Extremely low (mentally); loss of performance; "Shut down" or a horror story?

[Dalmore]

Extremely low (mentally); loss of performance; "Shut down" or a horror story?

Since about december 2015 (~3,5 months) I've been feeling extremely low and it is figuratively killing me.
I suspect I might be dealing with something regarding:
- 1. Testes
- 2. Thyroid
- 3. Adrenal

Why?
- 1. I did fool around with Ostarine about 12mg ED for 9 weeks without PCT, ending in the beginning of November 2015.
I had previous experience with ostarine from before without any sides even though I didn't take PCT, so I assumed I didn't need one this time either. I know better now. (Still haven't taken any SERM, due to being unsure what really is the cause of my "depression". + no complete blood works)

- 2. I went to a Primary Care Clinic and they tested my thyroid (only S-TSH). According to them, my TSH-value was good (1.6mE/L @9AM). I wasn't pleased with them since they said they couldn't do anything from me since "everything was fine and they didnt find anything". I went to an Endocrinologist stating the exact same thing (extremely low mentally, loss of performance, etc).
He tested (@2:30PM) : Results : (Reference Range)

S-Cortisol : 296nmol/L (Before 10AM: 100-535) (After 5PM: 80-480)
S-Cholesterol : 3.1 mmol/L (2.9-6.1)
S-25-OH Vitamin D : 49 nmol/L (75-250 optimal level)
S-Cobalamin, B12 : 630 pmol/L (150-800)
S-Folate, B9 : 16 nmol/L (7.0-40)
S-Free T4 : 11 pmol/L (9-22)
S-free T3 : 5.2 pmol/L (2.5-5.6)
S-TSH : 2.25 mE/L (0.20-4.00)
S-Testosterone : 15 nmol/L = 4.33ng/ml = 433ng/dl
S-ASAT : 0.54 μkat/L (<0.76)
S-ALAT : 0.58 μkat/L (<1.20)
S-gamma-GT : 0.25 μkat/L (<1.40)

According to my Endocrinologist, my TSH range is too high even though the "reference range" we have in Sweden says otherwise. So he gave me "Levothyroxin" which I have been taking for about a week now @50mcg ED. Note that there might be more tests he should have(?) done, for example: LH(Lutropin), and so on. I am very unsure about what tests to even consider, hence my thread [What "Blood Work" to take?] which I didn't get any responds too. :laugh:

- 3. Even though some don't acknowledge "Adrenal Fatigue" as a medical condition, the "symptoms" are very similar to what I am experiencing.
Note: I am a novice on this topic, but it seemed plausible.


Side note - Me and the symptoms:
For 5 years, the gym has been my life. I don't really do anything else. I study to become a Physiotherapist and I am daily active on strength training forums (swedish ones). I don't drink alcohol (haven't for 2,5 years), don't smoke, don't do drugs (except caffeine). Listening to strength training PodCasts regularly such as Mark Bells. I've been writing down what time I wake up and go to sleep for about 2 years now + regularly my bodyweight as well. I am not really the strong type, though I am very fast when it comes to running. 25km/h (15.5 mph) @ 14 degrees incline is manageable for a brief moment. No doubt I can run above 27km/h (16.77 mph) on a flat surface. Lately my 1RM bench and squat have dropped more than 25%, and other lifts are comparable in loss of performance. Nowadays I CBA to go to the gym. My girlfriend drags me along, but I just "sit out" 50% of the time while there and CBA to go above 7 RPE most of the time when actually lifting.


What would you do? What tests would you do ASAP? This is hell....

Best regards

 

[TheConMan]

Sounds like low test / hypogonadism symptoms. However I don't see any results for Free T, LH, FSH, Estradiol. I'd suggest you check on those asap

 

[Dalmore]

Alright, thanks a lot! :veryhappy: Will definitely get my Endo to get me those tests. What about DHEA, Progesteron, Estrogen? onder:

 

[Dalmore]

I recently ordered and payed for the blood works myself since my endo didn't think it was necessary to do. 544 USD total... :headache:

I seem to be OK according to the BW results I got so far:

