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Epistane, Trest, Super-11

sespress

Well-known member
I'm doing a bit of rethink on my next cycle. I've just fished PCT from an 8 week 4-andro/Epi-Andro run and I plan on keeping clean for 6 weeks before starting. This is going to be a 6 week cycle.

Epistane 30/30/30/45/45/45
Tr3st oral 25/25/25/50/50/50 PWO.
Super-11 as directed.
Arm1care Pro (as directed)

Edit:
forgot to mention my supports:
MK677 12.5mg ed
Tudca by OL: I do realize this is a double methyl setup.
Taurine as needed for painful pumps.


Exemestane 12.5mg every day.

PCT
Clomid/Nolva split dose 25/25/25/12.5 (each)

Can I stack anything else on this to assist? Prior to my last run i was in the mid 30% bf range. Down now to 26.x per my body comp scale. I expect to get another 3-4% bf down during this next few weeks of break thanks to diet, exercise, OxyMax, and Invictus. Results are showing!

After last cycle.
Invalid Link Removed

Yesterday (some loss in size but reduction in fat)
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

I need to work on better pics... Lol.
 
In first! Pics are fine my man. Maybe pose so you can show before after a little better.

<< still has to pose for his next log. Lol.
 
justhere4comm said:
In first! Pics are fine my man. Maybe pose so you can show before after a little better.

<< still has to pose for his next log. Lol.
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Thanks boss, about a year ago I topped 275lbs, and it finally hit home that something needed to change. Went down to 250, started working out but was always hurting myself. Finally got the groove back on (thanks MK677) and went up to 268 with 6lbs being muscle, the rest water retention. Back down to 258 now and dropping continually bit slowly losing a bit of muscle.

The idea with this cycle is to recomp further. The more time i spend working out with more lb's of muscle the more fat I'll burn. I may lose some of the muscle but that comes back. The fat stays off.
 
I'm not sure about the stane ED. Maybe too high dose too. Will differ to someone with more stane experience.

Just seems high. May crush your E. Everyone is different but 6.25 EOD seems more app.

It may not even be needed at all. I would have it on hand in case. Would be good to prevent rebound in last two weeks of PCT.
 
Even with Tr3st aromatizing into methyl E? I guess I'm running on the side of MORE is better, but I understand that's not always the case. I should notice within a day or two if that dose is too high. I can actually start it eod at 12.5 and see what happens. That's a happy middle ground.
 
sespress said:
Ha and I work nights so I'm always responding to crap way late in the game.

Any advice for me?
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Cycle looks solid . Good first pics ! Ill be subbed!

For the exemestane , eod should be fine . People will argue about waiting for symptoms or taking it fron the start. Crush E to much gains libido and mental state go to ****.
 
sespress said:
Even with Tr3st aromatizing into methyl E? I guess I'm running on the side of MORE is better, but I understand that's not always the case. I should notice within a day or two if that dose is too high. I can actually start it eod at 12.5 and see what happens. That's a happy middle ground.
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You're running a low dose Trest. I used 12.5 mg EOD on 100mg Trest. You never want to crush estrogen. You need it. I'd start at 6.25mg EOD and adjust from there.
 
Run a 10-20% calorie deficit based on your current maintenance calories. So 3000 daily would be 300-600 calorie less daily food intake. You could very likely lose 10-12 lbs BF. Gain 5-6 lbs LBM. Train hard!!
 
I don't have any advice on that setup. No experience with trest or epistane. Just finished PCT on my first PH cycle of Epidrone + 4-andro. I'll be running trest/1/4/epi-andro, within a week. Regardless, I'm definitely in for the gainz (and losses!).
 
sespress said:
I'm doing a bit of rethink on my next cycle. I've just fished PCT from an 8 week 4-andro/Epi-Andro run and I plan on keeping clean for 6 weeks before starting. This is going to be a 6 week cycle.

Epistane 30/30/30/45/45/45
Tr3st oral 25/25/25/50/50/50 PWO.
Super-11 as directed.
Arm1care Pro (as directed)

Edit:
forgot to mention my supports:
MK677 12.5mg ed
Tudca by OL: I do realize this is a double methyl setup.
Taurine as needed for painful pumps.


Exemestane 12.5mg every day.

PCT
Clomid/Nolva split dose 25/25/25/12.5 (each)

Can I stack anything else on this to assist? Prior to my last run i was in the mid 30% bf range. Down now to 26.x per my body comp scale. I expect to get another 3-4% bf down during this next few weeks of break thanks to diet, exercise, OxyMax, and Invictus. Results are showing!

