Ex Bodybuilder best way to come off Test for fertility and competitive kickboxing

[AwakeningAlpha]

Hi Gents,

My 35yo friend and training partner who has been on low dose test (90-300) base and anabolics for a few years while competing in mens physique wants to come off test to protect his fertility, and begin competing in kickboxing matches. I have never been on test so I am out of my depth, but I thought I could ask you guys what you think the best way to do this would be.

The kickboxing is still amateur and not tested so he's not looking to cheat just wants to be off PEDs to be more fair. The main goal is fertility and not running into side effects of E or low T by just going cold turkey or without PCT. We both know it is a long shot that his natural levels come back but he wants to try. He has clomid, enclo, and HCG on hand as well as AIs. His worry with those is boosting his E while test is crashed and getting gyno or other sides. He'd like to avoid using the AI's unless he starts feeling itchy or sore nips. Anything else he should consider having on hand or running?

Any input or experience appreciated. Thanks guys!

 

[Smont]

DM me, I got 2 protocols that should be very productive given he's able to recover, which he absolutely should be able to, it is not a long shot that is natural levels will come back unless he already had issues before he went on. There is a huge misconception in the anabolics world that once you go on steroids you become infertile and can't regain your natural production and it just isn't true. It absolutely does happen to people but not nearly as much as you would think it's only the people who have issues who are going to come and make posts about it the 10 million people who come off just fine don't have to complain about anything. I know guys in their 50s and 60s who have come off after being on for 20 or 30 years. And just to cover my own ass cuz I know someone's going to argue with me I'm not saying it's easy I'm not saying it's a guarantee and I'm not saying he's not going to have issues. I'm just saying it's not as complicated as people make it out to be. The majority of people will recover within 3 months to a year. And he's 35, not 60, so that means his chances are a little better

 

[Smont]

Also only one of the things he listed raises estrogen, and that thing is HCG which is actually the most important part of PCT so he's worried about the wrong things

 

[Ryan Russo]

Purely my own personal opinion, if it were me I would come off the test and run high dose HCG and HMG for the gonads, say 1000iu 3x a week and 50iu 3x a week for 2-4 weeks, then wait 1-2 weeks and start a SERM PCT for the HPTA axis. 4 weeks of Enclomiphene and Nolva at 12.5-25mg and 20-40mg. Then another month of low dose Enclo solo 6.5-12.5mg per day. Low dose AI on hand to control estrogen if needed, but definitely don't crash estrogen. Near the end of the last month of Enclo I would look at some injectable Glutathione, its supposed to be very good for sperm morphology and motility. Then get bloodwork and if needed a sperm analysis.

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

@Smont @Ryan Russo
Thank you guys so much! good info.

 

[Smont]

Purely my own personal opinion, if it were me I would come off the test and run high dose HCG and HMG for the gonads, say 1000iu 3x a week and 50iu 3x a week for 2-4 weeks, then wait 1-2 weeks and start a SERM PCT for the HPTA axis. 4 weeks of Enclomiphene and Nolva at 12.5-25mg and 20-40mg. Then another month of low dose Enclo solo 6.5-12.5mg per day. Low dose AI on hand to control estrogen if needed, but definitely don't crash estrogen. Near the end of the last month of Enclo I would look at some injectable Glutathione, its supposed to be very good for sperm morphology and motility. Then get bloodwork and if needed a sperm analysis.

This is similar to what I would do. Some of the things I would do are a little different but one important thing to note is when it comes to fertility, you kind of have to stay on some fertility drugs until you get the job done. And getting testing for your sperm quality is absolutely very important because the sooner those things look good the sooner you can stop taking all the extra crap

 

[BBiceps]

Purely my own personal opinion, if it were me I would come off the test and run high dose HCG and HMG for the gonads, say 1000iu 3x a week and 50iu 3x a week for 2-4 weeks, then wait 1-2 weeks and start a SERM PCT for the HPTA axis. 4 weeks of Enclomiphene and Nolva at 12.5-25mg and 20-40mg. Then another month of low dose Enclo solo 6.5-12.5mg per day. Low dose AI on hand to control estrogen if needed, but definitely don't crash estrogen. Near the end of the last month of Enclo I would look at some injectable Glutathione, its supposed to be very good for sperm morphology and motility. Then get bloodwork and if needed a sperm analysis.

Yeah don’t do this. You kinda have an idea what to do but this is way too much.

I have reset myself from no sperm to making babies, coming OFF TRT.

 

[Hyde]

Get your buddy using injectable L-Carnitine too. One of the best supps he could add for combat training, legal, improves health, and especially in his case good for fertility.