Tests : Results : (Reference Value)
S-FSH : 6,2 E/L (1,5-8,6)
S-LH : 5,9 nmol/L (1,7-8,6)
S-Testosterone : 21 nmol/L = 6,06 ng/ml = 606 ng/dl
S-DHEA : 8,9 µmol/L (5,7-13)
S-Progesterone : 2,9 nmol/L (0,7-4,3)
S-Estradiol : <80 pmol/L (na)
S-Free T3 : 5,0 pmol/L (3,1-6,8)
S-Free T4 : 15 pmol/L (12-22)
S-TSH : 2,2 mE/L (0,3-4,2)
P-PSA : 0,98 µg/L (<2)
P-PSA (Free) : 0,39 µg/L ( na)
P-PSA (Free/Tot) : 0,39 (>0,18)
P-Iron : 18 µmol/L (9-34)
S-Ferritin : 106 µg/L (30-350)
P-Magnesium : 0,84 mmol/L (0,70-0,95)
P-Calcium : 2,45 mmol/L (2,15-2,50)
P-Kalium : 3,8 mmol/L (3,5-4,6)
P-Kreatinin : 90 µmol/L (<100)
P-Sodium : 140 mmol/L (137-145)
P-Homocystein : 6,4 µmol/L (5,0-15)
S-Cobalamin : 510 pmol/L (150-650)
P-ALAT : 0,45 µkat/L (<1,1)
P-ASAT : 0,46 µkat/L (<0,76)
B-Erythrocytes : 4,8 (4,2-5,7)
B-EVF : 0,46 (0,39-0,50)
B-Hemoglobin : 151 g/L (135-170)
Erc(B)-MCH : 32 pg (27-33)
Erc(B)-MCH : 96 fL (82-98)
B-Leukocytes : 4,1 (3,5-8,8)
B-SR : 1 mm (<10)

I also got a full blood fat-profile, but did not include that one because I dont think that has anything to do with being mentally low. The results were normal as well though.

I really wonder why I've been feeling so low the last couple of months when my blood levels are "normal".

 

[netflixNchill]

Recent break up? Death of someone close? Not satisfied at work? Not everything has to be related to your hormones, you could just be having the winter blues. When the warm weather comes around and the sun is shining I bet you'll get out of your funk.
I know being stuck indoors most winters has me depressed 50% of the time

 

[All Creation]

Just some thoughts:

Are you taking days off from training? Giving yourself enough recovery time? Sometimes you can be pushing your body too hard and just need some time off to reset. Sometimes just a week off can work wonders.

If you have a history of depression or anxiety in your family maybe that is manifesting? I never believed in taking a pill for mental stuff until it was my last resort and I felt I needed to try it. Now I just take a very small dose of a SSRI every day and it has absolutely made a huge difference in keeping me level and functioning normally.

You may also want to consider meditation, or some other form of relaxation/breathing deep/emotionally centering activity. It doesn't necessarily have to be spiritual or religious, but sometimes just breathing deeply and taking time to be alone in a quiet place can really help with clearing your mind.

 

[uprightrows]

If you can I would also test for free testosterone and SHBG, it is possible you have low serum free T due to elevated SHBG which would also explain why your E2 is a little low. And I know it is somewhat retrospective but 9 weeks on ostarine at close to 15mg is no joke and likely to have an impact on your test levels and if you plan to do that in the future you probably want a more comprehensive pct. 15mg ED for 6 weeks significantly lowers my test (bloods to verify), and the first time I used osta I had a similar experience and just felt kind of depressed and unmotivated when I finished my cycle. This was back in the day before I was well versed in steroid/sarm protocols so I didn't really think to get bloods done, but in hindsight it was definitely low free T, which luckily sorted itself out.

As others have pointed out, there might be psychological causes as well but I would for sure try to get free T and SHBG tested before you go down the antidepressant/SSRI route.

 

[Dalmore]

I know being stuck indoors most winters has me depressed 50% of the time

Are you taking days off from training? Giving yourself enough recovery time?

If you can I would also test for free testosterone and SHBG, it is possible you have low serum free T due to elevated SHBG which would also explain why your E2 is a little low.

These are all great questions and suggestions! I've literally dropped my weekly workout volume by over 60% and been doing this for the last couple of months. Often I don't even go to the gym...

I'm certain it's no form of overtraining! I recently got more test results online, showing low Vitamin D and high SHBG and Zink levels.

Vitamin D: 44 (75-250) nmol/L
SHBG: 56 (18-54) nmol/L
Zink: 19 (10-17) µmol/L

So definitely the winter blues (low D) + high SHBG.

