Epistane with IF Alpha 7 and Alpha Eleven

[alisaman]

Any synergy in this combo or on the contrary? Full dosages of each or less? I am 170 bf about 12% - thank you beforehand guys!

 

[Sparta12]

full doses, should be fine

 

[cheftepesh1]

You should be fine. Not sure if you would need both 7 and 11 with epistane.

 

[ugsavage]

I wouldn't go any higher then 30 mg on the Epi. Keep the Andros around 500 mg each and should be a nice ride. If you have test in the mix then you can run Epi a little higher just be careful not to crash estrogen

 

[SBH]

Ya be careful with the epistane. Low E is tough on the joints.

 

[KvanH]

Yeah, looks very dry. I'd rather switch the Alpha 7 to Dermacrine or 4-Andro (I'm assuming you're not pinning).

 

[BCseacow83]

Yeah, looks very dry. I'd rather switch the Alpha 7 to Dermacrine or 4-Andro (I'm assuming you're not pinning).

I agree. Those three together would be too dry for me personally. OP what is the overall goal here? I do think something for test/estrogen production should be included if for nothing other than quality of life.

 

[alisaman]

I have Dermacrine as well, and will be using it. The goal is recomp - lean out considerably and gain some muscle if possible as well. I am thinking full dose Ultra Eleven, 2 pumps Alpha Seven and 20-30 mg epi with slow ramp up from 10 mg for first few days

 

[alisaman]

You should be fine. Not sure if you would need both 7 and 11 with epistane.

True, but do they overlap or work on top of each other?

 

[alisaman]

Yeah, looks very dry. I'd rather switch the Alpha 7 to Dermacrine or 4-Andro (I'm assuming you're not pinning).

No pinning hehe

 

[ugsavage]

I have Dermacrine as well, and will be using it. The goal is recomp - lean out considerably and gain some muscle if possible as well. I am thinking full dose Ultra Eleven, 2 pumps Alpha Seven and 20-30 mg epi with slow ramp up from 10 mg for first few days

That's three different TD products. Is your plan to apply them all at once?

One dose of Ultra Eleven is only 200 mg of 11 Keto. I would personally want to double that. Alpha 7 is 200 mg of Androsterone so you should be good with one dose.

I would start the Epi at 20 mg for the first week and then bump to 30

True, but do they overlap or work on top of each other?

They are different bro. 11 keto and Androsterone are both downstream hormones but have different functions entirely

 

[AndroRage]

That's three different TD products. Is your plan to apply them all at once?

One dose of Ultra Eleven is only 200 mg of 11 Keto. I would personally want to double that. Alpha 7 is 200 mg of Androsterone so you should be good with one dose.

I would start the Epi at 20 mg for the first week and then bump to 30



They are different bro. 11 keto and Androsterone are both downstream hormones but have different functions entirely

Double 11 Keto from 200mg (to 400mg)?

Typo Bruh ??!!

 

[ugsavage]

Double 11 Keto from 200mg (to 400mg)?

Typo Bruh ??!!

Well from my understanding 11 keto should have similar effects to 11 oxo and should actually be dosed higher. I know bioavailability is different with TD but still I would go for at least 500 mg

 

[KvanH]

Well from my understanding 11 keto should have similar effects to 11 oxo and should actually be dosed higher. I know bioavailability is different with TD but still I would go for at least 500 mg

11-oxo is a PH to 11-KT, but like with many PH's I believe it to have effects of it's own too. Not that 400 mg or even 500 mg of 11-KT is outrageous or anything, that would actually probably be quite nice, if looking to build muscle with it and I've seen people using that much. But by the estimations I've seen, people seem to think 11-KT to be about 4 times as effective as 11-oxo. So 200 mg of 11-KT would equal about ~800 mg of 11-oxo, or in that ball park. But that's just peoples estimations and the ratio of effectiveness is most likely not linear. I've used both, but tough to make a comparison, since they were parts of a different stacks.

