Epicatechin??? Still good or considered bunk now

ma70 said:
Guys, some of you can save yourselves the stress and just think the following to yourself:

"I've taken epicatechin and it worked for me, and that's all that matters"

You don't need to convince everyone else.
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Touché. I personally don't care whether or not people believe it works. However, I do not like people forcefully shoving their beliefs on the efficiency of a product down everyone's throats and then acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum when people don't have the same opinion.

People come here for advice and help. Not to be bullied or berated for sharing their opinion and/or having a different opinion than someone else.
 
Woody said:
Touché. I personally don't care whether or not people believe it works. However, I do not like people forcefully shoving their beliefs on the efficiency of a product down everyone's throats and then acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum when people don't have the same opinion.

People come here for advice and help. Not to be bullied or berated for sharing their opinion and/or having a different opinion than someone else.
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lol...send me a pm if you want to continue this!!!!
 
Woody said:
Doesn't everyone alter their diet in connection with their supplementation? Most people take ABE in a bulk. So does that mean ABE doesn't work and their getting size and strength bc of the caloric surplus? Seems like a silly contention to make.
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Absolutely not. Not silly at all. It's silly to say it was the supplement when you changed your entire diet and training routine. If you want to properly evaluate a supplement, you can't change all the other variables.....You'd have to keep everything else the same. This is why when "they" do studies everyone has the same diet and training routine. At least they should anyway, otherwise the results aren't clear. How could they be?. The more variables that are the same the better. Age should be the same, training should be the same, diet should be the same, they should have the same experience(years training)......There should only be one clear difference and that would be the supplement or the drug. If "they" tested a drug or a supplement on un-trained individuals for example that wouldn't give clear results, because any amount of training is going to lead to some amount of stress, recovery and adaption...Especially in an un-trained individual.

Ok I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but you understand what I'm trying to say?
 
pfresh said:
That's a really good point Danes. Ive been loving laxacrine as of late after going from a cut on strength laxogenin to bps laxacrine on a recomp. So my calories have almost increased by a 900 a day. I have also increased the amount of cardio i do and gone from a full body to an upper/lower split. Weight is holding steady fat seems to be coming off. I am praising the laxacrine but it could be the cardio/diet which is the heaviest hitter. I am very vascular but this could be because i am at a lower body fat percentage. I can't say for sure because i have never been this lean before.
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Good point and it seems like you understand my points :)

I will tell you something..

About 6 years ago, prior to ecdysteroid use, I changed diet (increased protein pretty much). I was on high protein diet 4 months . When I felt my body didnt respond to it like i did first months , I added high dose of ecdysteroids. Believe me or not, 3 months later (without changing diet or workout routine)my size and strength was increased, after about 3 weeks on ecdysteroids the musclefullness was amazing.work capacity, endurance and again, not to mention size and strength I got after those 3 months.
Even if I didnt added ecdy, my gains would be there . But supplementation with ecdy really accelerated my gains..

If I added ecdysteroids from the beginning of the diet, I would automaticaly think ecdy was working. (Could not know how much I gained just on the diet).I mean new products (one you never have tried before) should be added when your body knows how it react on diet and workout.
 
T-Bone said:
Absolutely not. Not silly at all. It's silly to say it was the supplement when you changed your entire diet and training routine. If you want to properly evaluate a supplement, you can't change all the other variables.....You'd have to keep everything else the same. This is why when "they" do studies everyone has the same diet and training routine. At least they should anyway, otherwise the results aren't clear. How could they be?. The more variables that are the same the better. Age should be the same, training should be the same, diet should be the same, they should have the same experience(years training)......There should only be one clear difference and that would be the supplement or the drug. If "they" tested a drug or a supplement on un-trained individuals for example that wouldn't give clear results, because any amount of training is going to lead to some amount of stress, recovery and adaption...Especially in an un-trained individual.

Ok I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but you understand what I'm trying to say?
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Oh, I completely agree with that. And I understand the point you are making and Danes was as well. However, assume you take ABE in a surplus and, based on the arguments in this thread, one could attribute any strength and size gain to the additional surplus and not the supplement.

