FDA: B-NMN Can No Longer Be Sold as a Dietary Supplement in the US

[Stachio]

https://healthnews.com/longevity/longevity-supplements/fda-b-nmn-can-no-longer-be-sold-as-a-dietary-supplement-in-the-us/

 

[Burnfire]

Knew it was a matter of time til they started taking more and more.

 

[Ape McGrapes]

Scary.

 

[DarkHelix]

Bet you might have to get it via sources like you would with gear.

 

[Sparta12]

Is this because it works and they want to make more profit off it?

 

[sns8778]

https://healthnews.com/longevity/longevity-supplements/fda-b-nmn-can-no-longer-be-sold-as-a-dietary-supplement-in-the-us/

I think its important that people realize that this isn't anything new past what they'd already stated when you did the original thread on this subject: https://anabolicminds.com/community/threads/nmn-fda-says-not-a-dietary-supplement.330959/

It's cool to post an update on it though - but stuff like this is going to happen and its going to go thru the motions.

We had been considering using it in an product next year and won't now unless this is clarified, but this situation is going to take a whole to play out. Even Amazon who usually jumps the gun every time the FDA even looks at an ingredient funny hasn't removed NMN yet.

BUT I also want to caution people that a lot of the NMN supplements on the market aren't what they're supposed to be anyway.

When buying NMN, if you haven't heard of the company or don't really trust the company you're getting it from, I'd be leery.

And if the price is substantially less than everyone else's, then its not what its supposed to be.

NMN raw materials are not cheap and there are companies right now that I just saw on Amazon when I checked to see if it was on there that if you took cost of raw materials + Amazon fees and looked at the selling price, its obvious that its not legit.

 

[Russianstarr]

Always the same, good job we can ship to the states from the uk

 

[Tunaking14]

What are some recommended brands of this? I'd like to stock up before the ban.

 

[Russianstarr]

What are some recommended brands of this? I'd like to stock up before the ban.

Ours is really good, no additives

 

[sns8778]

What are some recommended brands of this? I'd like to stock up before the ban.

Most of the legitimate companies have already long stopped making it.

The reason for that is no cGMP contract manufacturer can risk allowing the raw materials even inside their facility anymore and after the FDA statement companies risk losing their insurance and credit card processing if they continue - that's why you saw it disappear from many so quickly.

Quality, or lack thereof, was already a huge huge issue with this ingredient and a lot of brands weren't meeting labels claims or even coming close to begin with.

A good rule to go by with this is that if you haven't seen the brand, don't know the brand, and don't trust the brand, I wouldn't trust that it would meet label claims. You would be more likely to find a retailer that may still have stock of a reputable brand that stopped making it than to find someone currently making it now.

I'm not speaking negatively towards anyone - I'm just stating facts in the industry right now. When the FDA makes a statement like that, sometimes credit card processors jump quickly, like they did in this case, and most brands cannot risk losing their ability to accept credit cards over it.

 

[Russianstarr]

Most of the legitimate companies have already long stopped making it.

The reason for that is no cGMP contract manufacturer can risk allowing the raw materials even inside their facility anymore and after the FDA statement companies risk losing their insurance and credit card processing if they continue - that's why you saw it disappear from many so quickly.

Quality, or lack thereof, was already a huge huge issue with this ingredient and a lot of brands weren't meeting labels claims or even coming close to begin with.

A good rule to go by with this is that if you haven't seen the brand, don't know the brand, and don't trust the brand, I wouldn't trust that it would meet label claims. You would be more likely to find a retailer that may still have stock of a reputable brand that stopped making it than to find someone currently making it now.

I'm not speaking negatively towards anyone - I'm just stating facts in the industry right now. When the FDA makes a statement like that, sometimes credit card processors jump quickly, like they did in this case, and most brands cannot risk losing their ability to accept credit cards over it.

That's not the case in the UK.

 

[sns8778]

That's not the case in the UK.