How would I combat the high SHBG? (writing this before I Google) I've been thinking of doing a first cycle with test, hCG and arimidex on hand (or perhaps during the whole cycle in small quantities starting early on) and finishing of with nolvadex + "Sup3r pct" as PCT. Could some of this help, or would that be shooting myself in the foot?

I greatly appreciate you taking your time and helping me out. All of you. Thanks!

 

[Dalmore]

How would I combat the high SHBG? (writing this before I Google)

I asked my friend Google and saw several threads on the subject recommending similar things but some "odd" suggestions as well.

From Anabolic Minds:

"How to lower SHBG only?"
- Stinging Nettle root
- Avena Sativa
- Divanil
- Testofen
- Long Jack
- Proviron
- Oral Turinabol
- Winstrol

"Lowering SHBG"
- Stinging Nettle root
- Muira Puama
- Avena Sativa
- Chrysin
- Fish Oils

"Ways to lower SHBG??"
- Any strong androgen
- Lowering estrogen
- Stinging Nettle root
- Proviron
- Turinabol
- Avena Sativa (Avenacosides A & B)
- Oats (not sure if srsly)

From Bodybuilding dot com

"Lowering SHBG"
- Avena Sativa
- Muira Puama
- Stinging Nettle (a guy here mentions that it's a COX-inhibitor just like NSAIDS. True?)

"SHBG Reducers"
- Avena Sativa

From Excelmale dot com

"SHBG: Who has successfully lowered their levels?"
- AI
- Danazol
- Milk Thistle
- Vitamin D
- Anavar
- Winny
- Testosterone inj.
- Boron

From eroids dot com:

"Natural routes to Lowering SHBG"
- Fish Oil
- Magnesium, Zink
- Vitamin D
- Boron
- Tongkat Ali
- Avena Sativa
- Stinging Nettle root
- Lowering fiber intake
- Increasing carb intake

Some said Vitamin D was crucial (which suits me great since i need extra Vitamin D anyway). So definitely increasing my supplemental intake there.

Avena Sativa seem to be an obvious choice and so does Stinging Nettle Root. Getting those without a doubt. Any info about Stinging Nettle being a Cox-inhib.? I've also got androsta-3,5-diene-7,17-dione which is supposedly a mild AI (+ Reduces cortisol to some extent).

Add those together, plus some Fish Oil. What do you think?

 

[uprightrows]

It certainly won't hurt, I don't know much about nettle being a cox inhibitor or anti-inflammatory so I can't help you there. In my experience androsta is a nice cortisol control, which might help you feel better, but it doesn't do much for estrogen (which is fine, your estrogen is not high as indicated by your blood work) I would stick with the natural supplement route until you feel better, I would probably wait and get this sorted out before starting a test cycle. Overall your blood work looks pretty good, so when you are feeling 100% and have done your research you should be ready for a test cycle if that's what you choose. If you do, I would recommend low dose hcg throughout the cycle, but it seems like you already knew that.

 

[Dalmore]

Update: Still feel low, might a little bit better tho. Emphasizing "might".

Been taking Avena Sativa, Muira Puama, Resveratrol, LJ100, "Plant Sterols (b-sitosterol, campesterol, stigmasterol, brassicasterol, sitosterol)", SUP3R PCT, vitamin D.

Wondering about Gyno though. I've posted a picture and looking for responses in another thread called "Gyno or fat + under developed chest? " which I borrowed instead of creating another thread.

 

[Dalmore]

---- TL;DR below! ----

The explanation of my condition (title) - was probably due to:
- High levels of SHBG (above reference value)
- High levels of Prolactin (above reference value)
- Low levels of D-vitamin (below reference value)

Treatment:
- Avena Sativa, Longjack Ali, Stinging Nettle (to lower SHBG)
- Bromocriptine/Dopamin-Agonist (to lower prolactin)
- D-vitamin (to increase D-vitamin)

UPDATE GOOD:
S-25-OH Vitamin D: 99 (previously 44) [75-250]
Prolactin: No more lactating!
S-SHBG: (previously 56) [18-54]

UPDATE WORSE:
S-Progesterone: 1,1 [ref: <0,47]
S-DHEAS: 13 (previously 8,9) [ref: 5,7-13]

UPDATE NORMAL
S-FSH: 6,8 (previously 6,2) [ref: 1,5-12]
S-LH: 6,2 (previously 5,9) [ref: 1,7-8,6]
S-Testosterone: 29 (previously 21) [ref: 8,6-29]
S-Estradiol: 86 (previously <80) [ref: not available]

STATUS:
I don't feel better and I am certain it is because of my high amount of "progesterone" which by the looks of it can affect libido, sexual behaviour, memory and so on.

