First cycle/epistane/possible gyno?

Dmulv21

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Just finished my third week of my first ever cycle, epistane 40 mg ed. Today I woke up and my right nipple was extremely sensitive and sore. No lumps underneath but both nipples are staying hard and the tip of the right one is very pale/off color. Heard gyno is very rare on epistane but am not sure what else it could be. Dosed 20 mg nolva today, but should I stop cycle and begin pct? Any input is appreciated
 
Whisky

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From memory any issues with gyno and epistane were normally in pct from a rebound effect.

I’ve not heard of it causing prolactin issues personally (which also often causes sore nipples).

so my two questions would be:

1) how sure are you it is epistane?

2) have you been excessively playing with your nipples? (Genuine question, people often touch their nipples more on a first cycle ‘checking’ and make them sore that way)?
 
Renew1

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I've heard and seen this reported occassionally over the years.

2 things:

Yes, it is possible ANY time you mess with your hormones.

You don't know that it is gyno.
But I'd be careful.
Personally, I'd run Nolva with it and see how it goes, if it was me.
But I'd totally understand if you decide to bail, and PCT now.
 

Dmulv21

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From memory any issues with gyno and epistane were normally in pct from a rebound effect.

I’ve not heard of it causing prolactin issues personally (which also often causes sore nipples).

so my two questions would be:

1) how sure are you it is epistane?

2) have y
From memory any issues with gyno and epistane were normally in pct from a rebound effect.

I’ve not heard of it causing prolactin issues personally (which also often causes sore nipples).

so my two questions would be:

1) how sure are you it is epistane?

2) have you been excessively playing with your nipples? (Genuine question, people often touch their nipples more on a first cycle ‘checking’ and make them sore that way)?
Thanks for getting back to me.

1. It is the new IBE epistane from a well known online vendor, but you're right, it could very well be something else.

2. I haven't been touching them because gyno honestly wasn't something I was concerned with due to epistanes reputation but I did work out in a wifebeater shirt yesterday which is something I dont usually do. Really hope it is just chafed from that, but I've been in my head about it all day so decided to post.
 

Dmulv21

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I've heard and seen this reported occassionally over the years.

2 things:

Yes, it is possible ANY time you mess with your hormones.

You don't know that it is gyno.
But I'd be careful.
Personally, I'd run Nolva with it and see how it goes, if it was me.
But I'd totally understand if you decide to bail, and PCT now.
Thanks for the reply. How would you dose the nolva? I was planning 20 mg ed until the sensitivity went away.
 
Renew1

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Thanks for the reply. How would you dose the nolva? I was planning 20 mg ed until the sensitivity went away.
That looks fine to me.
Hopefully it was just chafed.
 
Jinsun

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I did work out in a wifebeater shirt yesterday which is something I dont usually do.
Then it's probably not a problem, yet. Just be careful, it's a slippery slope.
 
AnabolicGuru

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Start taking the 20mg Nolva nightly now. If it’s still bugging you in 3-5 days I would drop the Epistane and just continue the Nolva as PCT for ~4 weeks.

Not worth gyno, trust me. You will definitely look & feel better with no muscles and no tits
I agree with this the most out of all the comments. I personally got gyno on epistane at around week 3-4 myself and was running nothing else; it’s definitely something that can happen. Just do what @Hyde recommended 100% and you’ll be fine.
 

Dmulv21

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Thanks for the replies. The pain and sensitivity seems to be increasing and is happening on the other nipple as well, so I'm going to drop the epistane and start pct. Planned pct was Nolva: 20/20/10/10/0/0
Exemestane: 12.5mg EOD. 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5. Is that the best course of action or should I up the nolva dose to deal with the gyno issue?
 