The person that I replied to is in the US and I absolutely positively am not going to suggest to anyone to try to import something through US Customs during the most Customs inspecting heavy time of the year that the FDA has issued numerous advisories against.

And my quality points still stand - this is widely regarded as one of the most problematic raw materials in the supplement industry in terms of not testing out properly and meeting label claims.

It is/was literally so heavily counterfeited that you could buy bulk capsules and labels off Alibaba and people were bottling it themselves and calling themselves a supplement brands - with no quality testing nor heavy metals or microbial testing.

I get that you want to push your brand, but you're not a sponsor here. If you really want to push NMN here, become a sponsor and send out a sealed bottle of your NMN to Eurofins for independent testing and post the results.

 

[Hyde]

The person that I replied to is in the US and I absolutely positively am not going to suggest to anyone to try to import something through US Customs during the most Customs inspecting heavy time of the year that the FDA has issued numerous advisories against.

And my quality points still stand - this is widely regarded as one of the most problematic raw materials in the supplement industry in terms of not testing out properly and meeting label claims.

It is/was literally so heavily counterfeited that you could buy bulk capsules and labels off Alibaba and people were bottling it themselves and calling themselves a supplement brands - with no quality testing nor heavy metals or microbial testing.

I get that you want to push your brand, but you're not a sponsor here. If you really want to push NMN here, become a sponsor and send out a sealed bottle of your NMN to Eurofins for independent testing and post the results.

^Good points.

We would love to have more quality sponsors here on AM, people who make good products & can stand behind them.

 

[Tunaking14]

I saw some by Nutricost and I thought they were a legit brand but wasn't sure. Also NutriVita Shop which I also thought was legit but I've never bought anything from either company.

 

[sns8778]

I saw some by Nutricost and I thought they were a legit brand but wasn't sure. Also NutriVita Shop which I also thought was legit but I've never bought anything from either company.

Honestly, unless you're a super fan of this ingredient, I wouldn't stock up on it.

For me personally, I've seen info on some new things that will be coming out within the next 6 months or so that I'm much more interested in than NMN honestly.

 

[Tunaking14]

Honestly, unless you're a super fan of this ingredient, I wouldn't stock up on it.

For me personally, I've seen info on some new things that will be coming out within the next 6 months or so that I'm much more interested in than NMN honestly.

Good idea. I just thought maybe it would be worth it but if you say some new things are coming then I'll wait. I've never tried it but had it on my long list! lol! My closet looks like a Vitamin Shoppe so I'm trying to narrow my stash down and concentrate more on long term health/daily supplements.

 

[sns8778]

Good idea. I just thought maybe it would be worth it but if you say some new things are coming then I'll wait. I've never tried it but had it on my long list! lol! My closet looks like a Vitamin Shoppe so I'm trying to narrow my stash down and concentrate more on long term health/daily supplements.

Honestly, most people can't tell a big difference with it unless mega dosing it - some can, but most people using NMN, its kind of like taking something and hoping it helps you down the road but without really knowing if its going to or not. Some people do say that they feel better on it, but then I've known of some people that to use a high enough dose to feel it, it makes them quite agitated.

I'll tell you that legit NMN high dosed, it took me less than a week to realize I was probably going to slap the hell out of someone if I kept taking it, and you know me, I'm a pretty laid back person so that was surprising. So definitely not something I'd buy a bunch of without knowing how it affects you.

If you're wanting something that more people can actually feel a difference with and has a lot of long term benefits, I would look at Urolithin-B XT and the feedback on it.