However, 200 mg of 11-KT is considered a good dose for cutting and improving body composition. Many see good results with 150 mg. I think the OL's Super-11, which was very popular a few years ago was recommended to dose between 125 mg - 250 mg, the higher end being more usual.

Anyway, I think 200 mg of 11-KT would be fine and would do it's thing with Epistane in the stack. Epistane will bring the anabolism. I'd personally rather throw in 10 mg more of Epistane, than 200 mg more of 11-KT. With the price tag and TD application and all. That's just how I see it - mho.

Would be fun to try the 400 mg range some day though. Some say it starts to be like Anavar at those doses. One could then of course say why not get Anavar then, heh. But just hypothetically, if it wouldn't get so pricy, I'd be down to try 400 or 500 mg or more. I'm doing 200 mg a day right now.

 

[alisaman]

11-oxo is a PH to 11-KT, but like with many PH's I believe it to have effects of it's own too. Not that 400 mg or even 500 mg of 11-KT is out rageous or anything, that would actually probably be quite nice, if looking to build muscle with it and I've seen people using that much. But by the estimations I've seen, people seem to think 11-KT to be about 4 times as effective as 11-oxo. So 200 mg of 11-KT would equal about ~800 mg of 11-oxo, or in that ball park. But that's just peoples estimations and the ratio of effectiveness is most likely not linear. I've used both, but tough to make a comparison, since they were parts of a different stacks.

However, 200 mg of 11-KT is considered a good dose for cutting and improving body composition. Many see good results with 150 mg. I think the OL's Super-11, which was very popular a few years ago was recommended to dose between 125 mg - 250 mg, the higher end being more usual.

Anyway, I think 200 mg of 11-KT would be fine and would do it's thing with Epistane in the stack. Epistane will bring the anabolism. I'd personally rather throw in 10 mg more of Epistane, than 200 mg more of 11-KT. With the price tag and TD application and all. That's just how I see it - mho.

Would be fun to try the 400 mg range some day though. Some say it starts to be like Anavar at those doses. One could then of course say why not get Anavar then, heh. But just hypothetically, if it wouldn't get that pricy, I'd be down to try 400 or 500 mg or more. I'm doing 200 mg a day right now.

Anavar is not easy to get and Epistane is often compared to it as well afaik. I have 11-kt at 200 mg a day for 2 months so that would be the dose. Have plenty of Alpha Seven and Dermacrine. Should I wait with Sustain Alpha (which I also have) till after? Any suggestions for supps in case of dry joints?

 

[KvanH]

Anavar is not easy to get and Epistane is often compared to it as well afaik. I have 11-kt at 200 mg a day for 2 months so that would be the dose. Have plenty of Alpha Seven and Dermacrine. Should I wait with Sustain Alpha (which I also have) till after? Any suggestions for supps in case of dry joints?

Yeah, I was just saying how some people have compared the high doses of 11-KT being kind of like Anavar. 200 mg should be fine and that's also what I'm running now. I've seen Epistane compared to Winny more often, but that's not important, lol. They're all different compounds. Save the SA for pct.

Some typical joint support supps:
Cissus
Glucosamine sulphate
MSM
Chondroitin suplhate
Vitamin C

Voltaren gel

I like Cissus and irregularly Voltaren gel.

 

[AndroRage]

11-oxo is a PH to 11-KT, but like with many PH's I believe it to have effects of it's own too. Not that 400 mg or even 500 mg of 11-KT is out rageous or anything, that would actually probably be quite nice, if looking to build muscle with it and I've seen people using that much. But by the estimations I've seen, people seem to think 11-KT to be about 4 times as effective as 11-oxo. So 200 mg of 11-KT would equal about ~800 mg of 11-oxo, or in that ball park. But that's just peoples estimations and the ratio of effectiveness is most likely not linear. I've used both, but tough to make a comparison, since they were parts of a different stacks.