Whisky

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Thanks for the replies. The pain and sensitivity seems to be increasing and is happening on the other nipple as well, so I'm going to drop the epistane and start pct. Planned pct was Nolva: 20/20/10/10/0/0
Exemestane: 12.5mg EOD. 0/0/12.5/12.5/12.5/12.5. Is that the best course of action or should I up the nolva dose to deal with the gyno issue?
Nope, In my opinion you’ve got the asin dealing with the gyno so keep nolva as is. Monitor as you go mate. Personally asin is effective within a day for me so I’d expect improvements very soon.
 

Dmulv21

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Nope, In my opinion you’ve got the asin dealing with the gyno so keep nolva as is. Monitor as you go mate. Personally asin is effective within a day for me so I’d expect improvements very soon.
Okay, so I should start the asin now instead of waiting two weeks? Originally, I was planning on starting 2 weeks into pct and continue past the nolva to prevent rebound gyno but I should start now due to the gyno concern right?
 
Carnivorecon

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Okay, so I should start the asin now instead of waiting two weeks? Originally, I was planning on starting 2 weeks into pct and continue past the nolva to prevent rebound gyno but I should start now due to the gyno concern right?
Yh dude epi raped my nipples like a 400lb cell mate, couldn't even stand my t-shirt resting on em, they were fine after a 2 3 weeks though and didn't get any visual signs of gyno. The symptoms of low and high oestrogen are similar and epi crushes e2 hard, like others said lookout for any rebound spike!
 
Carnivorecon

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Okay, so I should start the asin now instead of waiting two weeks? Originally, I was planning on starting 2 weeks into pct and continue past the nolva to prevent rebound gyno but I should start now due to the gyno concern right?
Yh dude epi raped my nipples like a 400lb cell mate, couldn't even stand my t-shirt resting on em, they were fine after a 2 3 weeks though and didn't get any visual signs of gyno. The symptoms of low and high oestrogen are similar and epi crushes e2 hard, like others said lookout for any rebound spike!
 
Whisky

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Okay, so I should start the asin now instead of waiting two weeks? Originally, I was planning on starting 2 weeks into pct and continue past the nolva to prevent rebound gyno but I should start now due to the gyno concern right?
asin is an extremely effective ai and absolutely if your concern is gyno (high e) then yes you start it now (typically it would be run alongside test or anything that converts heavily to keep estro under control.
 

Dmulv21

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asin is an extremely effective ai and absolutely if your concern is gyno (high e) then yes you start it now (typically it would be run alongside test or anything that converts heavily to keep estro under control.
Thanks for the response whiskey,

I understand how asin works, I just figured my e would be low right now due to the epistane and that taking the asin would crush it completely. The above poster has me questioning whether it is really gyno or just uncomfortable nipple pain from low e. Anecdotally, epistane can cause gyno, which is weird considering it lowers e, but not sure how much asin would help if my e is already low.
 
Jinsun

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How can epi cause gyno??

Maybe it's not epi? Phera ...?
 
Carnivorecon

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Thanks for the response whiskey,

I understand how asin works, I just figured my e would be low right now due to the epistane and that taking the asin would crush it completely. The above poster has me questioning whether it is really gyno or just uncomfortable nipple pain from low e. Anecdotally, epistane can cause gyno, which is weird considering it lowers e, but not sure how much asin would help if my e is already low.
There's probably many that know better than me, but what I would be myself is just stick with the nolva for pct and leave the a.i. out. That way you can let your e2 and test balance come back to normal and the nolva will block e2 at the breast tissue anyway so it wouldn't matter if it gets high after you come off epi. My thinking is you've tanked e2 on cycle so to come off and keep tanking it with an a.i. makes no sense as you want to restore hormonal balance in pct that's the whole point, that's just my advice as it's how I would go about it.
 
AnabolicGuru

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How can epi cause gyno??

Maybe it's not epi? Phera ...?
I believe that anything with the potential to screw your hormones up (aas, sarms, ph, ds, mk677 etc) can all have the possibility of causing gyno and such. I’ve ran epistane twice; first time it was my first ever cycle and it gave me gyno. Second time I also began getting gyno symptoms but tossed in a serm and ai to help.
 
