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Epicatechin??? Still good or considered bunk now

kisaj said:
That is because it does help with strength, size, and recomp. The few that don't understand that endurance and strength are not exclusive of one another are generally the ones nay saying the loudest. Epi is wonderful for increased endurance and work capacity, which in turn can and usually does lead to increase in strength because of the ability to train in working sets longer. Obviously there is a balance because you don't want to continually work for endurance without suffering impact to strength, but there is definite benefit.
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Yeah over the course of a year the endurance benefits from this could lead to strength gains. Will it lead to strength gains over the course off the 8 week cycles? I seriously doubt it.

I have never taken epi but for those who have, how much did it really increase your endurance? 1 rep maybe two here and there? And can you attribute that to the epi or just having a good day? Becuase my reps can go up or down 20lbs from one week to the next just from having a good or bad day in the gym. I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not saying epi is worthless, and I have never ran it so who knows. But to me it seems like it has some marginal benefits in health and performance at best. In that case there are better and cheaper options for both performance and health.

And like I said a lot of the flack comes from the fact that people initially reported and claimed strength increases in PRs two weeks into it and myostatin inhibition etc
 
ucheoma said:
I think time will be the ultimate judge on this. The supplement world is one of the most faddish. Creatine and protein aside few supps have stood the test of time. If its merely placebo chances are by this time next yr it will be a bit of fun to bump this thread. I will definitely be bumping it. Ive got a long memory!
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maybe your memory is on epi
 
Woody said:
Aren't there legit health benefits to Epi?

So, if a product gives good strength gains and LBM, but is hell on hormones and organs. YAY WOOHOO LETS SNORT IT!!!!!

But if a product may or may not provide strength benefits but provides real health benefits. BOO GARBAGE GTFO POSER.

Interesting.
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No one is saying EPI is crap and totaly waste.epicatechin is very healthy and like I said, i recommend it to all (for health properties) But the way it is advertised, it is just wrong. Claiming to be best natural anabolic supp +++. It is just wrong and we need to be realistic.
Does it increase N.O ? yes it does. It can help with endurance and work capacity (both can help you with Strength And size) how? Increased endurance and work capacity can help you push harder. (Which can lead to more strength and size). But if people believe EPI is anabolic (due to myostatin inhibition etc) then its fine.
I know the answer and the answer is NO.
 
CATdiesel76 said:
Yeah over the course of a year the endurance benefits from this could lead to strength gains. Will it lead to strength gains over the course off the 8 week cycles? I seriously doubt it.

I have never taken epi but for those who have, how much did it really increase your endurance? 1 rep maybe two here and there? And can you attribute that to the epi or just having a good day? Becuase my reps can go up or down 20lbs from one week to the next just from having a good or bad day in the gym. I'm genuinely curious.

I'm not saying epi is worthless, and I have never ran it so who knows. But to me it seems like it has some marginal benefits in health and performance at best. In that case there are better and cheaper options for both performance and health.

And like I said a lot of the flack comes from the fact that people initially reported and claimed strength increases in PRs two weeks into it and myostatin inhibition etc
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I have run it and tested it on my friends.
No one of my friends (not me either) got those sick strength gains like some are reporting. Nothing special at all.

I personaly liked Endurance and pumps on Epicatechin (dosed very high). BUT it would be lie if I said it was best I have tried

I have seen people crushing PRs with just vitamin pills (even gaining size too. Because they changed diet and workout routine).
 
ELROCK said:
What are the so called better (natty) alternatives for endurance?
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Bump on this question. Danes
Your statement says you know of better alternatives (you added an s so that means more than one) for endurance over -epi. I have tied tons of ingredients/products, but -epi remains at the top. So, I am definitely interested in your thoughts.
 
ELROCK said:
Bump on this question. Danes
Your statement says you know of better alternatives (you added an s so that means more than one) for endurance over -epi. I have tied tons of ingredients/products, but -epi remains at the top. So, I am definitely interested in your thoughts.
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I am sorry, didnt saw this question.
Can you write down here or send me PM about those ingredients you tried for endurance?
 
Danes said:
No one is saying EPI is crap and totaly waste.epicatechin is very healthy and like I said, i recommend it to all (for health properties) But the way it is advertised, it is just wrong. Claiming to be best natural anabolic supp +++. It is just wrong and we need to be realistic.
Does it increase N.O ? yes it does. It can help with endurance and work capacity (both can help you with Strength And size) how? Increased endurance and work capacity can help you push harder. (Which can lead to more strength and size). But if people believe EPI is anabolic (due to myostatin inhibition etc) then its fine.
I know the answer and the answer is NO.
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SNS sells epi now and guess what?. I still don't get anything out of it!. Supposedly it's great for health though and I was taking it a while for that but I'd just rather use something else. I've used a bunch of other company versions also and they also didn't produce any noticeable results in the gym. Actually I do notice one thing when I use, increased aches and pains. Not from working out harder, but it seems to worsen my arthritis, and I've also recently had a bout with patella tendinitis....Took forever to clear and it seems to have almost completely gone away right within the same time of me actually stopping the -epi. So it seems like it might actually be detrimental to me. Because of stopping it my aches and pains and arthritis symptoms have significantly lessened and in turn my strength has gone up.
 