However, 200 mg of 11-KT is considered a good dose for cutting and improving body composition. Many see good results with 150 mg. I think the OL's Super-11, which was very popular a few years ago was recommended to dose between 125 mg - 250 mg, the higher end being more usual.

Anyway, I think 200 mg of 11-KT would be fine and would do it's thing with Epistane in the stack. Epistane will bring the anabolism. I'd personally rather throw in 10 mg more of Epistane, than 200 mg more of 11-KT. With the price tag and TD application and all. That's just how I see it - mho.

Would be fun to try the 400 mg range some day though. Some say it starts to be like Anavar at those doses. One could then of course say why not get Anavar then, heh. But just hypothetically, if it wouldn't get that pricy, I'd be down to try 400 or 500 mg or more. I'm doing 200 mg a day right now.

What are you running with the 200mg 11 Keto Bro?
Guessing your using Ultra Eleven?

 

[KvanH]

What are you running with the 200mg 11 Keto Bro?
Guessing your using Ultra Eleven?

Yep, Ultra Eleven. I wanted to do a nice and mild, easy going spring cut, so I planned to do U-11 only, but started to feel like I needed a little push, so added Epiandro, 750 mg preWO and 500 mg on non training days. I'm also taking a little Proviron, just cause' I have some laying around and it makes me feel good.

5 weeks in on U-11, 1-2 weeks with Epiandro, 10 weeks cutting behind overall. Nothing remarkable to report, it's going like my cuts usually go. I have been running some mildish gear on all of my cuts the last few years though. This is possibly the mildest stack I've run health and suppression wise and the cut is going 'normally', so I'd say it's going ok. Retaining my strenght ok and energy levels are ok considering.

 

[delsolrob]

11-keto and epistane was one of my favorite combinations, I also really loved 11-keto and Halodrol.

11-keto is quite androgenic and should pair really nicely with something anabolic...like epistane.

There is likely no reason to run 11-keto at 500mg/day! as stated above, 11-OXO is the PH to 11-keto...11-keto is the target steroid. 200mg is what I would consider to be an aggressive dose.

 

[alisaman]

11-keto and epistane was one of my favorite combinations, I also really loved 11-keto and Halodrol.

11-keto is quite androgenic and should pair really nicely with something anabolic...like epistane.

There is likely no reason to run 11-keto at 500mg/day! as stated above, 11-OXO is the PH to 11-keto...11-keto is the target steroid. 200mg is what I would consider to be an aggressive dose.

It was exactly my thought with 11 keto in regard to androgenic effect on top of epistane anabolic effect!!! 200 mg it is then!

 

[AndroRage]

11-keto and epistane was one of my favorite combinations, I also really loved 11-keto and Halodrol.

11-keto is quite androgenic and should pair really nicely with something anabolic...like epistane.

There is likely no reason to run 11-keto at 500mg/day! as stated above, 11-OXO is the PH to 11-keto...11-keto is the target steroid. 200mg is what I would consider to be an aggressive dose.

With the androgenic component of 11- Keto could it be utilised as a ‘test base’ as such? I ask as a test base is used mainly for the androgenic components is bring (Mood, libido, energy) etc. Seems viable. Fairly sure it’s the main androgen in fish too (obviously we aren’t fish) but just thinking aloud

 

[ugsavage]

11-keto and epistane was one of my favorite combinations, I also really loved 11-keto and Halodrol.

11-keto is quite androgenic and should pair really nicely with something anabolic...like epistane.

There is likely no reason to run 11-keto at 500mg/day! as stated above, 11-OXO is the PH to 11-keto...11-keto is the target steroid. 200mg is what I would consider to be an aggressive dose.

200 mg an aggressive dose?! Typo bruh??

My question is why not run 11 KT at 500 mg? That's like saying nah just run your test at 250 mg. I know they are completely different compounds but regardless there is a direct correlation between dosage and results.