Whisky

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Thanks for the response whiskey,

I understand how asin works, I just figured my e would be low right now due to the epistane and that taking the asin would crush it completely. The above poster has me questioning whether it is really gyno or just uncomfortable nipple pain from low e. Anecdotally, epistane can cause gyno, which is weird considering it lowers e, but not sure how much asin would help if my e is already low.
here in lies the issue bro. I’ve personally not heard of low e causing nipple issues in men. Lots of the other symptoms of high estro and low estro are the same but not that one as far as I knew.

with no lumps forming behind my nipples I’d wonder if it was prolactin. There’s a relationship between estrogen and prolactin, whilst I know that high prolactin can decrease test in men and estrogen in women I don’t know if there is a mechanism which could cause low estrogen (from the epistane) to increase your prolactin (note I’m an totally speculating here bro, I don’t know this and you absolutely shouldn’t take my speculation as anything other than that).

so aside from getting bloods which is really the only way to know I’d be inclined to use some asin for a few days and monitor. If it’s estrogen I’d expect 12.5 Eod of asin to reduce or clear it within days. If no change personally I’d try 0.5 caber at that point. If that works it’s prolactin.

others will probably be better placed to give more technical explanations though
 
Jinsun

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Epi cant cause gyno. As far as I understand, epi is seldomly "faked" with a nother ph that converts to pheraplex. And thats where you get gyno. So, my guess is that most that get gyno from epi get it from prolactin ...
 
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Renew1

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Epi cant cause gyno. As far as I understand, epi is seldomly "faked" with a nother ph that converts to pheraplex. And thats where you get gyno. So, my guess is that most that get gyno from epi get it from high e2 ...
What's the name of that other "PH" that Epistane is faked with?

Epistane can and does sometimes cause gyno. I've seen it repeatedly. @AnabolicGuru even had it happen to him.
 
Jinsun

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What's the name of that other "PH" that Epistane is faked with?

Epistane can and does sometimes cause gyno. I've seen it repeatedly. @AnabolicGuru even had it happen to him.
I just did some quick research on this. And there seem to be a couple of "problems".

First, might be similar to Ostarines gyno problems. Whereas the anabolic compound acts strongly on shbg (thus freeing up a lot of test that later on converts to e2) but fails to act as an androgen (dht) that would counteract e2 at the breast tissue. This would be specifically pronunced at people who have high shbg to begin with at the start of the cycle.

The second problem is that epistane, under heat, apparently converts to DMT (pheraplex, not the psychoactive drug). Pheraplex can cause gyno by prolactin. How readily this conversion happens I don't know. I would asume that the older the bottle and the more the product wasnt produced with high production standards, the more chances are of this.

Thirdly, one epistane product was once found to be just straight up mixed with pheraplex. And judging from this, and knowing these supp companies can basically be "labs" in the owners garage, you can't trust what's in them at all.

And for the last point, this is what evolutionary (i know, i know ...) cites: "It is true that Epistane should never convert to the illegal Pheraplex. The only reason this ProHormone got a bad reputation for converting to a banned substance while sitting in storage for too long, is because some of the “cloned” Epistane products were using 17alpha-methyl 2beta,3beta-epithio 5alpha-androstane, instead of the real true compound: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol., which should never convert to Pheraplex ."

So, there are a lot of reasons why people seem to be getting gyno problems from epi products. If it is the first point, assuming that it's reall epi and nothing more, then the low shbg - high e2 problem should go away on it's own while the user's testosterone production gets suppressed. And the gyno problem should only show as itchy nipps and not proceed to lumps. This is however hard to predict, as some might get shutdown sooner then later. Also some people might be more probe to gyno then others. If you are getting itchy nipps from temporarily high e2, then you had some underlying gyno problems to begin with, probably. This is not uncommon at all.