After last cycle.
Invalid Link Removed

Yesterday (some loss in size but reduction in fat)
Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

I need to work on better pics... Lol.
Click to expand...

Cycle looks good brother!!! Some thoughts I have are to run the sup3r-11 for 8 weeks! I'd also add in some sup3r-epi at 500-750mg and run that when you finish the epistane... I might even add it in a little beforehand, if you're not feeling incredibly dry from the epistane.

For PCT I'd run

Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Exem 0/0/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod

Epistane, from what I've read, can cause rebound gyno, which is why they recommend running a suicidal AI after cessation of SERMS... mind you, this is from what I've read and so I'm repeating research; I don't have 1st hand experience running epistane.

Another thing I might do is drop MK677 during the cycle. I love MK but think you'll get a better idea of progress without it. For me I have a horrible time controlling diet on it and also tend to bloat on occasion.

Other than that, what's your diet and training gonna look like? I think your gonna get some sick results with this set up!!!
 
mmorso said:
Cycle looks good brother!!! Some thoughts I have are to run the sup3r-11 for 8 weeks! I'd also add in some sup3r-epi at 500-750mg and run that when you finish the epistane... I might even add it in a little beforehand, if you're not feeling incredibly dry from the epistane.

For PCT I'd run

Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Exem 0/0/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod

Epistane, from what I've read, can cause rebound gyno, which is why they recommend running a suicidal AI after cessation of SERMS... mind you, this is from what I've read and so I'm repeating research; I don't have 1st hand experience running epistane.

Another thing I might do is drop MK677 during the cycle. I love MK but think you'll get a better idea of progress without it. For me I have a horrible time controlling diet on it and also tend to bloat on occasion.

Other than that, what's your diet and training gonna look like? I think your gonna get some sick results with this set up!!!
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I've got a strange schedule at work and overnight so I've been slamming most exercise into a 4 day push/pull schedule. I'd like to get into hst but I need to get off of nights first. I'll do basic stuff at work. Push-ups and sit-ups, lunges, whatever i can during my lonely, sometimes boring 13 hour overnight shifts. When I'm off I've been in the gym about 1.5 hours a day, I've been shooting for a 6 hour per week minimum, but I've had to help move a house (exercise enough) and other crap gets in the way. I bought some stuff for home, TRX bands, a wooden set of 12" elevated bars to do seated dips for triceps, a straight bar and some disc weights going up to 250lbs, so I can still get a session in no matter what's going on.

I'm still planning out my diet, right now I'm eating a bit less to try and shed fat, but I've lost a bit of muscle too. I think I'm just going to go for a healthy 2k calories when I run this, however that hashes out into chicken and a big bag of ancient grains medley, lol.
 
mmorso said:
Cycle looks good brother!!! Some thoughts I have are to run the sup3r-11 for 8 weeks! I'd also add in some sup3r-epi at 500-750mg and run that when you finish the epistane... I might even add it in a little beforehand, if you're not feeling incredibly dry from the epistane.

For PCT I'd run

Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Exem 0/0/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod/12.5eod

Epistane, from what I've read, can cause rebound gyno, which is why they recommend running a suicidal AI after cessation of SERMS... mind you, this is from what I've read and so I'm repeating research; I don't have 1st hand experience running epistane.

Another thing I might do is drop MK677 during the cycle. I love MK but think you'll get a better idea of progress without it. For me I have a horrible time controlling diet on it and also tend to bloat on occasion.

Other than that, what's your diet and training gonna look like? I think your gonna get some sick results with this set up!!!
Click to expand...
You know I have plenty of leftover Epi andro, like probably enough to go 6 weeks on its own. So I could swap it out, or even phase one out and phase the other in. More than likely though (you've got me thinking) the PWO of all PWO might be 500 Epi-Andro + 25-50 Trest 30 minutes before workout taken together. I'm actually fantasizing right now ....

The MK was to help with the dryness. I'm not sure if I care if the results aren't crazy viable during the run. But I hear you on appetite. The OxyMax counteracts it mostly, so if I continue the MK I'll continue the Oxy a well to start with, and if it doesn't jive with all the other junk I'll drop them together.