OP is cutting. Epistane will build lean mass and increase endurance but for cutting 11 KT will be doing the work. 11 KT will literally melt fat by inhibiting cortisol production. Sure with certain compounds less is more however for 11 KT 500 mg is the sweet spot. Any higher and you will crash your cortisol but any lower and you won't be getting the sought after cutting/ recomp effect

 

[ugsavage]

With the androgenic component of 11- Keto could it be utilised as a ‘test base’ as such? I ask as a test base is used mainly for the androgenic components is bring (Mood, libido, energy) etc. Seems viable. Fairly sure it’s the main androgen in fish too (obviously we aren’t fish) but just thinking aloud

11KT is better for cutting/ recomp. Androsterone and Epi Andro are better for a "test base"

 

[delsolrob]

With the androgenic component of 11- Keto could it be utilised as a ‘test base’ as such? I ask as a test base is used mainly for the androgenic components is bring (Mood, libido, energy) etc. Seems viable. Fairly sure it’s the main androgen in fish too (obviously we aren’t fish) but just thinking aloud

11-keto offers many of the benefits we'd want in a base, but it's lacking the conversion to estrogen...if you wanted to use it this way, I may recommend a low dose of DHEA or Dermacrine with it.

 

[ugsavage]

11-keto offers many of the benefits we'd want in a base, but it's lacking the conversion to estrogen...if you wanted to use it this way, I may recommend a low dose of DHEA or Dermacrine with it.

Mood, energy, libido? Doubtful. 11 KT is a downstream hormone from T. 11 KT is not likely very androgenic. If you would like to post some studies proving otherwise then post them but they don't exist

 

[nostrum420]

"The potent AR agonist 11KT is the predominant circulating active androgen in patients with CRPC and, therefore, one of the potential drivers of AR activation in CRPC."

11-Ketotestosterone is the predominant active androgen in prostate cancer patients after castration

Continued androgen receptor (AR) signaling constitutes a key target for treatment in metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer (CRPC). Studies have identified 11-ketotestosterone (11KT) as a potent AR agonist, but it is unknown if 11KT is present ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The current study indicates that 11-KT is produced in the gonads and represents a major androgen in human. It can potentially serve as a nonaromatizable androgen."

11-Ketotestosterone Is a Major Androgen Produced in Human Gonads

Context:. 11-ketotestosterone (11-KT) is a novel class of active androgen. However, the detail of its synthesis remains unknown for humans.Objective:. The objec

academic.oup.com

 

[ugsavage]

"The potent AR agonist 11KT is the predominant circulating active androgen in patients with CRPC and, therefore, one of the potential drivers of AR activation in CRPC."

11-Ketotestosterone is the predominant active androgen in prostate cancer patients after castration

Continued androgen receptor (AR) signaling constitutes a key target for treatment in metastatic castration-resistant prostate cancer (CRPC). Studies have identified 11-ketotestosterone (11KT) as a potent AR agonist, but it is unknown if 11KT is present ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

"The current study indicates that 11-KT is produced in the gonads and represents a major androgen in human. It can potentially serve as a nonaromatizable androgen."

11-Ketotestosterone Is a Major Androgen Produced in Human Gonads

Context:. 11-ketotestosterone (11-KT) is a novel class of active androgen. However, the detail of its synthesis remains unknown for humans.Objective:. The objec

academic.oup.com

At what point does this indicate that 11 KT is predominantly androgenic? Lmao

All those studies prove is that 11 KT is a bio identical hormone. It is still a downstream hormone from T which itself is only mildly androgenic. So just from a basic understanding of chemistry 11 KT would be less androgenic than T.

Please feel free to post a study proving that 11 KT or ANY downstream bio identical hormone already produced in the body is predominantly androgenic because I can assure you there are no such studies that exist like I already stated. Downstream hormones play multiple different biological roles in the body but they DO NOT work like AAS!

