Epistane...

[AndroRage]

So I’m thinking of using Epistane. It was close to year years ago I used it and don’t think I found an oral that worked quite like it at (for me) at 30mg-40mg.

However tried it again about 5 years ago and after couple weeks got terrible lethargy. Like debilitating.

Looking to try it again as the results were great, wasn’t for smaller and body weight went up; abs it wasn’t the glycogen/water type gains. It looked like actual tissue gain couple with bf drop. I call it ‘baby Tren’

So my question.

I’m thinking to use again as 4 week ‘kicker’ for cycle.

To mitigate lethargy Im thinking:

Tudca (1000mg)
CEL Cycle Assist (NAC 1500mg)
Krill oils (unsure of amount or may use higher strength omega)

Running Epistane for 20mg week 1 & 2 and 30mg for week 3 and maybe 40mg if not staying at 30mg for final week.

Will be running Test e at 200mg or 300mg
Will also be running Mast e at 200mg or 300mg also
Also have Ultra Hard which I’ll run at 3 pumps daily (Epi-Andro/Androsterone).

I’ve run the test and mast and they just generally make me fell good. Ultra hard, I used briefly (10 days and got ill) and liked it

Any other suggestions to mitigate lethargy ??

Or if you know or can suggest a compound that can potentially lower body fat and build muscle simultaneously (I know diet dependant) to use instead ?

I have D-plex, Mechabol, Anavar, Tbol (nice not as strong as Epi) in my stash

Thanks

 

[GQdaLEGEND]

Epistane is one of the best .. not as mild everyone makes it out to be .. 30-40mg is plenty.

I cant comment on Test/MastE since i have not run it or know what they bring to table ..so let others chime in on that.

Heres what i would do .. i wouldnt run ultra hard .. get a plain epi-andro, Androsterone can cause lethargy as well, which is why they have epi andro stacked with it i believe. Great product but if your main concern is lethargy alone w/ epistane i wouldnt run andro with it.

So epi andro for 8 weeks
epistane at last 5 weeks

don't want to go solo epi-andro, i believe D-plex is very similar .. can run that along with epistane to help fight lethargy

Also you don't have to always "stack ph's" if your running something strong, look into stacking it with natural fatburners/ muscle builders" .. i see more and more being done this and people are enjoying the less free sides and still reap the benefits of leaning out.

Bc lets be honest, our diet is more focused and dialed in on cycles and i feel thats the best time to take advantage

 

[Renew1]

I love Epiandro, but I would not run it with Epistane.
It is likely to contribute to your lethargy in this case.
There's a strong chance that the lethargy was (at least partially) a low Estrogen side. What did you run with the Epistane last time (if anything)?

 

[johnny412]

Side effects include infertility, behavioral changes, hair loss, and breast development (in men). Epistane can also lead to liver damage and heart disease.

omfg just STOP!!!

 

[AndroRage]

I love Epiandro, but I would not run it with Epistane.
It is likely to contribute to your lethargy in this case.
There's a strong chance that the lethargy was (at least partially) a low Estrogen side. What did you run with the Epistane last time (if anything)?

Epi andro and Ultra Hard specifically actually gives me energy. I ran Epistane with actual testosterone.

The only other thing that gave me bad lethargy was SD. I’ve read lethargy is associated with liver being comprised/taxed and I have experience it with ‘strong’ orals. Loss of appetite on both occasions also.

I also read of people using high dose tudca and this mitigating lethargy and appetite improvement.

I think Epi is abit stronger than a lot of people claim...

 

[Renew1]

Epi andro and Ultra Hard specifically actually gives me energy. I ran Epistane with actual testosterone.

The only other thing that gave me bad lethargy was SD. I’ve read lethargy is associated with liver being comprised/taxed and I have experience it with ‘strong’ orals. Loss of appetite on both occasions also.

I also read of people using high dose tudca and this mitigating lethargy and appetite improvement.

I think Epi is abit stronger than a lot of people claim...

The liver being taxed can definitely cause lethargy.
... So can low Estrogen.
Epistane is very antiestrogenic. Epiandro is also antiestrogenic, to a degree, which is why I don't normally recommend running them together.

Low Estrogen can make you feel very lethargic.

 

[gphagan1]

I see your adding Mast too, and that’s also anti-estrogenic. I’ve never ran those two together, but both can dry you out, so you would possibly see low estrogen and start having some aching joints.

 

[Renew1]

I see your adding Mast too, and that’s also anti-estrogenic. I’ve never ran those two together, but both can dry you out, so you would possibly see low estrogen and start having some aching joints.

.... And (possible) lethargy.
I've seen more than a couple of guys tank their Estrogen, and felt so bad, they had to stop (or interrupt) their cycles.

 

[CasperKValentine]

Side effects include infertility, behavioral changes, hair loss, and breast development (in men). Epistane can also lead to liver damage and heart disease.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

 

[CasperKValentine]

I see your adding Mast too, and that’s also anti-estrogenic. I’ve never ran those two together, but both can dry you out, so you would possibly see low estrogen and start having some aching joints.

I agree. Honestly why screw up your cycle over 4 weeks of epistane. That being said 200mg of test is my TRT dose that puts me in the upper normal range of ~700ng/dl or so. I've ran 400mg of test along with 400mg of Mast and it was a game changer for me. No noticeable negative sides and felt like a million bucks. I'd ditch the Epistane and up the dosage of test/mast. I'm almost certain you'd have a much better cycle.

 

[SkRaw85]

I see your adding Mast too, and that’s also anti-estrogenic. I’ve never ran those two together, but both can dry you out, so you would possibly see low estrogen and start having some aching joints.