Try MK at the dose I was listing, the 25-30mg level is way too much. For a support it's great at sub 12.5mg, and I take it before bed so it doesn't mess with me.
 
dvw said:
Run a 10-20% calorie deficit based on your current maintenance calories. So 3000 daily would be 300-600 calorie less daily food intake. You could very likely lose 10-12 lbs BF. Gain 5-6 lbs LBM. Train hard!!
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Thank you for that, I'm always struggling to map this out so I've been going with the "what leaves me slightly hungry" method of dieting, but that won't work on a cycle when my appetite will likely increase again.

When you go into deficits do you drop calories evenly throughout food groups? Mostly drop carb or fat intake? I was thinking about some pea protein to eliminate any lipid from my shakes, take a few calories out there.

Let me know what you do,
 
Woody said:
You're running a low dose Trest. I used 12.5 mg EOD on 100mg Trest. You never want to crush estrogen. You need it. I'd start at 6.25mg EOD and adjust from there.
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Thank you for the scale on that, lol. This is good news it means I'll have that much more and won't need to buy again!
 
bighulksmash said:
Cycle looks solid . Good first pics ! Ill be subbed!

For the exemestane , eod should be fine . People will argue about waiting for symptoms or taking it fron the start. Crush E to much gains libido and mental state go to ****.
Click to expand...
I did do that on my first doses of it a month or so ago. Straight into the pits. My girl said I must be going through "manopause", I took 25mg every day three days in a row and it was not fun, so I won't miss the signs of low e again! Woody has suggested a lower amount at 6.x and I think I'll start it there and see what happens.
 
sespress said:
I did do that on my first doses of it a month or so ago. Straight into the pits. My girl said I must be going through "manopause", I took 25mg every day three days in a row and it was not fun, so I won't miss the signs of low e again! Woody has suggested a lower amount at 6.x and I think I'll start it there and see what happens.
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Call it like you see it .
 
sespress do you know what your TDEE is? I'd base your total kcal intake (whether surplus or deficit) off your TDEE for starters. When it comes to macros, Id go for moderate carbs when recomping and lower carbs or keto when cutting... that's my preference at least
 
mmorso said:
sespress do you know what your TDEE is? I'd base your total kcal intake (whether surplus or deficit) off your TDEE for starters. When it comes to macros, Id go for moderate carbs when recomping and lower carbs or keto when cutting... that's my preference at least
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I am going to need to look that term up my friend, never did macros, just eyeballed it and made sure I didn't over eat. I'll weigh a portion of something then package it up as a serving. But it might be time to get out a spreadsheet and whatnot.
 
sespress said:
I am going to need to look that term up my friend, never did macros, just eyeballed it and made sure I didn't over eat. I'll weigh a portion of something then package it up as a serving. But it might be time to get out a spreadsheet and whatnot.
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Total daily energy expenditure. Basically how many calories you burn a day just doing life. When I cut, I calculate my TDEE with a sedentary job. Your TDEE will be less if you do less (I.e sit on your ass all day) so it helps when cutting. When I bulk, I calculate it as highly active.

Use 2-3 different websites IMO.
 
I wouldn't add exemestane until sides show. That low dose of Trest should he fine with just armicare pro. Other than that cycle looks good. Crush it.
 
Woody said:
Total daily energy expenditure. Basically how many calories you burn a day just doing life. When I cut, I calculate my TDEE with a sedentary job. Your TDEE will be less if you do less (I.e sit on your ass all day) so it helps when cutting. When I bulk, I calculate it as highly active.

Use 2-3 different websites IMO.
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Can you share these sites? I'm very interested I'm reading about it now.
 
Honestly you could just run the exact same drugs you ran the first time but dial in the diet.
I bet your before and after pics would be way impressive if you get hard core about macros.
 
If you ran Epiandro and 4andro full blast and added 1andro you will feel good and get strong.
Run the Epiandro at 1000mg and 1and4 at 500 mg.
Get serious as hell about calories and nutrients. And youll get results.
Just using stronger drugs isn't going to transform you.
You'll definitely have more fun on the stronger stuff, but more sides on the stronger stuff.
Just a thought.
 
In my opinion, just from looking at your pictures, I would first worry about your diet and training. Don't worry about what drugs to use. You need to build a foundation with your diet and training before thinking about what Cycles you want to use
 
I appreciate the sentiment, I got way out of shape, for certain, but several years back I was totally in shape. I had a tough time after a car accident and the last run got me back into the gym and without hurting myself, which was a problem. I've run heavy stuff in the past, so I'm not a total stranger to these things.