Yeah don’t do this. You kinda have an idea what to do but this is way too much.

I have reset myself from no sperm to making babies, coming OFF TRT.

Why do you think it’s too much? Pretty much how a restart attempt goes. Wake up the boys, then try to turn the HPTA back on, & ideally don’t get gyno. Those SERMs will only increase FSH & LH. They are not TRT.

 

[BBiceps]

Why do you think it’s too much? Pretty much how a restart attempt goes. Wake up the boys, then try to turn the HPTA back on, & ideally don’t get gyno. Those SERMs will only increase FSH & LH. They are not TRT.

Well, for starters I used 3x less HCG (500iu x2 week) when I restarted and why use both Enclo and Nolva when you just can use Clomid? More is not better with these drugs, plus less drugs will give less Estrogen spikes. I had high estrogen on only HCG and Clomid but I never needed to use an AI, with his protocol it’s almost a guarantee for an AI, which will give other negatives.

Use HCG 500iu 2x for 2-4 weeks and Clomid at 50mg ed for the first 2 weeks and then 25mg Clomid for another 6-8 weeks/or until your balls are back. That took me from “too low to measure” sperm to making babies.

Try that or throw the kitchen sink, hope for the best and expect sides.

 

[Hyde]

Well, for starters I used 3x less HCG (500iu x2 week) when I restarted and why use both Enclo and Nolva when you just can use Clomid? More is not better with these drugs, plus less drugs will give less Estrogen spikes. I had high estrogen on only HCG and Clomid but I never needed to use an AI, with his protocol it’s almost a guarantee for an AI, which will give other negatives.

Use HCG 500iu 2x for 2-4 weeks and Clomid at 50mg ed for the first 2 weeks and then 25mg Clomid for another 6-8 weeks/or until your balls are back. That took me from “too low to measure” sperm to making babies.

Try that or throw the kitchen sink, hope for the best and expect sides.

It’s not really kitchen sink. That dose of HCG you took is more therapeutic. For a 2-week primer, 2-3,000iu/wk is fairly normal prescription.

Then you follow it up with Enclomiphene. I would never recommend Clomid in 2026 when you can get Enclo. Less chance for sides; Clomid is trash that makes many feel terrible. I have floaters in my vision to this day from years of using it in PCT at lesser durations than you said even.

Tamoxifen is a good choice for some extra restart pressure if you also need to prevent rebound gyno while things smooth out - it prevents the potential for overuse that AI can bring when you go from the HCG surge to being hypogonadal initially.

 

[BBiceps]

It’s not really kitchen sink. That dose of HCG you took is more therapeutic. For a 2-week primer, 2-3,000iu/wk is fairly normal prescription.

Then you follow it up with Enclomiphene. I would never recommend Clomid in 2026 when you can get Enclo. Less chance for sides; Clomid is trash that makes many feel terrible. I have floaters in my vision to this day from years of using it in PCT at lesser durations than you said even.

Tamoxifen is a good choice for some extra restart pressure if you also need to prevent rebound gyno while things smooth out - it prevents the potential for overuse that AI can bring when you go from the HCG surge to being hypogonadal initially.

Sure, but just remember, it’s only 1 person in this thread that have successfully restarted himself. Do whatever you guys want, I don’t care.

Btw how much Clomid did you use? Most of the time people overdose with the mindset “more is better” when it comes to PCT drugs, it’s not the case, that’s when sides happen.

I would never recommend Enclo

 

[AwakeningAlpha]

Thanks for weighing in. I'll get him to lurk on this thread and send him the messages that were DM'd to me.

The protocol that gets him fertile without gyno wins the ability to name his firstborn!!!

 

[Ryan Russo]

Well, for starters I used 3x less HCG (500iu x2 week) when I restarted and why use both Enclo and Nolva when you just can use Clomid? More is not better with these drugs, plus less drugs will give less Estrogen spikes. I had high estrogen on only HCG and Clomid but I never needed to use an AI, with his protocol it’s almost a guarantee for an AI, which will give other negatives.

Use HCG 500iu 2x for 2-4 weeks and Clomid at 50mg ed for the first 2 weeks and then 25mg Clomid for another 6-8 weeks/or until your balls are back. That took me from “too low to measure” sperm to making babies.

Try that or throw the kitchen sink, hope for the best and expect sides.