Here are a couple of links:

Urolithin-B: Seriously Underated - AnabolicMinds.com

I am now on my second run of Urolithin-B and again I am noticing a major boost in energy, strength, pump, all day fullness and over gut health. I have been supplementing for over 30 years and this is right up there in my all-time top 5. I've done a bunch of runs of Urolithin A and only get a...

anabolicminds.com

SNS Urolithin-B XT - 150 mg. Urolithin B Per Capsule - Now Available - AnabolicMinds.com

Lean Muscle, Strength, & Improved Recovery 150 mg. Urolithin-B Per Capsule Urolithin-B is a unique ingredient that has been shown to have both potential anabolic and anti-catabolic properties and can be used to help support increase in lean muscle & strength and optimal muscle recovery...

anabolicminds.com

As far as NMN type supplements, I've seen several branded ingredients that aren't available yet but that I was asked to review the science for that I like the premise of much better than NMN, and those I would expect out within the next 6 months or so.

 

[Danksta710]

Honestly, unless you're a super fan of this ingredient, I wouldn't stock up on it.

For me personally, I've seen info on some new things that will be coming out within the next 6 months or so that I'm much more interested in than NMN honestly.

Nicotinamide riboside looks more interesting imo. What are your thoughts?

 

[sns8778]

Nicotinamide riboside looks more interesting imo. What are your thoughts?

That it has great marketing and a ton of lawsuits and legal battles surrounding it at the moment.

Chromadex and Thorne have been engaged in a legal battle over this for awhile with rulings happening, getting overturned, etc.

As for the ingredient itself, I've never been as big of a fan of the science behind it or NMN as some people - not that they don't work, I just tend to quantify results versus price and look at the real science versus marketing myself.

I'll say that I didn't respond well to the feel of either, in the sense that I can't feel anything from them; except NMN at high dosages making me want to kill people haha.

There are a few ingredients that are going to be coming out in this category over the next 6 to 8 months, not from us, I mean from ingredient suppliers that I think are very interesting.

 

[BCseacow83]

That it has great marketing and a ton of lawsuits and legal battles surrounding it at the moment.

Chromadex and Thorne have been engaged in a legal battle over this for awhile with rulings happening, getting overturned, etc.

As for the ingredient itself, I've never been as big of a fan of the science behind it or NMN as some people - not that they don't work, I just tend to quantify results versus price and look at the real science versus marketing myself.

I'll say that I didn't respond well to the feel of either, in the sense that I can't feel anything from them; except NMN at high dosages making me want to kill people haha.

There are a few ingredients that are going to be coming out in this category over the next 6 to 8 months, not from us, I mean from ingredient suppliers that I think are very interesting.

Steve,

Did you find these people to be more annoying and things they said were irritating you to a far greater degree OR were you feeling aggressive before they even said/did anything? Thank you.

How do you feel about liposomal NAD+? Thank you.

 

[EpiStrong]

The person that I replied to is in the US and I absolutely positively am not going to suggest to anyone to try to import something through US Customs during the most Customs inspecting heavy time of the year that the FDA has issued numerous advisories against.

And my quality points still stand - this is widely regarded as one of the most problematic raw materials in the supplement industry in terms of not testing out properly and meeting label claims.

It is/was literally so heavily counterfeited that you could buy bulk capsules and labels off Alibaba and people were bottling it themselves and calling themselves a supplement brands - with no quality testing nor heavy metals or microbial testing.

I get that you want to push your brand, but you're not a sponsor here. If you really want to push NMN here, become a sponsor and send out a sealed bottle of your NMN to Eurofins for independent testing and post the results.

Just curious do you post testing of your products as well? I know some testing is unavailable for certain things but I didn't see it on your website. It's just a nice reassurance when batches are tested personally. I assume the many patents you use are up to standards as you use the name as well... using a couple myself.

 

[sns8778]

Steve,

Did you find these people to be more annoying and things they said were irritating you to a far greater degree OR were you feeling aggressive before they even said/did anything? Thank you.

How do you feel about liposomal NAD+? Thank you.

High dosed NMN made me extremely irritable. Mood in general overall. I've heard that from several other people that I know very well too.

