Fine-tuning my upcoming TBol cycle

[SpicedCider]

So, some of you guys may already know that I am planning on running a TBol cycle starting (most likely) during the second week of November. My tentative plan is to run it alongside toremifene at 60 mg/day (or would EOD be sufficient?) throughout the cycle to potentially prevent shutdown of LH production and thus make recovery during PCT easier. Here is what I'm thinking in terms of dosing for the TBol:

Weeks 1 - 4: 50 mg/day
Weeks 5 - 6: 70 mg/day
Weeks 7 - 8: 80 mg/day

I am definitely open to reconfiguring my dosing regimen if you guys think my daily doses towards the end of the cycle look too high (or not high enough?!).

I also have a few other ancillaries on hand that I'm considering incorporating into the cycle as well:

- A single 10,000 IU bottle of HCG -- some guys say it's a good idea to inject something like 250 IU's 2x/wk during the cycle, and someone posted links to several studies that indicate that it may help prevent shutdown of testosterone production (if I'm thinking of the right studies). On the other hand, though, a few other posters here said not to take it because it could be suppressive, so I'm not sure what to do in regards to on-cycle HCG use.

- Proviron tabs, 50 mg -- I'm thinking about taking 100 - 150 mg for a preworkout/strength boost on gym days, or possibly every day during the last few weeks of the cycle to get more of a hard/dry/shredded look.

- Winstrol tabs, 25 mg -- really not sure whether to make Winstrol part of my cycle or not. I do a fair amount of cardio almost every day of the week (might do a bit less during the cycle), so I'm thinking about taking a low dose of Winstrol during the last few weeks to get more dry and shredded-looking. However, if I do this, I probably won't take Proviron during the last few weeks as well. I'm not sure if it's worth dealing with the additional side effects of Winstrol, though, since my cycle will be wrapping up in January and it's not like I'll be walking around half-naked with my shirt off. I'm planning on running the same cycle again in March to lead into the summer with, so I might save the Winstrol for the next cycle.

PCT -- Simply continue with taking Toremifene at 60 mg/day for a few more weeks. Also have Nolvadex (20 mg/ml) on hand in case I need something stronger.

Curious to get you guys' input. This will be my first steroid cycle, having only previously run a single cycle each of ostarine and RAD-140. I got decently toned-up with the ostarine, but even though the RAD-140 was a little more effective in terms of making me fuller-looking and stronger, the psychological effects (depression, destroyed self-esteem, lethargy) were so bad that I figured I might as well just run legit AAS and actually get something substantial in terms of results in exchange for putting up with side effects.

Thanks in advance for any advice/critiques/suggestions

 

[mixedup]

8 weeks on an 17aa oral is kind of long unless you've done it before and your blood work came back fine

 

[SpicedCider]

Never done it before... probably going to take TUDCA/UDCA, but won't be drinking alcohol at all.

 

[Jinsun]

To high doses to not get shuttdown. Try going from 25 and at week 6 end at 50. Forget viro , yoh'll need all the estrogen you can get and deffo forget winny if you do t want to get shuttdown.

 

[Smont]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

 

[SpicedCider]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

To high doses to not get shuttdown. Try going from 25 and at week 6 end at 50. Forget viro , yoh'll need all the estrogen you can get and deffo forget winny if you do t want to get shuttdown.

So 50 mg/ day is too high of a daily dose? Based on the research I've done, I was under the impression that 50 mg was a relatively standard starting dose. I'm assuming that 8 weeks is also way too long? Do you think I should just drop the SERM entirely? How about the HCG?

 

[SpicedCider]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

I want to get post-cycle bloodwork done but probably won't have time to get pre-cycle work done, unfortunately.

 

[AnabolicGuru]

I think the cycle is a bit overkill as well. Definitely agree with mixedup that 8 weeks is too long. 60mg for 6 weeks should be more than enough if your tbol is legit. I ran it 40mg for 25 days and got plenty out of it, and even ran a cycle log.

 

[Jinsun]

I believe that with small dosages a serm on cycle will help and that with normal dosages you will get suppressed but a bit later on in the cycle.