Clomid is enclomiphene + zuclomiphene, zuclomiphene is detrimental to males, its only useful for female fertility. Enclo should be used over Clomid. Nolvadex is a SERM that operates slightly differently, so there is some merit in adding it in, but it may be superfluous. Basically in these protocols you want to #1) prime the gonad leydig cells via hcg/hmg #2) THEN stimulate the HPTA axis upstream, either with a SERM at the pituitary to stimulate LH/FSH release or with something like Kisspeptin (if it worked, which it doesn't) that stimulates GnRH at the hypothalamus #3) if necessary support sperm morphology via an antioxident (coq10, glutathione). Ofc this all assumes worse case scenario, ideally the gonads themselves are fine and minimal/no hcg is needed, only moderate SERM use as hcg itself is suppressive on LH/FSH and has estrogen sides, Enclo/Clomid can also have estrogen sides if they raise total T by too much.

 

[Hyde]

Sure, but just remember, it’s only 1 person in this thread that have successfully restarted himself. Do whatever you guys want, I don’t care.

Btw how much Clomid did you use? Most of the time people overdose with the mindset “more is better” when it comes to PCT drugs, it’s not the case, that’s when sides happen.

I would never recommend Enclo

40/20 or 50/25, like I said same or less exposure than what you are recommending (and in line with what an HRT doctor might administer, albeit a much longer timeline). Nothing heavy-handed.

Why would you never recommend Enclo? I explained why I believe Clomid to be harsh, so I’m curious what about Enclo dissuades you from it.

 

[BBiceps]

40/20 or 50/25, like I said same or less exposure than what you are recommending (and in line with what an HRT doctor might administer, albeit a much longer timeline). Nothing heavy-handed.

Why would you never recommend Enclo? I explained why I believe Clomid to be harsh, so I’m curious what about Enclo dissuades you from it.

I never used Enclo, that’s why I can’t recommend that over Clomid, plus I do think Estrogen is important for fertility/recovery. You should get estrogen from the HCG but since I never used Enclo and used Clomid with luck it will always be Clomid over Enclo for me. I know Clomid gets a bad rep but it always been good to me, used to raise my natty levels from 500 to 900/1000 and I always felt great on it.

 

[Hyde]

I never used Enclo, that’s why I can’t recommend that over Clomid, plus I do think Estrogen is important for fertility/recovery. You should get estrogen from the HCG but since I never used Enclo and used Clomid with luck it will always be Clomid over Enclo for me. I know Clomid gets a bad rep but it always been good to me, used to raise my natty levels from 500 to 900/1000 and I always felt great on it.

Okay just wondered if you knew some red flag about it I didn’t, but you’re moreso coming from an n=1 perspective of staying in your lane of personal experience. Which I can appreciate.

Estrogen in sufficient quantity is actually suppressive to the HPTA - it’s a feedback signal that tells your body you already have enough testosterone. When test is high enough, you aromatize sufficiently so if the body sees high estrogen it lowers LH. This is why if an HCG primer blast is needed for the testes, the SERM protocol needs to wait until after, for the estrogen to start clearing enough.

I’m not saying you want no estrogen, but an unbalanced ratio of estrogen to DHT is also a problem (and can easily happen in a PCT).

Anyway, thank you for sharing your reasoning.

 

[BBiceps]

Okay just wondered if you knew some red flag about it I didn’t, but you’re moreso coming from an n=1 perspective of staying in your lane of personal experience. Which I can appreciate.

Estrogen in sufficient quantity is actually suppressive to the HPTA - it’s a feedback signal that tells your body you already have enough testosterone. When test is high enough, you aromatize sufficiently so if the body sees high estrogen it lowers LH. This is why if an HCG primer blast is needed for the testes, the SERM protocol needs to wait until after, for the estrogen to start clearing enough.

I’m not saying you want no estrogen, but an unbalanced ratio of estrogen to DHT is also a problem (and can easily happen in a PCT).

Anyway, thank you for sharing your reasoning.

Around the same time my wife got pregnant I did a blood test that showed very Estrogen, I don’t remember exactly the number but it was a few hundreds, 3-4x over the limit and so high that my Dr offered a AI. So in my case high estrogen was very beneficial since I came from “too low to measure” sperm and a few months of being very frustrated I couldn’t make my wife pregnant.

I let my estrogen stabilize by it self and stayed OFF any anabolics until my second son was born, actually I think until he was 1 or 2. During this time my Test stayed in the 500’s and I boosted it with Clomid to the 900’s here and there. Estrogen stayed high normal.

I’m no expert in this but I’m the only one that has successfully restarted in this thread, without a fancy high doses protocol.

 

[Hyde]

Around the same time my wife got pregnant I did a blood test that showed very Estrogen, I don’t remember exactly the number but it was a few hundreds, 3-4x over the limit and so high that my Dr offered a AI. So in my case high estrogen was very beneficial since I came from “too low to measure” sperm and a few months of being very frustrated I couldn’t make my wife pregnant.