Regardless I'm not going to suggest I couldnt gain plenty without anything else but I have tremendous momentum right now and I want to keep it up. Stupid reason? Maybe, but from my perspective it's already been transformative. I'm well aware that these are drugs and I'm messing with serious stuff.

I hear your warning man, if it proves to be too much or takes me in a direction I don't like I'll drop it.
 
Cgkone said:
If you ran Epiandro and 4andro full blast and added 1andro you will feel good and get strong.
Run the Epiandro at 1000mg and 1and4 at 500 mg.
Get serious as hell about calories and nutrients. And youll get results.
Just using stronger drugs isn't going to transform you.
You'll definitely have more fun on the stronger stuff, but more sides on the stronger stuff.
Just a thought.
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No need to run 1 and 4 that high. Most people will get plenty of benefits from 330mg; any higher and youre approaching wasting $$ and may as well run something else more cost effective.
 
I disagree.
The 330mg is good for average weight 170-190
Bigger guys need a little more in my opinion.
As far as cost effective so many better options than dhea stuff.
To me running them higher was way better.
But I'm this dude's weight so I know from my personel experience. 330 mg of 1andro wasn't sh*%
 
If you need to run a compound at 75% over the effective dose:

1) you are expecting too much of the compound, and should maybe look into something stronger

or

2) the compound becomes cost prohibitive, and should maybe look into something stronger

Of course, "cost prohibitive" is a personal decision. If you want to spend the money running a compound at whatever dose you choose, thats obviously at your discretion.

As to the bodyweight deciding dose, not necessarily. I know guys at 250lbs who find 220mg plenty...and guys at 170lb who didnt get anything from 440mg. Go figure.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
If you need to run a compound at 75% over the effective dose:

1) you are expecting too much of the compound, and should maybe look into something stronger

or

2) the compound becomes cost prohibitive, and should maybe look into something stronger

Of course, "cost prohibitive" is a personal decision. If you want to spend the money running a compound at whatever dose you choose, thats obviously at your discretion.

As to the bodyweight deciding dose, not necessarily. I know guys at 250lbs who find 220mg plenty...and guys at 170lb who didnt get anything from 440mg. Go figure.
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True that.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
If you need to run a compound at 75% over the effective dose:

1) you are expecting too much of the compound, and should maybe look into something stronger

or

2) the compound becomes cost prohibitive, and should maybe look into something stronger

Of course, "cost prohibitive" is a personal decision. If you want to spend the money running a compound at whatever dose you choose, thats obviously at your discretion.

As to the bodyweight deciding dose, not necessarily. I know guys at 250lbs who find 220mg plenty...and guys at 170lb who didnt get anything from 440mg. Go figure.
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I know exactly what I want from 1andro.
Such a great product for no liver stress.
Extreme strength gains at 500 mg.
Epiandro even more so. 1000-1200 mg is prime
 
I'd take 12 weeks off (at least). Are you planning on doing blood work at least 8 weeks (or more) after last SERM dose? This would tell you where you stand. If you get them at 6 weeks, there's a chance your T will still be a bit artificially inflated.

Edit: Fricken mobile, I quoted Woody by accident.
 
Cgkone said:
I know exactly what I want from 1andro.
Such a great product for no liver stress.
Extreme strength gains at 500 mg.
Epiandro even more so. 1000-1200 mg is prime
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Youre in a somewhat enviable position of having found a compound you get satisfactory results from, at a cost ($ and sides) you also find acceptable.

I was initially reacting to the idea that anyone new to these compounds might see your particular dosing sweet spot as some sort of target/indicator for themselves.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Youre in a somewhat enviable position of having found a compound you get satisfactory results from, at a cost ($ and sides) you also find acceptable.

I was initially reacting to the idea that anyone new to these compounds might see your particular dosing sweet spot as some sort of target/indicator for themselves.
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1 andro aside do you agree with 330mg Epiandro being silly at best?
 
Cgkone said:
1 andro aside do you agree with 330mg Epiandro being silly at best?
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Oh yeah of course. Sorry, in talking generalities I kinda let epiandro get lost in the noise.

750-1000mg is typically ideal. But, BUT, some guys will need to keep their epiandro dose to 500mg in order to avoid certain sides and still reap some benefit. Depends what youre really wanting from it.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Oh yeah of course. Sorry, in talking generalities I kinda let epiandro get lost in the noise.