That being said I have ran 11 OXO several times and there was no increase in mood, strength, energy, or libido. It typically makes you feel lethargic due to lowering your cortisol however adding Alpha 7 and/ or Epi Andro would easily solve that problem

 

[nostrum420]

At what point does this indicate that 11 KT is predominantly androgenic? Lmao

All those studies prove is that 11 KT is a bio identical hormone. It is still a downstream hormone from T which itself is only mildly androgenic. So just from a basic understanding of chemistry 11 KT would be less androgenic than T.

Please feel free to post a study proving that 11 KT or ANY downstream bio identical hormone already produced in the body is predominantly androgenic because I can assure you there are no such studies that exist like I already stated. Downstream hormones play multiple different biological roles in the body but they DO NOT work like AAS!

That being said I have ran 11 OXO several times and there was no increase in mood, strength, energy, or libido. It typically makes you feel lethargic due to lowering your cortisol however adding Alpha 7 and/ or Epi Andro would easily solve that problem

Define "predominantly androgenic."

 

[nostrum420]

At what point does this indicate that 11 KT is predominantly androgenic? Lmao

All those studies prove is that 11 KT is a bio identical hormone. It is still a downstream hormone from T which itself is only mildly androgenic. So just from a basic understanding of chemistry 11 KT would be less androgenic than T.

Please feel free to post a study proving that 11 KT or ANY downstream bio identical hormone already produced in the body is predominantly androgenic because I can assure you there are no such studies that exist like I already stated. Downstream hormones play multiple different biological roles in the body but they DO NOT work like AAS!

That being said I have ran 11 OXO several times and there was no increase in mood, strength, energy, or libido. It typically makes you feel lethargic due to lowering your cortisol however adding Alpha 7 and/ or Epi Andro would easily solve that problem

You said "11 KT is not likely very androgenic."

The study says it's a "potent AR agonist"

You know what AR stands for, right?

I don't know how much more of a direct refutation of your statement you could get.

 

[ugsavage]

You said "11 KT is not likely very androgenic."

The study says it's a "potent AR agonist"

You know what AR stands for, right?

I don't know how much more of a direct refutation of your statement you could get.

Right but that study was done on cancer patients with chemical castration. 11 KT was only deemed potent at activating the AR because it was in the absence of Test and took over AR signaling.

What you don't understand is that downstream hormones are not AAS. 11 KT would only very slightly bind to the AR in a normal person where T is present. Making 11 KT only mildly androgenic. Just because a hormone binds to the AR the binding affinity is what determines how androgenic the compound is. And like I said downstream bio identical hormones are not going to have strong binding affinity to the AR in normal healthy males with healthy T levels. Post me a study proving me otherwise but like I already said they don't exist

 

[nostrum420]

Right but that study was done on cancer patients with chemical castration. 11 KT was only deemed potent at activating the AR because it was in the absence of Test and took over AR signaling.

What you don't understand is that downstream hormones are not AAS. 11 KT would only very slightly bind to the AR in a normal person where T is present. Making 11 KT only mildly androgenic. Just because a hormone binds to the AR the binding affinity is what determines how androgenic the compound is. And like I said downstream bio identical hormones are not going to have strong binding affinity to the AR in normal healthy males with healthy T levels. Post me a study proving me otherwise but like I already said they don't exist

You didn't get all the way to link number 2?

 

[nostrum420]

 

[ugsavage]

You didn't get all the way to link number 2?

All that other study shows is endogenous levels of test and DHT compared to 11 KT showing they all activate the AR at similar strength. But what is demonstrated on paper will not always turn out to be how exogenous hormones work when being introduced to the body

 

[VoodooFlex]

Where is a great place to purchase Epistane?