I haven't tried Liposomal NAD+. I think that hardest challenge right now on the liposomal side is finding one that is legitimately encased in the liposome (a real liposomal) versus products that use the term liposomal delivery as a marketing tool and use liposome components in them, but in that case, they aren't really liposomal. That's a huge issue across liposomal supplements in general. It's been so bad with supposed Liposomal Glutathione that some of the largest glutathione suppliers have issues statements about it.

 

[sns8778]

Just curious do you post testing of your products as well? I know some testing is unavailable for certain things but I didn't see it on your website. It's just a nice reassurance when batches are tested personally. I assume the many patents you use are up to standards as you use the name as well... using a couple myself.

Thanks for asking. I don't think a lot of people realize to what great lengths that our quality procedures go to, and that's something I'm very proud of and one of the reasons that I try to help people and educate people on ingredient quality.

We have over 100 sku's across the brands and spend close to six figures a year in quality testing. All testing is done by third party independent labs and we do quality testing along with heavy metals and microbial testing.

We are FDA registered and fully cGMP and only use FDA registered and fully cGMP contract manufacturers.

On the contract manufacturing side, that means that the contract manufacturers that we use must meet certain legal requirements for testing on both raw materials and finished products per FDA guidelines.

Then on our end, we meet or exceed FDA testing requirements and independent test results are reviewed by the FDA when we receive inspections. These test results include quality testing along with safety testing such as heavy metals and microbial testing.

 

[EpiStrong]

Thanks for asking. I don't think a lot of people realize to what great lengths that our quality procedures go to, and that's something I'm very proud of and one of the reasons that I try to help people and educate people on ingredient quality.

We have over 100 sku's across the brands and spend close to six figures a year in quality testing. All testing is done by third party independent labs and we do quality testing along with heavy metals and microbial testing.

We are FDA registered and fully cGMP and only use FDA registered and fully cGMP contract manufacturers.

On the contract manufacturing side, that means that the contract manufacturers that we use must meet certain legal requirements for testing on both raw materials and finished products per FDA guidelines.

Then on our end, we meet or exceed FDA testing requirements and independent test results are reviewed by the FDA when we receive inspections. These test results include quality testing along with safety testing such as heavy metals and microbial testing.

Is any of this available to the consumer?

 

[sns8778]

Is any of this available to the consumer?

We stopped posting test results publicly quite a few years back when a lot of other brands like PrimaForce did, when there was the huge issue with brands stealing other brands lab reports and editing them and trying to pass them off as their own.

It wasn't a brand choice back then - as a lot of the testing facilities requested, and some required, that brands no longer post the results publicly because companies were stealing them and photoshopping them, and it was causing a lot of issues for the testing facilities because you'd have brands claiming to have had their products tested by those labs and the labs had never done testing for them, or had done testing for them and the results didn't meet label claims so the brands were stealing someone else's.

There were tons of lawsuits and some FDA actions taken over all of that back then; so most brands lawyers, including ours, told us to no longer do it.

It's similar to how this year, there are dozens of brands on Amazon that claim to show independent test results - and NOW Foods went behind them and tested hundreds of products this year and listed the results publicly and it showed that many didn't meet label claims and in some cases didn't even have any of the ingredients in there at all. Those brands weren't really testing each batch of their products - they were testing one batch and then falsifying batch numbers, completely falsifying the documents to begin with, or stealing and editing other brands results.


The perception of us as a brand is that there are some people that think we're larger than we are, but then most think that we're smaller than we are, probably because I still spend so much time on here interacting and trying to help people. I truly like helping people and I'm a creature of habit and I've been here so long.

But as a brand, we aren't a home based or small office based operation.

We operate out of a 20k sq. foot FDA registered warehousing and distribution facility and handle our brands as well as warehousing and distribution for over a dozen other brands. As part of this, we are an FDA registered facility, have hundreds of SOP's (standard operating procedures) and attorneys dictate pretty much every step of that. As part of that, the record keeping is very extensive - from being able to trace every bottle that comes in and out, to having every ingredient COA and finished product test result available for the FDA when they do their inspections.