I let my estrogen stabilize by it self and stayed OFF any anabolics until my second son was born, actually I think until he was 1 or 2. During this time my Test stayed in the 500’s and I boosted it with Clomid to the 900’s here and there. Estrogen stayed high normal.

I’m no expert in this but I’m the only one that has successfully restarted in this thread, without a fancy high doses protocol.

Clomid literally is shaped like an estrogen. That’s how it selectively modulates the estrogen receptors in the brain to increase LH. If you’re taking it, actual estrogen is not going to be inhibitory to sufficient degree to override the profound chemical signaling it induces.

I don’t know why you keep saying you’re the only one who has restarted. I ran PCTs for TEN YEARS before I had my son, and my test levels were low 500s when we conceived. So I know exactly what these drugs do at these doses from firsthand experience.

And the only difference in a PCT between a guy who’s been on for 14 weeks vs 4 years, is you really need to address the fact the testes have been atrophied for longer so a bigger dose of HCG should be run prior, and you want to make sure you have enough SERM signaling when it’s time. And don’t get gyno in the process.

It’s great you didn’t use HCG & were fine. I have done plenty without any as well. But saying that because one guy did it one way with one drug is like saying everyone else will only need 500mg test solo to get freaky big. And the doses recommended were not huge at all. They just didn’t have HCG or the Tamoxifen.

I guess I just want to ask you to keep an open mind here. That your experience is valid, but it doesn’t mean the other ways are trash or unnecessary for all. It’s going to depend on what his response is, which we can’t predict ahead of time.

 

[BBiceps]

Clomid literally is shaped like an estrogen. That’s how it selectively modulates the estrogen receptors in the brain to increase LH. If you’re taking it, actual estrogen is not going to be inhibitory to sufficient degree to override the profound chemical signaling it induces.

I don’t know why you keep saying you’re the only one who has restarted. I ran PCTs for TEN YEARS before I had my son, and my test levels were low 500s when we conceived. So I know exactly what these drugs do at these doses from firsthand experience.

And the only difference in a PCT between a guy who’s been on for 14 weeks vs 4 years, is you really need to address the fact the testes have been atrophied for longer so a bigger dose of HCG should be run prior, and you want to make sure you have enough SERM signaling when it’s time. And don’t get gyno in the process.

It’s great you didn’t use HCG & were fine. I have done plenty without any as well. But saying that because one guy did it one way with one drug is like saying everyone else will only need 500mg test solo to get freaky big. And the doses recommended were not huge at all. They just didn’t have HCG or the Tamoxifen.

I guess I just want to ask you to keep an open mind here. That your experience is valid, but it doesn’t mean the other ways are trash or unnecessary for all. It’s going to depend on what his response is, which we can’t predict ahead of time.

What I meant was that I’m the only one (unless you or someone else confirmed with a sperm test that your sperm was zero?) that went from zero sperm to healthy sperm, at least with before/after results. I do know that others have had successful PCT’s.

I did use HCG, just not as much as you guys recommend. I really don’t think you need that much. Something we can agree on is that the higher dose the higher chance of sides. Idk, it could be a difference from 4 years to 14 years but if you have zero sperm you have zero sperm, you shouldn’t be able to go lower than zero just because you been on longer.

We might not agree on this but I do know that we agree on a lot of other things and your opinions is always welcome and appreciated. We can still be friends

 

[Hyde]

What I meant was that I’m the only one (unless you or someone else confirmed with a sperm test that your sperm was zero?) that went from zero sperm to healthy sperm, at least with before/after results. I do know that others have had successful PCT’s.

I did use HCG, just not as much as you guys recommend. I really don’t think you need that much. Something we can agree on is that the higher dose the higher chance of sides. Idk, it could be a difference from 4 years to 14 years but if you have zero sperm you have zero sperm, you shouldn’t be able to go lower than zero just because you been on longer.

We might not agree on this but I do know that we agree on a lot of other things and your opinions is always welcome and appreciated. We can still be friends

Lol true dat

That does bring up a point worth focusing on for OP’s friend: you CAN start with less. I mean you can literally take NOTHING and might recover, albeit slower. So how much you take is up to personal risk tolerance - risk of more sides vs risk of things not being sufficient and eventually having to double down later. And if your balls are pretty big, if you use HCG you might wanna err on the low side. Mine never got very small (no jokes intended) and I never needed very much.

Plus, some guys never recover, and if that’s the case then HCG & HMG until conception can work for some.

And things like the l-carnitine injections, ubiquinol & glutathione etc are not going to have sides but be all positive for health regardless.