If epistane is cycled with other compounds, then the first option should not happen at all. Either way, I wouldn't cycle epi due to all of this. Just buy some var or tbol or even sd, from a reputable ugl. Or do take epi but use it with a dht. But have some caber at hand if it does end up converting to pheraplex? Nah, to many variables ... just don't use epi at all : )
 
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Renew1

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I just did some quick research on this. And there seem to be a couple of "problems".

First, might be similar to Ostarines gyno problems. Whereas the anabolic compound acts strongly on shbg (thus freeing up a lot of test that later on converts to e2) but fails to act as an androgen (dht) that would counteract e2 at the breast tissue. This would be specifically pronunced at people who have high shbg to begin with at the start of the cycle.

The second problem is that epistane, under heat, apparently converts to DMT (pheraplex, not the psychoactive drug). Pheraplex can cause gyno by prolactin. How readily this conversion happens I don't know. I would asume that the older the bottle and the more the product wasnt produced with high production standards, the more chances are of this.

Thirdly, one epistane product was once found to be just straight up mixed with pheraplex. And judging from this, and knowing these supp companies can basically be "labs" in the owners garage, you can't trust what's in them at all.

And for the last point, this is what evolutionary (i know, i know ...) cites: "It is true that Epistane should never convert to the illegal Pheraplex. The only reason this ProHormone got a bad reputation for converting to a banned substance while sitting in storage for too long, is because some of the “cloned” Epistane products were using 17alpha-methyl 2beta,3beta-epithio 5alpha-androstane, instead of the real true compound: 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol., which should never convert to Pheraplex ."

So, there are a lot of reasons why people seem to be getting gyno problems from epi products. If it is the first point, assuming that it's reall epi and nothing more, then the low shbg - high e2 problem should go away on it's own while the user's testosterone production gets suppressed. And the gyno problem should only show as itchy nipps and not proceed to lumps. This is however hard to predict, as some might get shutdown sooner then later. Also some people might be more probe to gyno then others. If you are getting itchy nipps from temporarily high e2, then you had some underlying gyno problems to begin with, probably. This is not uncommon at all.

If epistane is cycled with other compounds, then the first option should not happen at all. Either way, I wouldn't cycle epi due to all of this. Just buy some var or tbol or even sd, from a reputable ugl. Or do take epi but use it with a dht. But have some caber at hand if it does end up converting to pheraplex? Nah, to many variables ... just don't use epi at all : )
Epistane is surprisingly hard on me man.
I haven't ran it in years.
But I am jealous of some of the guys who get amazing results from it, and love it.
 
wfreiling

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Epistane is surprisingly hard on me man.
I haven't ran it in years.
But I am jealous of some of the guys who get amazing results from it, and love it.
I have 2 OG btls of ibe epistane from like 2010 I think, this thread just made me even more weary to run them haha
 
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I have 2 OG btls of ibe epistane from like 2010 I think, this thread just made me even more weary to run them haha
LOL.
Careful man, you're likely to meet some new friends via PM with talk like that.
:)
 
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I have 2 OG btls of ibe epistane from like 2010 I think, this thread just made me even more weary to run them haha
It isn't hard on everybody.
Some people love running it.
 

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Ok since this is about gyno i have a question a bit off topic but figure someone will know a good answer. What exactly does gyno do and feel like. I have seen pics, heard people talk and explain it. Some say its just sore nipples, but yet others say you almost get lumps like tissue is developing or feels like breast cancer type lumps? Mine feel a little tender but just vary vary rarely and only usually for a day or so and i think its from a shirt rubbing against it as my estrogen does not run high and the highest it has been that i know of was 62 and that was on a cruise. It has been lower than 7 several times. Thought i would ask so i know what to look for and the prolactin crap seems like you need a degree to understand.
 