In hindsight, my point was poorly worded.
 
Woody said:
Touché. I personally don't care whether or not people believe it works. However, I do not like people forcefully shoving their beliefs on the efficiency of a product down everyone's throats and then acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum when people don't have the same opinion.

People come here for advice and help. Not to be bullied or berated for sharing their opinion and/or having a different opinion than someone else.
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Doesn't that go both ways though?. We should be able to have a non-confrontational discussion about things while having differing opinions on different products. I don't see anyone being berated or bullied here.
 
T-Bone said:
Absolutely not. Not silly at all. It's silly to say it was the supplement when you changed your entire diet and training routine. If you want to properly evaluate a supplement, you can't change all the other variables.....You'd have to keep everything else the same. This is why when "they" do studies everyone has the same diet and training routine. At least they should anyway, otherwise the results aren't clear. How could they be?. The more variables that are the same the better. Age should be the same, training should be the same, diet should be the same, they should have the same experience(years training)......There should only be one clear difference and that would be the supplement or the drug. If "they" tested a drug or a supplement on un-trained individuals for example that wouldn't give clear results, because any amount of training is going to lead to some amount of stress, recovery and adaption...Especially in an un-trained individual.

Ok I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but you understand what I'm trying to say?
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Very well said and thats what I am trying to say. It is just wrong if you change your workout routine and adding 1000kcal extra to your diet and saying wow this new supp worked very good on me.
So if I say (no that will not happen). The user who gained 10lbs just due to calorie surplus would ofcourse say "hey I am not lying".and he is actually not lying.but that person NEVER know if that product helped at all.
 
Danes said:
Very well said and thats what I am trying to say. It is just wrong if you change your workout routine and adding 1000kcal extra to your diet and saying wow this new supp worked very good on me.
So if I say (no that will not happen). The user who gained 10lbs just due to calorie surplus would ofcourse say "hey I am not lying".and he is actually not lying.but that person NEVER know if that product helped at all.
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Yes and some people will say, of course you have to increase calories to gain if you are trying to gain using a certain product. However, what I'm saying is you should already be gaining at a certain rate already before you add in supplementation or drugs. You don't add the drug or supplement to get over a sticking point, because that way you would be using the drug and/or supplement as a crutch. First you establish a baseline in diet and training and if you are stuck, you get over that first....Then if the drugs and/or supplements are used properly you add them at that point and you speed up your gains and recovery. You don't use them as a crutch from a dead stop in recovery and gains.
 
Woody said:
Oh, I completely agree with that. And I understand the point you are making and Danes was as well. However, assume you take ABE in a surplus and, based on the arguments in this thread, one could attribute any strength and size gain to the additional surplus and not the supplement.

In hindsight, my point was poorly worded.
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I do understand what you mean..
Lets say Magnitropin (which is prefered on bulk). Gentiana Lutea found in Magnitropin is a potent and proven appetite booster. It is prefered on bulk because the strong appetite increase is to much if being on cut.

Me and many other increased weight just after couple of weeks with PA. But it has nothing to do with mTOR signaling activation. It was due to glycogen retention.

It is very important to know what EXACTLY one product does. And no matter what product you use , Increasing calories will lead to increased weight.

There is just few compounds that changed my body without changing the diet and workout routine. And when it works without changing workout routine and diet, then imagine how good it works if you change diet etc :)
 
Gotta say I enjoy T-bone's posts. I used to be the dummy that changed his diet/training for every supplement he took in hoping to amplify the effects of it, but now, I just stick to the same old strength routine/IF style diet I do and just add supplements in. Once I find out the supplement helps me, I then re-use it in the future for the intended purpose (bulking/cutting/whatever)
 
T-Bone said:
Absolutely not. Not silly at all. It's silly to say it was the supplement when you changed your entire diet and training routine. If you want to properly evaluate a supplement, you can't change all the other variables.....You'd have to keep everything else the same. This is why when "they" do studies everyone has the same diet and training routine. At least they should anyway, otherwise the results aren't clear. How could they be?. The more variables that are the same the better. Age should be the same, training should be the same, diet should be the same, they should have the same experience(years training)......There should only be one clear difference and that would be the supplement or the drug. If "they" tested a drug or a supplement on un-trained individuals for example that wouldn't give clear results, because any amount of training is going to lead to some amount of stress, recovery and adaption...Especially in an un-trained individual.