You mentioned in an early post of yours about us using a lot of branded ingredients - and that goes into the above point - a lot of branded ingredient companies will only work with brands that have certain processes and procedures in place. Some don't have any or many restrictions, but then some have a lot - and we're very proud to work with a large number of branded ingredient companies, including some of the strictest in the industry.

On my end, I was doing formulation and raw material sourcing in this industry for other brands before SNS or CEL ever existed, and I still do formulation for over a dozen brands and do raw material sourcing for brands and contract manufacturers. I also work in consulting with quite a few suppliers and branded ingredient companies on helping with new ingredients, determining market viability for new ingredients, etc. And a lot of that is how I see first hand a lot of the behind the scenes quality issues that go one in the industry and I like to help people, so I try to educate people on things to look for or if there are ingredients that have a lot of issues with them not being what they're supposed to be.

For example, the NMN issue became very well known and very widespread to the point where anyone could even go on Alibaba and order capsules and labels and make them in their garage with zero quality oversight or any idea what was even in the capsules. But I was warning people of the issues going on with it long before it ever got as wide spread and well known.

Anyway, back to your point - in today's times, as we've grown, we have over 100 sku's and on any given week may have shipments arriving of 10 or more sku's back into stock. The program in place to oversee the testing, quarantine, and release of finished products for sale is pretty intensive.

I've posted quite a bit on how our focus this year has been on increasing inventory levels to avoid out of stocks. As part of this, there may be at any given time 2 or 3 batches of a product here as we are trying to scale up inventory. It would be hard to do what you're talking about about posting the results for each batch, because at one point do we remove previous ones? The website allows for 6 product pictures per product - so if we go through 7 batches in a year for example, if we use all those spots for test results, then there's no room for product images or information.

So even if the labs would allow the results to be posted again for everything, and even if our lawyer were to okay it, it would likely require hiring someone just to keep up with the posting and taking down of those results just to keep up with it, and it would still create numerous issues on the websites like I explained above.

 

[EpiStrong]

We stopped posting test results publicly quite a few years back when a lot of other brands like PrimaForce did, when there was the huge issue with brands stealing other brands lab reports and editing them and trying to pass them off as their own.

It wasn't a brand choice back then - as a lot of the testing facilities requested, and some required, that brands no longer post the results publicly because companies were stealing them and photoshopping them, and it was causing a lot of issues for the testing facilities because you'd have brands claiming to have had their products tested by those labs and the labs had never done testing for them, or had done testing for them and the results didn't meet label claims so the brands were stealing someone else's.

There were tons of lawsuits and some FDA actions taken over all of that back then; so most brands lawyers, including ours, told us to no longer do it.

It's similar to how this year, there are dozens of brands on Amazon that claim to show independent test results - and NOW Foods went behind them and tested hundreds of products this year and listed the results publicly and it showed that many didn't meet label claims and in some cases didn't even have any of the ingredients in there at all. Those brands weren't really testing each batch of their products - they were testing one batch and then falsifying batch numbers, completely falsifying the documents to begin with, or stealing and editing other brands results.


The perception of us as a brand is that there are some people that think we're larger than we are, but then most think that we're smaller than we are, probably because I still spend so much time on here interacting and trying to help people. I truly like people and I'm a creature of habit and I've been here so long.

But as a brand, we aren't a home based or small office based operation.

We operate out of a 20k sq. foot FDA registered warehousing and distribution facility and handle our brands as well as warehousing and distribution for over a dozen other brands. As part of this, we are an FDA registered facility, have hundreds of SOP's (standard operating procedures) and attorneys dictate pretty much every step of that. As part of that, the record keeping is very extensive - from being able to trace every bottle that comes in and out, to having every ingredient COA and finished product test result available for the FDA when they do their inspections.