750-1000mg is typically ideal. But, BUT, some guys will need to keep their epiandro dose to 500mg in order to avoid certain sides and still reap some benefit. Depends what youre really wanting from it.
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There was a dramatic difference in my hair shedding and prostate sides between 500 and 750mg. Interestingly though, 100mg of methyl DHT caused no sides... too bad The1 was dc'd
 
jmyers said:
I wouldn't add exemestane until sides show. That low dose of Trest should he fine with just armicare pro. Other than that cycle looks good. Crush it.
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I would absolutely not do this. Trest is methyl estrogen. Not as easy to handle as regular estrogen.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
I'd take 12 weeks off (at least). Are you planning on doing blood work at least 8 weeks (or more) after last SERM dose? This would tell you where you stand. If you get them at 6 weeks, there's a chance your T will still be a bit artificially inflated.

Edit: Fricken mobile, I quoted Woody by accident.
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Yeah actually was going to get bloods done right at the 6 week as a "sanity test" before starting this next run. I must have misread the suggested length, I thought a month or so after the last SERM does was OK for a baseline number. Waiting another 2 weeks won't kill me, it's probably better anyways just on the basis I'll have switched off of night shifts by then so I might have some extra time to train as well. I'll post numbers when I get them.
 
Woody said:
I would absolutely not do this. Trest is methyl estrogen. Not as easy to handle as regular estrogen.
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I was even thinking i might preload some of the supports, even the exemestane by a few days juuuust to be sure. Trest is like...a beast from my understanding, don't want to develop sides first. I think the dose you suggested of ~6mg will be where I start. No offense to anyone, I appreciate all the suggestions. It's good to have a technical checkup on these things.
 
Also I'm going up map out my current diet and see how my macros shape up. I have a feeling I'm already doing OK but without doing real serious measurements of each cal I'm sure i can improve somewhere. I have two months (maybe more) before I start so plenty of time to adjust food and beverage intake. I'm still losing fat with whatever I'm doing (so something is right!)
 
OK I went all over the internet and found that everyone gives numbers that have a massive deviation. That makes me scratch my head. So I think I've come to a consensus on the first numbers - the TDEE / BMR, but the second set, the Macro suggestions, are freakin all over the place:

BMR/TDEE
Your BMR Is: 1611 or 2239
Your TDEE Is: 1934 or 2687

Your Maintenance Calories: 2,111 calories per day
Your Cutting Calories: 1,611 calories per day
-or-
Your Maintenance Calories: 2,687 calories per day
Your Cutting Calories: 2,187 calories per day

Macro Suggestions
One Suggestion was a 40/40/20 split on nutrients:
219g protein 97g fats 109g carbs

Another Suggestion was toootaly different:
PROTEIN: 192 G PER DAY.
FATS: 43 G PER DAY.
CARBS: 192 G PER DAY.

And the last suggestion I found was:
Carbs Protein Fat Calories
Grams per Day 63.7 265 92.8 2150
Grams per Meal 21.2 88.3 30.9 717

After that every other site agree'd with one, or the other, exactly - so the same formulas are being used.
What I can say is that I know, just off the top of my head, that I'm currently losing weight, but I'm not
eating only 1600 calories a day, that's farcical compared to the rough 2300 I think I'm getting (I have to find
all the labels of my food and add it up). So I'm kinda leaning towards the second "Maintenance / Cutting" calorie
numbers as being more accurate for me. I'm guessing the disparity in numbers has a lot to do with how much exercise
I'm getting a week.

So what does everyone think about the Macro suggestions though? I don't know how to equate that all of them mean "fat loss" which is the very general box you get on most of these. They're real different.

This is why I just cook decent food, try to lean heavy on chicken and lentil/bean type vegetable dishes and just no soda, no sugar added to anything, no beer, and workout really hard. Too much difference for me to feel like I'm doing the right thing, I'm open to using a system like this instead of just using a kitchen scale, but hopefully someone can help me out on how to interpret this
 
At 250 lbs body weight multiply that by 13 and that should be a good gauge of maintenance calories, So 3,250 cals. give or take 10%.If you train hard and eat only 2,300 cals. daily should lose 5--6 lbs a month easy.
 
Wow, that sounds way easier my man, but where does that x13 come in? What method is that? Seriously though I'm pretty curious about this.

Also I computed everything and I'm currently eating around 2200, with some fluctuation, but that's the average.
 
My guess is he's taking it from your BW multiplied by your ideal BF%. One of our "head trainers" used this tool. Maybe I'm tripping and way off base. Who knows
 
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