AnabolicGuru

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Ok since this is about gyno i have a question a bit off topic but figure someone will know a good answer. What exactly does gyno do and feel like. I have seen pics, heard people talk and explain it. Some say its just sore nipples, but yet others say you almost get lumps like tissue is developing or feels like breast cancer type lumps? Mine feel a little tender but just vary vary rarely and only usually for a day or so and i think its from a shirt rubbing against it as my estrogen does not run high and the highest it has been that i know of was 62 and that was on a cruise. It has been lower than 7 several times. Thought i would ask so i know what to look for and the prolactin crap seems like you need a degree to understand.
Real estrogen-related gyno will cause formation of actual breast tissue via stimulation of estrogen receptors within the breast glands. Symptoms for me are excessive itching of nipples, puffiness of nipples, pain in nipples, and finally formation of lumps in nipples.
 
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jtbull

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Real estrogen-related gyno will cause formation of actual breast tissue via stimulation of estrogen receptors within the breast glands. Symptoms for me are excessive itching of nipples, pain in nipples, puffiness of nipples, and finally lumps.
I know bloods are important and i think i have been told run them in week 6 on a 15 weeker. First run will be test and eq so i am not too worried about it, but i figure if feeling that use extra arimidex? also if you catch it early is it easily reversable or will you need surgery?
 
AnabolicGuru

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I know bloods are important and i think i have been told run them in week 6 on a 15 weeker. First run will be test and eq so i am not too worried about it, but i figure if feeling that use extra arimidex? also if you catch it early is it easily reversable or will you need surgery?
I run my aromatize inhibitors from day one; I’m a believer that within the first week on most aromatizing steroids that estrogen levels will be fairly elevated (given that you’re actually running a fair dose such at 400mg of test or something). I’m sure that if you treat it properly early enough during the beginning symptom stages such as itchiness, puffiness, etc that you’d be able to stop it. There’s countless studies where they treat people that have had gyno for long periods of time and usage of raloxifene, nolvadex, and even letrozole and have had fair progress, but studies wont always correlate to real life experiences.
 

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I run my aromatize inhibitors from day one; I’m a believer that within the first week on most aromatizing steroids that estrogen levels will be fairly elevated (given that you’re actually running a fair dose such at 400mg of test or something). I’m sure that if you treat it properly early enough during the beginning symptom stages such as itchiness, puffiness, etc that you’d be able to stop it. There’s countless studies where they treat people that have had gyno for long periods of time and usage of raloxifene, nolvadex, and even letrozole and have had fair progress, but studies wont always correlate to real life experiences.
so have you found that from trial and error? It seems many make it out to be that you need to get a "sweet spot" with the Ai and honestly just starting i am not sure. I figure next cycle ( when gyms open) ill be on 500/500 test/eq for 15 weeks and probably will start with .5 arimidex 2 times a week. If i decide to run 4 weeks of dbol ill up to 1mg twice a week as i hear that stuff ( the dbol) will be the most estrogenic compound i am running.
 
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From memory any issues with gyno and epistane were normally in pct from a rebound effect.

I’ve not heard of it causing prolactin issues personally (which also often causes sore nipples).

so my two questions would be:

1) how sure are you it is epistane?

2) have you been excessively playing with your nipples? (Genuine question, people often touch their nipples more on a first cycle ‘checking’ and make them sore that way)?
Exactly epistane is famous for causing rebound gyno. If you're getting lumps on cycle throw in some nolvadex 10-15 mg daily to block the receptors from giving the estro a place to dock.
 
Jinsun

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so have you found that from trial and error? It seems many make it out to be that you need to get a "sweet spot" with the Ai and honestly just starting i am not sure. I figure next cycle ( when gyms open) ill be on 500/500 test/eq for 15 weeks and probably will start with .5 arimidex 2 times a week. If i decide to run 4 weeks of dbol ill up to 1mg twice a week as i hear that stuff ( the dbol) will be the most estrogenic compound i am running.
There are varying opinions on this. Most current opinion is that estrogen levels need to reflect other androgen levels: if you have high dht/test levels, you need higher e2 levels. Me personally, I go by feel. But don't let e2 creep above 40.
 