This is why I'm saying to go with 25 and end with 50. 50 will imo suppress or shut you down most definitely. If you really don't want to get shuttdown do a 6 - 8 week 25mg cycle. You wont get a lot from the cycle but you will get something!

I would never do a 50+mg tbol cycle withouth a test base. So no, don't drop the serm. But please do bloods. If you'll be doing 8 weeks do them at week 4 and week 8.

 

[SpicedCider]

I believe that with small dosages a serm on cycle will help and that with normal dosages you will get suppressed but a bit later on in the cycle.

This is why I'm saying to go with 25 and end with 50. 50 will imo suppress or shut you down most definitely. If you really don't want to get shuttdown do a 6 - 8 week 25mg cycle. You wont get a lot from the cycle but you will get something!

I would never do a 50+mg tbol cycle withouth a test base. So no, don't drop the serm. But please do bloods. If you'll be doing 8 weeks do them at week 4 and week 8.

Let's say I decided I actually wanted to run a test base during my cycle. Would something like Dermacrine be enough, or would I most likely need something stronger, like Musclegelz Androhard? Or is test e/test cyp pretty much my only option with something like TBol?

 

[AnabolicGuru]

Let's say I decided I actually wanted to run a test base during my cycle. Would something like Dermacrine be enough, or would I most likely need something stronger, like Musclegelz Androhard? Or is test e/test cyp pretty much my only option with something like TBol?

4andro would probably work fine. I found dermacrine to be overrated imo.

 

[BloodManor]

Let's say I decided I actually wanted to run a test base during my cycle. Would something like Dermacrine be enough, or would I most likely need something stronger, like Musclegelz Androhard? Or is test e/test cyp pretty much my only option with something like TBol?

A good 4 andro supp like chemical 4 would do wonders on your run

 

[Jinsun]

Tbh if you want to run a proper, "neat" cycle use test and do a proper cycle of 12 weeks 500mg T and 6 weeks kick start tbol 50 - 75mg. You will get 100% shuttdown with tbol and 4ad or some other oral. So might just as well make the most out of it.

 

[BarryScott]

Tbh if you want to run a proper, "neat" cycle use test and do a proper cycle of 12 weeks 500mg T and 6 weeks kick start tbol 50 - 75mg. You will get 100% shuttdown with tbol and 4ad or some other oral. So might just as well make the most out of it.

What if you can't/don't want to pin?

 

[mixedup]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

What test is needed I got precycle blood work before my current blast. I just have to know what test to ask my dr forr

 

[SpicedCider]

A good 4 andro supp like chemical 4 would do wonders on your run

Would 8 weeks be too long to run the TBol if I run a test base like that alongside it? I mean, shutdown is going to happen either way, right?

 

[SpicedCider]

Tbh if you want to run a proper, "neat" cycle use test and do a proper cycle of 12 weeks 500mg T and 6 weeks kick start tbol 50 - 75mg. You will get 100% shuttdown with tbol and 4ad or some other oral. So might just as well make the most out of it.

The thing is, I was wanting to run two cycles before next summer, so a 12-week cycle would throw off that schedule/plan (unless I make the second cycle really short?). But if I'm going to be shutdown by the end of the cycle either way (even if I ran a cycle of pure test and nothing else), would it be a bad idea to run the TBol for 8 wks if I'll also be taking a test base?

 

[mixedup]

Would 8 weeks be too long to run the TBol if I run a test base like that alongside it? I mean, shutdown is going to happen either way, right?

Yes it's too long it's not about getting shutdown it's about the toxicity

 

[Jinsun]

There is nothing wrong with 6 week cycles, you just wont gain that much as you would on a longer one. If you want to do two cycles I perfectly understand. Just do the 6 week tbol cycle at a moderate dose and add something that will help you with lethargy: an E2/DHT base. You've got lot's of options, even if you don't want to pin: trest, dbol, 4ad... I personally wouldn't bother with dermacrine. My experience with 4ad wasn't that good. My E2 still crashed in spite of allegedly 300mg's of it. I like dbol, so I would take 10mg's of it. Plus it's cheap.

You could however just take the serm with the high doses and see how that works out for you and have a base at hand if it gets to rough. Bouncing back this way is going to be easier if you would have taken a test base from day 1.