 

[delsolrob]

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0159867

In this study we comprehensively assess the androgenic activity of 11KT and 11KDHT. This is the first study, to our knowledge, to show that 11KT and 11KDHT, like T and DHT, are potent and efficacious agonists of the human androgen receptor (AR) and induced both the expression of representative AR-regulated genes as well as cellular proliferation in the androgen dependent prostate cancer cell lines, LNCaP and VCaP. Proteomic analysis revealed that 11KDHT regulated the expression of more AR-regulated proteins than DHT in VCaP cells, while in vitro conversion assays showed that 11KT and 11KDHT are metabolized at a significantly lower rate in both LNCaP and VCaP cells when compared to T and DHT, respectively. Our findings show that 11KT and 11KDHT are bona fide androgens capable of inducing androgen-dependant gene expression and cell growth, and that these steroids have the potential to remain active longer than T and DHT due to the decreased rate at which they are metabolised. Collectively, our data demonstrates that 11KT and 11KDHT likely play a vital, but overlooked, role in the development and progression of CRPC.

 

[nostrum420]

All that other study shows is endogenous levels of test and DHT compared to 11 KT showing they all activate the AR at similar strength. But what is demonstrated on paper will not always turn out to be how exogenous hormones work when being introduced to the body

You're grasping at straws now. All the evidence is contradictory to your original statement that "11 KT is not likely very androgenic." and you've presented 0 evidence to support your claim. In fact, the word "likely" seems to indicate this is your personal supposition.

"what is demonstrated on paper will not always turn out to be how exogenous hormones work when being introduced to the body"

It seems like you're looking for a clinical trial here. There are no clinical trials for most AAS in otherwise healthy patients. Following your logic we wouldn't have sufficient evidence to conclude that masteron is "predominantly androgenic."

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

11KTs andronicity is EXACTLY why PA brought the stuff to market.

 

[ugsavage]

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0159867

Again this study was done on androgen dependent prostate cancer cells. This proves nothing like I already stated. Please post me a study done on healthy males with circulating T

"This study provides comprehensive evidence that 11KT and 11KDHT are potent and efficacious AR agonists, capable of driving gene regulation, protein expression and cell growth in androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells"

 

[ugsavage]

You're grasping at straws now. All the evidence is contradictory to your original statement that "11 KT is not likely very androgenic." and you've presented 0 evidence to support your claim. In fact, the word "likely" seems to indicate this is your personal supposition.

"what is demonstrated on paper will not always turn out to be how exogenous hormones work when being introduced to the body"

It seems like you're looking for a clinical trial here. There are no clinical trials for most AAS in otherwise healthy patients. Following your logic we wouldn't have sufficient evidence to conclude that masteron is "predominantly androgenic."

View attachment 216291

Your correct this is my personal opinion. 11 oxo/ 11 KT was only mildly androgenic compared to compounds such as masteron and halotestin. Like I already stated just because 11 KT can activate the AR in the absence of T proves nothing. That's it bruh end of story. Post all the dumb ass memes you want it proves nothing

It seems like you're looking for a clinical trial here. There are no clinical trials for most AAS in otherwise healthy patients. Following your logic we wouldn't have sufficient evidence to conclude that masteron is "predominantly androgenic."

No clinical trials for most AAS? What about Test, Deca, Dianabol, Anavar, and Masteron? Lmao you have a great day man

 

[nostrum420]

Again this study was done on androgen dependent prostate cancer cells. This proves nothing like I already stated. Please post me a study done on healthy males with circulating T

"This study provides comprehensive evidence that 11KT and 11KDHT are potent and efficacious AR agonists, capable of driving gene regulation, protein expression and cell growth in androgen-dependent prostate cancer cells"

Again, you're creating a ridiculous standard.

Like I said, almost no AAS have the kinds of studies you seem to be looking for.

They typically don't just give healthy people drugs just to see what'll happen.

 

[ugsavage]

Again, you're creating a ridiculous standard.

Like I said, almost no AAS have the kinds of studies you seem to be looking for.

They typically don't just give healthy people drugs just to see what'll happen.

Like I said have a great day!

 

[nostrum420]

Like I said have a great day!

You too buddy!