Epistane alone dried my joints to the point of having to stop lifting or drop epistane. I chose the latter. I can’t even imagine the pain with mast in the mix also.

 

[WesleyInman]

I ran Epistane at 90mgs ED once for a log

I was ready to kill someone

Epistane is one of the best compounds on Earth. I love it as much as I do Var.

Its quite the anabolic. Nice to see it mentioned again. Haven't seen it being run by many in years.

 

[gphagan1]

I ran Epistane at 90mgs ED once for a log

I was ready to kill someone

Epistane is one of the best compounds on Earth. I love it as much as I do Var.

Its quite the anabolic. Nice to see it mentioned again. Haven't seen it being run by many in years.

Yeah I love Anavar too, also Test and Mast, but man my old joints can’t take Epistane anymore. But your right for those that don’t get the sides, nice dry gains.

 

[gphagan1]

I agree. Honestly why screw up your cycle over 4 weeks of epistane. That being said 200mg of test is my TRT dose that puts me in the upper normal range of ~700ng/dl or so. I've ran 400mg of test along with 400mg of Mast and it was a game changer for me. No noticeable negative sides and felt like a million bucks. I'd ditch the Epistane and up the dosage of test/mast. I'm almost certain you'd have a much better cycle.

This is what I would opt for…Test at 400, Mast at 400, for 12 weeks, and maybe finish with Anavar the last 4 weeks if all is going well.

 

[AndroRage]

I see your adding Mast too, and that’s also anti-estrogenic. I’ve never ran those two together, but both can dry you out, so you would possibly see low estrogen and start having some aching joints.

I’m quite sensitive to estrogenic related sodes and 250mg of Testosterone is borderline and 300mg with small amount of epistane, masteron and Epi-Andro will be interesting if they help someone sensitive to estro sides who isn’t using any form of AI... don’t you think?

So many people say DHT’s have no impact on estrogen, I believe they blunt its expression somewhat.

 

[CasperKValentine]

Why not just run an AI if needed? Seems like that would be better then trying to figure out what a little of this and that does. Besides you are only running the Epistane for the first 4 weeks. Test will still be building up after you come off the Epistane. Only way I'd consider running EpiAndro along with real gear is if I was running test only.

 

[gphagan1]

The problem with oral kickstarts the first 4 weeks is the impact on lipids and other health markers tends to happen fairly quickly as compared to injectables. So you start your cycle already in the negative with your lipids, and that in and of itself can cause lethargy. So basically you start your cycle in the negative with sides, and that usually doesn’t get better as you go. And yes all three of Mast, Epistane, and Epiandro do tend to lower estrogen in most. And as Renew said if your estrogen gets too low that’s another factor that can cause lethargy, as well as low libido, and just feeling like crap. So Epiandro even though it generally increases energy and drive, if you add it on top of Mast and Epistane the synergy between the three could definitely cause the low estrogen sides we’ve been talking about.
The problem is sides vary from person to person as well as results. So truthfully none of us could accurately predict what those three may do in your case. But you do know that Epistane caused lethargy the last time you ran it, so that probably means it had a negative impact on your lipids and other health markers fairly quickly. So if we just look at Epistane and realize there is a chance that you start your cycle battling lethargy as well as other sides, there is a good chance your whole cycle will go like that. Then with adding Mast and Epiandro we can’t say for sure that’s going to help lethargy, but there is a real good chance those three will cause your estrogen to drop too low bringing on even more sides. So even though your estrogen tends to go high with Test, we just don’t know if adding the other compounds will do what your theorizing.
I wouldn’t start with an oral kickstart, but I would start with Test 400 and Mast 400 and be patient, and add any extra compounds later in the cycle. The best cycles, with keepable gains, are generally slow and steady and you build as the cycle goes on. That’s why now if I do orals I finish with them instead of starting. That way the cycle still has more you can squeeze out of it as you go, instead of shooting your wad in the first few weeks and then trying to make gains through the early sides, and having less compounds as you go. Generally those cycles stall out, and the gains aren’t as keepable.
So if you went Test 400 Mast 400 for 12 weeks, and then felt like you needed to add more towards the end you could add the oral the last 4 weeks. That way you already have the Test and Mast doing their thing, and possibly wouldn’t notice the lethargy as quickly or maybe not at all, but if worst case you did have to bail because of negative sides you’ve already gotten in a pretty decent cycle. Again I personally wouldn’t run Epistane and Mast together, because I really think the potential for joint issues would be too great, especially with the strength gains and wanting to push and up the weight as we do on cycles. But if you just really wanted to run the Epistane with the Mast, at least by finishing with it, it’s not a lost cycle. There actually are some good compounds to run with Test and Mast that the synergy works very well together, it’s just with Epistane most people would probably get dried out too much. Hopefully that makes sense. I didn’t mean to write a mini book just trying to explain something that hopefully helps.

 

[Screwtape]

I used it when it first came out, great for strength, but dropped my HDL so low my doctor thought it was a lab error and had them repeat the test.

 

[Hyde]

I ran Epistane at 90mgs ED once for a log

I was ready to kill someone

Epistane is one of the best compounds on Earth. I love it as much as I do Var.

Its quite the anabolic. Nice to see it mentioned again. Haven't seen it being run by many in years.

I’ve done 80 for a few weeks at the end of a meet prep and didn’t see any perceivable benefit over 60mg. 60 was my sweetspot where maximal effects were noticed. But that was nearly a decade ago; I tried to use it at 45mg just a few years after and couldn’t tolerate the joint pain remotely. Ditched it after a few weeks.