SOLUTION:
I'm starting to get desperate here... I've never done aas except Ostarine - but now I am considering Winstrol (oral, low dose) ONLY to reduce progesterone.

I've done my home work (most of it) and normally if doing a cycle of AAS, I've understood that HCG and AI on cycle and nolva/clomid as PCT is a good setup. HOWEVER; Low dose of Winstrol does not apply to this I can imagine.


TL;DR
Do you have any solution that might help me lowering my high progesterone levels? I truly am looking for ANY WAY possible to finally be happy again. even AAS.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
The many faces of progesterone: A role in adult and developing male brain. Christine K. Wagner. Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, september 2006
- "The conclusion drawn in each of these studies was that P was capable of exerting "anti-androgenic" effects on male-typical behaviours, in the absence of a sedative effect"
- "Subsequent studies have replicated the findings that progesterone decrease the uptake of androgens by target tissue"
- "The synthetic progestin, medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA; Depo-Provera) has been used in humans to reduce sexual motivation in convicted sex offenders. ...It appears to exert desired behavioural effects by first reducing deviant sexual urges, and ultimately sexual activites"
- "Overall, the results of Schneider et al. [124] suggest that the role of PR in male sexual behaviour is an inhibitory one..."

Progesterone Signaling Mechanisms in Brain and Behaviour. Frontiers in Endocrinology. Shaila K. Mani and Mario G. Oyola
- "...progesterone (P) regulate cellular functions in the central nervous system resulting in alterations in reproductive physiology and behaviours in various species"
- "In addition to reproduction, P plays a role on other biological functions including aggression, maternal behaviour, learning and memory, mood and sexual differentiation.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

---- TL;DR below! ----

The explanation of my condition (title) - was probably due to:
- High levels of SHBG (above reference value)
- High levels of Prolactin (above reference value)
- Low levels of D-vitamin (below reference value)

Treatment:
- Avena Sativa, Longjack Ali, Stinging Nettle (to lower SHBG)
- Bromocriptine/Dopamin-Agonist (to lower prolactin)
- D-vitamin (to increase D-vitamin)

UPDATE GOOD:
S-25-OH Vitamin D: 99 (previously 44) [75-250]
Prolactin: No more lactating!
S-SHBG: (previously 56) [18-54]

UPDATE WORSE:
S-Progesterone: 1,1 [ref: <0,47]
S-DHEAS: 13 (previously 8,9) [ref: 5,7-13]

UPDATE NORMAL
S-FSH: 6,8 (previously 6,2) [ref: 1,5-12]
S-LH: 6,2 (previously 5,9) [ref: 1,7-8,6]
S-Testosterone: 29 (previously 21) [ref: 8,6-29]
S-Estradiol: 86 (previously <80) [ref: not available]

STATUS:
I don't feel better and I am certain it is because of my high amount of "progesterone" which by the looks of it can affect libido, sexual behaviour, memory and so on.

SOLUTION:
I'm starting to get desperate here... I've never done aas except Ostarine - but now I am considering Winstrol (oral, low dose) ONLY to reduce progesterone.

I've done my home work (most of it) and normally if doing a cycle of AAS, I've understood that HCG and AI on cycle and nolva/clomid as PCT is a good setup. HOWEVER; Low dose of Winstrol does not apply to this I can imagine.


TL;DR
Do you have any solution that might help me lowering my high progesterone levels? I truly am looking for ANY WAY possible to finally be happy again. even AAS.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sources:
The many faces of progesterone: A role in adult and developing male brain. Christine K. Wagner. Frontiers in Neuroendocrinology, september 2006
- "The conclusion drawn in each of these studies was that P was capable of exerting "anti-androgenic" effects on male-typical behaviours, in the absence of a sedative effect"
- "Subsequent studies have replicated the findings that progesterone decrease the uptake of androgens by target tissue"
- "The synthetic progestin, medroxyprogesterone acetate (MPA; Depo-Provera) has been used in humans to reduce sexual motivation in convicted sex offenders. ...It appears to exert desired behavioural effects by first reducing deviant sexual urges, and ultimately sexual activites"
- "Overall, the results of Schneider et al. [124] suggest that the role of PR in male sexual behaviour is an inhibitory one..."