Ok I feel like I'm repeating myself now, but you understand what I'm trying to say?
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Exactly. It's like troubleshooting 101, you can't change multiple variables at once.
 
ma70 said:
Gotta say I enjoy T-bone's posts. I used to be the dummy that changed his diet/training for every supplement he took in hoping to amplify the effects of it, but now, I just stick to the same old strength routine/IF style diet I do and just add supplements in. Once I find out the supplement helps me, I then re-use it in the future for the intended purpose (bulking/cutting/whatever)
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T-Bone is totaly right and this kind of Strategy , I have used many years. Its many years ago I changed workout/diet plan when I started with new supp.
 
I am going to argue the converse and state that it would make little sense to not change routine when circumstances encourage it (cutting to bulking, less work and stress etc.) just for testing a new supplement. Now we have 3 sides to the discussion :D
 
Woody said:
Touché. I personally don't care whether or not people believe it works. However, I do not like people forcefully shoving their beliefs on the efficiency of a product down everyone's throats and then acting like a child and throwing a temper tantrum when people don't have the same opinion.

People come here for advice and help. Not to be bullied or berated for sharing their opinion and/or having a different opinion than someone else.
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I just state the current science/research on a compound - not shoving any beliefs. The only research I'm aware of, after I lost interest, was 1 study in elderly men that showed an increase in the ratio of Follistatin to Myostatin without giving any numbers, along with a small increase in grip strength... and a study that measured blood plasma levels over time, for various oral amounts. Do you have any research data on Strength, Endurance, Muscle Fullness in resistance trained males? Because I have no problem saying I was wrong when new information comes to light.

Danes

Your comments on people lying about supplements was spot on. There are many studies on "Buyer's Remorse". Not many people will admit that they spent money on garbage, whether it's a car or a bottle of pills - it's a psychological thing with humans.
 
The_Old_Guy 1 study in elderly men that showed an increase in the ratio of Follistatin to Myostatin without giving any numbers, along with a small increase in grip strength

And If I remember right, there was no placebo group . Walid study is double blind placebo controlled study
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Danes

Your comments on people lying about supplements was spot on. There are many studies on "Buyer's Remorse". Not many people will admit that they spent money on garbage, whether it's a car or a bottle of pills - it's a psychological thing with humans.
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This reminds me of the Ubervita Amazon scam. PricePlow had a link. Essentially, in a 3 day period Ubervita had hundreds of reviews from people. These people had never reviewed products before and/or the majority of their reviews were for Ubervita products. Apparently, a few dropped a nugget of wisdom that they were getting free products for positive reviews.

Still, I think Amazon reviews are a bit different than AM reviews. And, this could also go the opposite way. Meaning, Company X has a crappy product A, you should try Company Y's product A. It's so much better. And company X and Y are direct competitors with reviewer never trying X's A.
 
Woody said:
This reminds me of the Ubervita Amazon scam. PricePlow had a link. Essentially, in a 3 day period Ubervita had hundreds of reviews from people. These people had never reviewed products before and/or the majority of their reviews were for Ubervita products. Apparently, a few dropped a nugget of wisdom that they were getting free products for positive reviews.

Still, I think Amazon reviews are a bit different than AM reviews. And, this could also go the opposite way. Meaning, Company X has a crappy product A, you should try Company Y's product A. It's so much better. And company X and Y are direct competitors with reviewer never trying X's A.
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amazon reviews are different than AM reviews because you can pm the reviewer and ask him[or her] if they would recommend that product to you, personally. over time new stuff comes out, and they might have something else they would recommend. as for myself and my knocking of epi products, over the last 10 years I have tried and reviewed too many products to count, and I have never been as disappointed as I was with epi. you might say that I am wrong because so many others are seeing good results, but out of the thousands of products/ingredients I have tried none have disappointed me as much as epi. true this is just my opinion, but my opinion is based on a lot of experience.
 
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