ELROCK said:
Bump on this question. Danes
Your statement says you know of better alternatives (you added an s so that means more than one) for endurance over -epi. I have tied tons of ingredients/products, but -epi remains at the top. So, I am definitely interested in your thoughts.
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Beta Alanine and Cordyceps come to mind immediately, to say nothing of stims like caffeine that can increase the pain threshold
 
T-Bone said:
SNS sells epi now and guess what?. I still don't get anything out of it!. Supposedly it's great for health though and I was taking it a while for that but I'd just rather use something else. I've used a bunch of other company versions also and they also didn't produce any noticeable results in the gym. Actually I do notice one thing when I use, increased aches and pains. Not from working out harder, but it seems to worsen my arthritis, and I've also recently had a bout with patella tendinitis....Took forever to clear and it seems to have almost completely gone away right within the same time of me actually stopping the -epi. So it seems like it might actually be detrimental to me. Because of stopping it my aches and pains and arthritis symptoms have significantly lessened and in turn my strength has gone up.
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And do you know what, If all people was honest like you, there would be MANY who feel the same about epicatechin (they did not get much from it).

On this forum and another forum where some guys was raving about epi (sick strength increase +++).
After a while, I asked some of them if they could be honest. Why all this hype?

-Couple of them said its due to free supps they get from reps.
-some of them have not tried it Solo but was running with Creatine, ABE, PA and many other products
-some of them said they changed workout routine and diet. (Was eating more and pushing in the gym more). I asked why they did that? Answer was: since its myostatin inhibitor, they wanted most out of it.
-some of them actually lied about their experience with epi. I asked why. It was because they really thought it was a good supp and they wanted to support it . They have seen this hype everywhere so they thought it needed to be good stuff.
 
I like -epi, and if it ever gets to the price of betaine anhydrous I will run it year round, as I do that. But I don't like it enough to warrant $45/month.
 
Danes said:
And do you know what, If all people was honest like you, there would be MANY who feel the same about epicatechin (they did not get much from it).

On this forum and another forum where some guys was raving about epi (sick strength increase +++).
After a while, I asked some of them if they could be honest. Why all this hype?

-Couple of them said its due to free supps they get from reps.
-some of them have not tried it Solo but was running with Creatine, ABE, PA and many other products
-some of them said they changed workout routine and diet. (Was eating more and pushing in the gym more). I asked why they did that? Answer was: since its myostatin inhibitor, they wanted most out of it.
-some of them actually lied about their experience with epi. I asked why. It was because they really thought it was a good supp and they wanted to support it . They have seen this hype everywhere so they thought it needed to be good stuff.
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It's good that all those people look to you for confession. You must be a hell of a guy! :)
 
creatine
cordyceps
agmatine
citrulline
caffeine
ephedra
longjack
cop

a combination of those ingredients listed does way more, I mean way more for my endurance and strength than epi did. and if bought in bulk you could probably include most of those listed for same price as overpriced epi....geez I can't believe the way you guys hype this stuff, get real!!!!
 
ucheoma said:
I think time will be the ultimate judge on this. The supplement world is one of the most faddish. Creatine and protein aside few supps have stood the test of time. If its merely placebo chances are by this time next yr it will be a bit of fun to bump this thread. I will definitely be bumping it. Ive got a long memory!
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arginine and tribulus were all the rage when I joined this forum....since then I have seen at least 20 flavor's of the month come and go, I predict that 2 years from now epi will be:
1. rarely mentioned
2. if still around, vastly cheaper than it is now...this stuff is way overpriced!!!!
3. in 3 years it will be about as highly regarded as milli vanilli
 
I didn't realize people talking about their experiences now is viewed as hype. I guess this whole forum is hype.
 
thebigt said:
creatine
cordyceps
agmatine
citrulline
caffeine
ephedra
longjack
cop

a combination of those ingredients listed does way more, I mean way more for my endurance and strength than epi did. and if bought in bulk you could probably include most of those listed for same price as overpriced epi....geez I can't believe the way you guys hype this stuff, get real!!!!
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I have used every one (except ephedra)on that list and find -epi to be superior for endurance.

I like many on that list though.
 
ELROCK said:
Yeah, but not recently. I have used two different PWO supps with nitrates in it. I didn't notice significantly increased endurance from either one. I did notice solid pumps though.
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Try a combo of nitrates and Citrulline
 
ELROCK said:
I have used every one (except ephedra)on that list and find -epi to be superior for endurance.

I like many on that list though.
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look at the new conqu3r unleashed...many are reporting improved endurance on just the 1st dose....

for you new guys I recommend a product like conqu3r unleashed or similar pre workouts that contain several ingredients for energy/endurance over a overpriced epi product-way more bang for your buck!!!!
 
thebigt said:
look at the new conqu3r unleashed...many are reporting improved endurance on just the 1st dose....

for you new guys I recommend a product like conqu3r unleashed or similar pre workouts that contain several ingredients for energy/endurance over a overpriced epi product-way more bang for your buck!!!!
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Oh I know I will be ordering it shortly!!! It has a very promising profile. And I thought the previous version was on the top 3 for the pwo category and supposedly this one is better.
 