You could also do superdrol at 10 - 20mg for 3 to 4 weeks. That would beat tbol in gains department.

 

[SpicedCider]

Thanks for the advice Jinsun. Just to clarify, is the point of taking a supplement for estrogen because of the fact that I'll be taking a SERM while on cycle? Or would you recommend taking something for estrogen even if I was just taking TBol without the SERM?

Thanks

 

[Jinsun]

Thanks for the advice Jinsun. Just to clarify, is the point of taking a supplement for estrogen because of the fact that I'll be taking a SERM while on cycle? Or would you recommend taking something for estrogen even if I was just taking TBol without the SERM?

Thanks

Hm, I didn't recommend an Ai. I wouldn't use it, as you don't have an arometising compound in your stack. If you add test base then ypu'll need it, maybe.

 

[SpicedCider]

Hm, I didn't recommend an Ai. I wouldn't use it, as you don't have an arometising compound in your stack. If you add test base then ypu'll need it, maybe.

Sorry, I meant in regards to your recommendation to take something for the purpose of keeping E2 levels in the normal range (unless I misread your post?).

 

[Jinsun]

Sorry, I meant in regards to your recommendation to take something for the purpose of keeping E2 levels in the normal range (unless I misread your post?).

Oh I see. That was referring to a test base. A test base is an e2/DHT base. Those are the androgens that will be missing. You don't need test per-se, as you'll have tbol. You need e2 and dht...

 

[SpicedCider]

Oh I see. That was referring to a test base. A test base is an e2/DHT base. Those are the androgens that will be missing. You don't need test per-se, as you'll have tbol. You need e2 and dht...

Got it, thanks. BTW, what do you think about injecting 250 iu/week of HCG? I understand that a few studies seem to suggest that it could prevent shutdown, but at the same time, a lot of guys here are against using it on cycle... so I'm torn on whether or not to use it.

 

[Jinsun]

Got it, thanks. BTW, what do you think about injecting 250 iu/week of HCG? I understand that a few studies seem to suggest that it could prevent shutdown, but at the same time, a lot of guys here are against using it on cycle... so I'm torn on whether or not to use it.

HCG is great, it's the best thing to use for preventing testicular atrophy during cycle. 250iu/week is not enough. HCG has a short half life of 36h, so a recommended regime would be 250IU every 36h. That's how I take it.

Are you asking about HCG as a test base? I don't know how much you would need to inject for that purpose ...

 

[Smont]

Got it, thanks. BTW, what do you think about injecting 250 iu/week of HCG? I understand that a few studies seem to suggest that it could prevent shutdown, but at the same time, a lot of guys here are against using it on cycle... so I'm torn on whether or not to use it.

Hcg don't prevent shutdown

 

[bigbeaph]

Hcg don't prevent shutdown

Wouldn't using hcg to continue the lh/fsh signal prevent a COMPLETE shutdown? I tried this last cycle and bounced back much quicker post. Kinda thought that's how it would work....getting ready to start up again and going to get much more frequent bloodwork to see how it really effects me but.....maybe I have been completely wrong with my thinking? Should have been more on top of bloodwork last run - I got lazy

 

[Jinsun]

No, HCG mimics LH and thus helps in suppressing endogenous LH production. If you want to stimulate LH you need to pin GnRh.

Ypu bounced back easier bc HCG keeps your testies alive, so they were ready to produce test as soon as the body started producing LH. Otherwise it takes a bit more time till the testicles can start producing T at a higher rate.

 

[bigbeaph]

No, HCG mimics LH and thus helps in suppressing endogenous LH production. If you want to stimulate LH you need to pin GnRh.

Ypu bounced back easier bc HCG keeps your testies alive, so they were ready to produce test as soon as the body started producing LH. Otherwise it takes a bit more time till the testicles can start producing T at a higher rate.

I didnt explain my thought well. I understand that it mimics lh. But if the lh tells the testes to "turn on" then hcg would continue the signal without natural LH signal being present. So the testes would continue to be told to work, if even very little, even with the presence of exogenous testosterone. Hence why you have much less testicular atrophy while using hcg. Because the testes are not 100% shut down. No? Dont mean to derail the topic too much but want to pick you smart guys brains....