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There are varying opinions on this. Most current opinion is that estrogen levels need to reflect other androgen levels: if you have high dht/test levels, you need higher e2 levels. Me personally, I go by feel. But don't let e2 creep above 40.
Thanks so my 62 is a bit high with 1249 test. That is a cruise trt no arimidex. I just started taking .5mg arimidex 2 times a week figure that should get me down a bit.
 

jtbull

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Exactly epistane is famous for causing rebound gyno. If you're getting lumps on cycle throw in some nolvadex 10-15 mg daily to block the receptors from giving the estro a place to dock.
So i know arimidex and novaldex are different things but could dex be used here the same way or novaldex? I know how to use novaldex with pct, but I do not get how to use it on cycle. Does it crush estrogen the way arimidex can
 
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So i know arimidex and novaldex are different things but could dex be used here the same way or novaldex? I know how to use novaldex with pct, but I do not get how to use it on cycle. Does it crush estrogen the way arimidex can
No, Nolvadex doesn't lower Estrogen.

It selectively blocks Estrogen, so if you have a gyno emergency during a cycle (or anytime), you can run some Nolva to (in most cases) stop gyno, until you get the cause straightened out.
 
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Thanks so my 62 is a bit high with 1249 test. That is a cruise trt no arimidex. I just started taking .5mg arimidex 2 times a week figure that should get me down a bit.
If you aren’t having any estro issues then that’s not too high at all bro. Up to 80 or so to really grow 😄
 

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No, Nolvadex doesn't lower Estrogen.

It selectively blocks Estrogen, so if you have a gyno emergency during a cycle (or anytime), you can run some Nolva to (in most cases) stop gyno, until you get the cause straightened out.
Ok so with a flare up taking extra arimidex will not help? Also with what you mentioned i am so damn confused about the difference in how arimidex and novaldex help during a cycle???????????? aslo i dont have any novaldex but have some clomid. Does that do that same as novaldex and if i get some how much is a typical dose per week if gyno happens? I have not had issues iwth gyno so far.
 
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Ok so with a flare up taking extra arimidex will not help? Also with what you mentioned i am so damn confused about the difference in how arimidex and novaldex help during a cycle???????????? aslo i dont have any novaldex but have some clomid. Does that do that same as novaldex and if i get some how much is a typical dose per week if gyno happens? I have not had issues iwth gyno so far.
Extra Arimidex will help, because it will reduce conversion of Test to Estrogen. AIs (like Arimidex) reduce circulating E.

SERMs block E (selectively) at the receptor, they do not reduce E in your body.
Nolva is better than Clomid at this.

So... Nobody wants a TON of E in their body, even if it is blocked from causing gyno.
Therefore (many times) AIs are utilized to keep E under control.
If you have an emergency, and need to put the brakes on gyno NOW, Nolva is great for that.

Make sense?
 

jtbull

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Extra Arimidex will help, because it will reduce conversion of Test to Estrogen. AIs (like Arimidex) reduce circulating E.

SERMs block E (selectively) at the receptor, they do not reduce E in your body.
Nolva is better than Clomid at this.

So... Nobody wants a TON of E in their body, even if it is blocked from causing gyno.
Therefore (many times) AIs are utilized to keep E under control.
If you have an emergency, and need to put the brakes on gyno NOW, Nolva is great for that.

Make sense?
On the nolva yes. I always get confuesd on how much estrogen to have i have had people tell me with no sides ( i dont have any yet) let hte pony run until its in the 80s with no AI 200mg test trt gave me like 62. I thought that was high so i started taking .5 arimidex twice a week to see where it put me. Is there sweet spots for estrogen i should know? Also will not taking an ai mean the test keeps going and going and going? It does seem you need some estrogen for sex drive. Even when mine was like a 7 I did not feel the dryness many talk about.

Covid put cycles on hold, but i do know the next i run which will prbably be after september will be at least 16 weeks and i will be getting bloods at week 6 i think people say is good. IT will be about 500mg of test and some eq or deca/npp pre mix maybe an oral starter and oral finisher and i figure i will start with .5mg 2 times a week.
 

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