeks myself but I definitely don’t always do the right thing. Read the info and make a call. Orals impact health more for sure - there’s a risk reward element here also

 

[Aesthete]

Thanks everyone, I decided I will run test at 300-400 mg with Epi for 5-6 weeks, if I feel ok after the first half of the cycle. I will probably make a record of my experience here on this forum.

 

[Hyde]

Thanks everyone, I decided I will run test at 300-400 mg with Epi for 5-6 weeks, if I feel ok after the first half of the cycle. I will probably make a record of my experience here on this forum.

It will be a good time man. Don’t expect an explosion out of the gates. It will take a few weeks for you to really start seeing some performance increases likely. However, if you have never used test, the first time can be quite an intense libido experience. Prepare for standards to drop!

 

[Whisky]

It will be a good time man. Don’t expect an explosion out of the gates. It will take a few weeks for you to really start seeing some performance increases likely. However, if you have never used test, the first time can be quite an intense libido experience. Prepare for standards to drop!

standards to drop and if you in the least bit kinky be prepared for that to ramp up my friend

 

[Aesthete]

It will be a good time man. Don’t expect an explosion out of the gates. It will take a few weeks for you to really start seeing some performance increases likely. However, if you have never used test, the first time can be quite an intense libido experience. Prepare for standards to drop!

I actually need that, tbh. My test is within the lower end of normal range and sometimes I can't even get it up due to overtraining, which is why I want to jump on test: I want to train daily without overtraining.

 

[Whisky]

I actually need that, tbh. My test is within the lower end of normal range and sometimes I can't even get it up due to overtraining, which is why I want to jump on test: I want to train daily without overtraining.

whilst test undoubtably increases training capacity and recovery ability don’t believe it’s not possible to overtrain. You have to be fcuking stupid in your programming to do so but I’ve been that guy……rest (or growth as I like to call them) days are really important, on gear just as much as off.

 

[Hyde]

whilst test undoubtably increases training capacity and recovery ability don’t believe it’s not possible to overtrain. You have to be fcuking stupid in your programming to do so but I’ve been that guy……rest (or growth as I like to call them) days are really important, on gear just as much as off.

Yeah the muscles recover fast but your tendons and ligaments are putting in serious overtime. That becomes the new limiter lol

 

[Aesthete]

whilst test undoubtably increases training capacity and recovery ability don’t believe it’s not possible to overtrain. You have to be fcuking stupid in your programming to do so but I’ve been that guy……rest (or growth as I like to call them) days are really important, on gear just as much as off.

Of course, but it should significantly increase your recovery capability though. My programm is good, but it's a lot of training, I'm not always able to recover properly being natty.

 

[Whisky]

Of course, but it should significantly increase your recovery capability though. My programm is good, but it's a lot of training, I'm not always able to recover properly being natty.

oh it definitely does but I actually managed to destroy my cns even on gear. Progressively overloaded both squat and dead every week for 10-12 weeks on trest and epistane. Took me 6 months to recover properly.

just a stupid programming mistake by someone who should have known better (me)

 

[Aesthete]

oh it definitely does but I actually managed to destroy my cns even on gear. Progressively overloaded both squat and dead every week for 10-12 weeks on trest and epistane. Took me 6 months to recover properly.

just a stupid programming mistake by someone who should have known better (me)

Yeah, 3 months without deloading is a no no. I didn't even know abt the importance of deloading the first 2-3 years of training lol. 6 months is a long time. I've had multiple overtraining episodes. They lasted 2 weeks at most. However, about 10 months ago I had the worst adrenal fatigue which led to neurosis. Basically, I had some emotional stress in my life, so I was drinking like every other day at the time. On top of that I was training hard. Retarded, I know. So one day, after doing some deadlifts I felt dizzy I couldn't even walk, next thing you know I'm covered in cold sweat and I'm having a panic attack 2 hours after. For the next 3 months I had cold sweats and dizziness episodes every day. My test was super low. Once I started taking high dose of vitamin D, it got back to normal in a month. Now, I make sure I do a deload week every 3-4 weeks because I train 6-7 days a week, sometimes twice a day( cardio/hiit+ weights). Anyway, after I recovered from that, I got stronger than I ever was and it seems like my cns is stronger than before.