 

[bigbeaph]

Also why I was able to get my wife pregnant 12-13 weeks into a heavy test cycle...because hcg was keeping some natural test and sperm production going, right?

 

[SpicedCider]

I think my logic (possibly faulty?) for considering the use of HCG on cycle is sort of similar to your line of thinking. This is what I was thinking: if the HCG keeps your testes alive by mimicking LH, and if the use of a SERM on cycle may prevent the total shutdown of LH production, then following the conclusion of the cycle, it should reason that the process of transitioning into recovery/PCT will be extremely smooth (maybe seamless?) considering that the testes will already be functioning, right? Technically, the recovery process should be very quick, right?

 

[bigbeaph]

I think my logic (possibly faulty?) for considering the use of HCG on cycle is sort of similar to your line of thinking. This is what I was thinking: if the HCG keeps your testes alive by mimicking LH, and if the use of a SERM on cycle may prevent the total shutdown of LH production, then following the conclusion of the cycle, it should reason that the process of transitioning into recovery/PCT will be extremely smooth (maybe seamless?) considering that the testes will already be functioning, right? Technically, the recovery process should be very quick, right?

100% my experience. Like I said - even got my wife pregnant after 3 months of running 900mg/ test....should have been shut down. HOWEVER, I dont have bloods to back this up. Only the way I felt and the overall experience. I'm about to jump on and will run bloods frequently so I can post them here and show exactly what it does - for me at least. And I wouldnt say seamless. But it SEEMED more like instead of a slow and steady return to normal during pct it was a much more accelerated normalization. I have become a huge advocate of hcg throughout cycle. I'll never run again without it. Also seems to keep sex drive alive and well during cycle. It has become as important to me as a good supply of exem. Plus you dont have to use much at all.

 

[SpicedCider]

100% my experience. Like I said - even got my wife pregnant after 3 months of running 900mg/ test....should have been shut down. HOWEVER, I dont have bloods to back this up. Only the way I felt and the overall experience. I'm about to jump on and will run bloods frequently so I can post them here and show exactly what it does - for me at least. And I wouldnt say seamless. But it SEEMED more like instead of a slow and steady return to normal during pct it was a much more accelerated normalization. I have become a huge advocate of hcg throughout cycle. I'll never run again without it. Also seems to keep sex drive alive and well during cycle. It has become as important to me as a good supply of exem. Plus you dont have to use much at all.

Good luck with the upcoming cycle, and thanks for posting about your previous experience. At this point, I'm thinking that I'm going to take 60 mg of toremifene EOD (not sure if every day is necessary?), along with 250 iu of HCG at least 2x/week. Going to be interesting to see how I feel several weeks in on that regimen.

 

[Jinsun]

I didnt explain my thought well. I understand that it mimics lh. But if the lh tells the testes to "turn on" then hcg would continue the signal without natural LH signal being present. So the testes would continue to be told to work, if even very little, even with the presence of exogenous testosterone. Hence why you have much less testicular atrophy while using hcg. Because the testes are not 100% shut down. No? Dont mean to derail the topic too much but want to pick you smart guys brains....

Literary whait I said in the post you quoted and in a post at the end of page 1...

Again: HCG has a half life of 36h, take it at least every 36h in order to provide a stable stimulus to the testes.

Good luck with your cycle!

 

[bigbeaph]

Literary whait I said in the post you quoted and in a post at the end of page 1...

Again: HCG has a half life of 36h, take it at least every 36h in order to provide a stable stimulus to the testes.

Good luck with your cycle!

Dont know how I misread all that - just got my brain twisted when you corrected me. thanks for straightening me out Junsun!

 

[SpicedCider]

Here is a good study to briefly read over -- guys on 200 mg/wk of test cyp who also injected HCG eod experienced less of a decrease in intratesticular testosterone levels than guys who didn't inject HCG:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Retrieve&dopt=AbstractPlus&list_uids=15713727&query_hl=1&itool=pubmed_docsum

 

[RickyBlobby]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

If you don't buy it you should really read the clomid on cycle thread. There are several users that got bloodwork back with T levels in normal range. And several others whose T levels were sub par yet LH and FSH were good and according to them they had a much, much smoother PCT than without a SERM on cycle.