Progesterone Signaling Mechanisms in Brain and Behaviour. Frontiers in Endocrinology. Shaila K. Mani and Mario G. Oyola
- "...progesterone (P) regulate cellular functions in the central nervous system resulting in alterations in reproductive physiology and behaviours in various species"
- "In addition to reproduction, P plays a role on other biological functions including aggression, maternal behaviour, learning and memory, mood and sexual differentiation.

Your estrogen is 86? is that PG/ML?? If so thats about 56 points over the recommended. These all sound like sides of estrogen, and also controlling estrogen controls both progestone and prolactin.. i feel extrogen can DEFINITELY be a problem for you at the moment. Also i'd look at your diet... Do you get enough polyphenols? Do you get enough Phytonutrients? How's your skin? Polyphenols and Phytonutrients can literally change your life. eat 4 cups of berries a day make berries and fruits the main source of carbs. Again we're focusing on quality MICROnutrients too not just macronutrients. Your t levels are honestly astounding you're literally at the top of the reference range which in turn can cause elevated estrogen and elevated estrogen can lead to prolactin issues (lactating nips as you had) and progesterone issues. I'd say control estrogen grab some IC3, D1m, and actually I feel inhibit E would really help you. Grab some L-Dopa and pair it with a COMT inhibitor and a Decarboxylase inhibitor so that it can effectively cross the BBB. These things will help hormonal profiles, help sex drive/motivation and all and all through trial and error can get you to the route cause of this decline.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Also stop Sup3r PCT immediately IMO, DAA is terrible it raises prolactin and has show to actually reduce testosterone in healthy men, all of the good studies on DAA were done in HypoGonadal men, which you my friend with that LH/FSH/T there's not shot in hell you're hypogonadal.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Sup3r PCT is good for exactly that.. PCT. But I do not recommend it as a T booster, it's a great PCT because when you come off cycle youre secondary hypogonadal.

 

[Dalmore]

It is pmol/L, which gives about 23 pg/mL.

Sure it might look astounding that my testosterone is high, but to me it makes sense since DHEA and Progesteone are precursors and those levels are either the upper limit value or 2x the upper limit value.

I've got plenty of wood (progesterone/dhea) to fuel the testo-furnace.

I have L-dopa (Bromocriptine) but it's so specific to Prolactin, and that is no longer an issue of mine!

Thank you A LOT for your input. I feel like no one takes time to listen or care.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

It is pmol/L, which gives about 23 pg/mL.

Sure it might look astounding that my testosterone is high, but to me it makes sense since DHEA and Progesteone are precursors and those levels are either the upper limit value or 2x the upper limit value.

I've got plenty of wood (progesterone/dhea) to fuel the testo-furnace.

I have L-dopa (Bromocriptine) but it's so specific to Prolactin, and that is no longer an issue of mine!

Thank you A LOT for your input. I feel like no one takes time to listen or care.

I'd honestly say look at diet, if you're eating a lot of processed foods your serotonin could be way out of whack. 90% of the bodies serotonin is in the gut your diet will heavily impact mood, i'd suggest getting pro-biotics, pre-biotic fiber, and switching to eating a lot more berries or buying polyphenol extracts, read Dr. Gundry's Diet Revolution to really understand the importance of Polyphenols and Phytonutrients. Mapping your diet around that books foundations can seriously change your life and health. Also watch his videos on youtube regarding the subject.

 

[YoungBodyBuil]

Also do some brain training, seriously. Your brain is a muscle challenging it on a daily basis will build it's foundation I always notice a decline in cognition when im not challenging myself mentally. Mental exercises/apps are awesome for keeping savvy. Reading is always huge now granted this may seem like oddball advice but if brain power is what you're looking for building a foundation and consistently improving upon it is the way to go.

Also, Dopamine desensitization- mainly occurs when d1 receptors become less dense than d2 and d3 receptors and is brought about my chronic stimulation leading to a downregulation of that stimulations effect. Phenylpiracetam cycled 2 weeks on 2 weeks of and aniracetam will help rebuild D1 receptor density and will also help cognition/ positive outlook.

 

[kelso312]

yes vitamin d is crucial. It plays more of the role of a hormone in you body due to the many different things does. (Quote form my Dr when I was tested and was found to be an 8...)

You can mega dose D3 for a week then drop back to a maintenance dose of 5000IUs daily. Take it during a fatty meal as D3 is fat soluble. That i one piece of the puzzle. It is a quick and cheap fix compared to drs visits and meds..