You mentioned in an early post of yours about us using a lot of branded ingredients - and that goes into the above point - a lot of branded ingredient companies will only work with brands that have certain processes and procedures in place. Some don't have any or many restrictions, but then some have a lot - and we're very proud to work with a large number of branded ingredient companies, including some of the strictest in the industry.

On my end, I was doing formulation and raw material sourcing in this industry for other brands before SNS or CEL ever existed, and I still do formulation for over a dozen brands and do raw material sourcing for brands and contract manufacturers. I also work in consulting with quite a few suppliers and branded ingredient companies on helping with new ingredients, determining market viability for new ingredients, etc. And a lot of that is how I see first hand a lot of the behind the scenes quality issues that go one in the industry and I like to help people, so I try to educate people on things to look for or if there are ingredients that have a lot of issues with them not being what they're supposed to be.

For example, the NMN issue became very well known and very widespread to the point where anyone could even go on Alibaba and order capsules and labels and make them in their garage with zero quality oversight or any idea what was even in the capsules. But I was warning people of the issues going on with it long before it ever got as wide spread and well known.

Anyway, back to your point - in today's times, as we've grown, we have over 100 sku's and on any given week may have shipments arriving of 10 or more sku's back into stock. The program in place to oversee the testing, quarantine, and release of finished products for sale is pretty intensive.

I've posted quite a bit on how our focus this year has been on increasing inventory levels to avoid out of stocks. As part of this, there may be at any given time 2 or 3 batches of a product here as we are trying to scale up inventory. It would be hard to do what you're talking about about posting the results for each batch, because at one point do we remove previous ones? The website allows for 6 product pictures per product - so if we go through 7 batches in a year for example, if we use all those spots for test results, then there's no room for product images or information.

So even if the labs would allow the results to be posted again for everything, and even if our lawyer were to okay it, it would likely require hiring someone just to keep up with the posting and taking down of those results just to keep up with it, and it would still create numerous issues on the websites like I explained above.

Great info. I was asking because I recommended some of your products locally. The NOW testing results of low quality products have scared a few and now they're looking for other brands. If it is feasible I think there is some benefit to it similar to how mryouaresodumb pushes them out but it is different type of products mainly.

Appreciate your time.

 

[sns8778]

Great info. I was asking because I recommended some of your products locally. The NOW testing results of low quality products have scared a few and now they're looking for other brands. If it is feasible I think there is some benefit to it similar to how mryouaresodumb pushes them out but it is different type of products mainly.

Appreciate your time.

The difference there is that they do testing in their own in house testing facility that they own. I'm not saying anything negative about them by saying that, they acknowledge that themselves. So in their case, being able to release them how they choose to is entirely their decision because they own the lab.

That's completely different from our case where use third party independent labs to do the heavy metals, microbial, and quality testing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll try to walk you through a little more of this process, and then I have to get back to work for the day.

This is where things can get very complicated to people that aren't familiar with all of this stuff, and it can be very confusing to try to understand and follow.

For example, we only use FDA registered cGMP contract manufacturers.

• Some of the contract manufacturers that we use have in house testing facilities - and that's great, they have their own processes and procedures there they have to send out x amount for independent testing to validate their own results.
• Other contract manufacturers we use prefer to send out everything on their end to third party independent testing facilities themselves.

This next step is where a lot of brands make mistakes, and some have gotten in real trouble for this.

A lot of brands rely on the contract manufacturers test results and hope for the best - but as a brand, a brand is supposed to do their own testing and validation to confirm the test results and not rely on the contract manufacturers results or on COA's provided by the raw material suppliers.

Which leads to what I was saying about us using independent third party labs for heavy metals, microbial, and quality testing.

I hope all of this helps give an insight and understanding to anyone reading and following along.

 

[EpiStrong]

During a time of common scamming and in a market with little oversight until its too late, it's hard to be comfortable with even clearmarket sources. Your transparency is not common and I personally take that deserving some merit.

Now get back to work