So 50 mg/ day is too high of a daily dose? Based on the research I've done, I was under the impression that 50 mg was a relatively standard starting dose. I'm assuming that 8 weeks is also way too long? Do you think I should just drop the SERM entirely? How about the HCG?

50mg is a good dose. If you wanted to go higher than that I'd say 75mg for a max of 1 week at the end. Should boost your gains, it is unclear whether or not this will have a significant effect on your recovery.

Would 8 weeks be too long to run the TBol if I run a test base like that alongside it? I mean, shutdown is going to happen either way, right?

The general concensus is 6 weeks max for orals but personally I find 8 weeks to be the sweet spot.

Hm, I didn't recommend an Ai. I wouldn't use it, as you don't have an arometising compound in your stack. If you add test base then ypu'll need it, maybe.

This.

 

[Smont]

If you don't buy it you should really read the clomid on cycle thread. There are several users that got bloodwork back with T levels in normal range. And several others whose T levels were sub par yet LH and FSH were good and according to them they had a much, much smoother PCT than without a SERM on cycle.


50mg is a good dose. If you wanted to go higher than that I'd say 75mg for a max of 1 week at the end. Should boost your gains, it is unclear whether or not this will have a significant effect on your recovery.


The general concensus is 6 weeks max for orals but personally I find 8 weeks to be the sweet spot.


This.

Did they post the bloodwork or is it just ppl talking about it. If there's actual bloods posted I would love to check it out

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using AnabolicMinds mobile app

 

[Smont]

It's like 139pages so I can't go through every page . I've seen many threads on that topic and they always have a bunch of ppl saying they got bloods but for some reason they all refuse to post there bloodwork. Makes no sense to me

 

[RickyBlobby]

I don't buy the serm on cycle crap. I've yet to see one person actually show there bloodwork proving it works. Don't get me wrong, I would love if it does but I'd rather stick to the norm. Do you plan on getting bloodwork done?

So 50 mg/ day is too high of a daily dose? Based on the research I've done, I was under the impression that 50 mg was a relatively standard starting dose. I'm assuming that 8 weeks is also way too long? Do you think I should just drop the SERM entirely? How about the HCG?

Would 8 weeks be too long to run the TBol if I run a test base like that alongside it? I mean, shutdown is going to happen either way, right?

Hm, I didn't recommend an Ai. I wouldn't use it, as you don't have an arometising compound in your stack. If you add test base then ypu'll need it, maybe.

Did they post the bloodwork or is it just ppl talking about it. If there's actual bloods posted I would love to check it out

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-J120A using AnabolicMinds mobile app

I'm not sure how many guys actually snapped photos of the paperwork and posted it. But there are at least 10 people who claim to have had bloodwork and I don't see any incentive for lying. I had bloodwork done with outstanding results and I have nothing to gain by lying.
Hiddengains is another user who comes to mind, he had pre and intra cycle bloodwork and his T level came back good after 10 weeks of LGD and sparse nolva dosing

 

[50Magnum]

I'm getting some var and t bol from a friend soon. Was wondering if I should either run hcg while on cycle to keep balls working for the moment or just do toremifene since I do have toremifene on hand. I know its best to run a test base with these; but I'm kind of worried that my HPTA wont be back to normal after coming off test since it literally shuts you down to 0; while var and t bol suppresses you down(well can shut you down too on big doses); but I am ok with like 60-70% suppression of natty test levels as long as I can rebound very quickly after pct. What you think Ricky?

 

[RickyBlobby]

I'm getting some var and t bol from a friend soon. Was wondering if I should either run hcg while on cycle to keep balls working for the moment or just do toremifene since I do have toremifene on hand. I know its best to run a test base with these; but I'm kind of worried that my HPTA wont be back to normal after coming off test since it literally shuts you down to 0; while var and t bol suppresses you down(well can shut you down too on big doses); but I am ok with like 60-70% suppression of natty test levels as long as I can rebound very quickly after pct. What you think Ricky?

I would use torem with every cycle if I wasn't on TRT. Most users report feeling good throughout the cycle and PCT being easier than ever.