ELROCK said:
Oh I know I will be ordering it shortly!!! It has a very promising profile. And I thought the previous version was on the top 3 for the pwo category and supposedly this one is better.
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better than epi, lol?????????????????????????????????????????????

hell yes, in every way, imo!!!

much better to recommend something like this to impressionable new guys that might buy into the epi hype, imo!!!!
 
thebigt said:
better than epi, lol?????????????????????????????????????????????

hell yes, in every way, imo!!!

much better to recommend something like this to impressionable new guys that might buy into the epi hype, imo!!!!
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LoL
OL Conqu3r + -epi > OL Conqu3r solo
 
Danes is there a possibly that genetics can play a key role on how the epicatchen effects each individual? I know for it to be fact there need to be blood tests and stuff but I'm just curious if its a possibly.
 
thebigt said:
choose!!!!

which is better value for the money spent?


I bet it aint epi, lol
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Are we still talking about endurance? If so then yes I still choose epi.

If I am dragging ass and want some motivation/focus to hit the weights then my choice would be the Conqu3r.

But, these statements are not pertaining to the new Unleashed Conqu3r. Things could change when I get my hands on the new version.
 
ELROCK said:
Are we still talking about endurance? If so then yes I still choose epi.

If I am dragging ass and want some motivation/focus to hit the weights then my choice would be the Conqu3r.

But, these statements are not pertaining to the new Unleashed Conqu3r. Things could change when I get my hands on the new version.
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are you running on the democratic or republican ticket, talk about non-committal lol!!!!
 
thebigt said:
are you running on the democratic or republican ticket, talk about non-committal lol!!!!
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Well we were just talking about endurance and epi wins in that department so there is the answer to that.

Conqu3r wins in other aspects like price, motivation, focus and pumps.
 
CJNator said:
Danes is there a possibly that genetics can play a key role on how the epicatchen effects each individual? I know for it to be fact there need to be blood tests and stuff but I'm just curious if its a possibly.
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all kind of supplements/drugs/medicines ++ works more on some, less on some other. Everything from supps, painkillers to all kind of stuff. BUT like I use to say, if one compound IS effective and the "normal" dose didnt work very well, adding higher dose or manipulating enzymes (such as CYP3A4++ ) SHOULD work even on those who didnt felt any effect from "normal/average" dose.

I have been without supplementa for a while. Why? Because I have changed diet and workout routine. So it would be totaly wrong trying new products right now .
Lately, the new diet and workout routine have actually increased my size AND strength. If I have added some new products, it would be to easy to say "wooow this stuff works".When my body get "used" to this routine, it will be the perfect time to add some good supplements .

Lets say your diet / workout routine is good and after 5 months you feel and see the adaption.the body is not reacting to it as it did at the beginning . If you added a product which REALLY works, it WOULD work! I bet, if you added the good dose of PA (as example) , it would boost your strength, musclefullness and even size!
 
ELROCK said:
Well we were just talking about endurance and epi wins in that department so there is the answer to that.

Conqu3r wins in other aspects like price, motivation, focus and pumps.
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have you seen the reviews, endurance is one of the main things being reported on the new conqu3r-and this is from just 1 sample serving.....plus you get motivation, focus, pumps, energy all for a cheaper price....looks like a no-brainer to me, lol!!!!
 
Danes said:
all kind of supplements/drugs/medicines ++ works more on some, less on some other. Everything from supps, painkillers to all kind of stuff. BUT like I use to say, if one compound IS effective and the "normal" dose didnt work very well, adding higher dose or manipulating enzymes (such as CYP3A4++ ) SHOULD work even on those who didnt felt any effect from "normal/average" dose.

I have been without supplementa for a while. Why? Because I have changed diet and workout routine. So it would be totaly wrong trying new products right now .
Lately, the new diet and workout routine have actually increased my size AND strength. If I have added some new products, it would be to easy to say "wooow this stuff works".When my body get "used" to this routine, it will be the perfect time to add some good supplements .

Lets say your diet / workout routine is good and after 5 months you feel and see the adaption.the body is not reacting to it as it did at the beginning . If you added a product which REALLY works, it WOULD work! I bet, if you added the good dose of PA (as example) , it would boost your strength, musclefullness and even size!
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That's a really good point Danes. Ive been loving laxacrine as of late after going from a cut on strength laxogenin to bps laxacrine on a recomp. So my calories have almost increased by a 900 a day. I have also increased the amount of cardio i do and gone from a full body to an upper/lower split. Weight is holding steady fat seems to be coming off. I am praising the laxacrine but it could be the cardio/diet which is the heaviest hitter. I am very vascular but this could be because i am at a lower body fat percentage. I can't say for sure because i have never been this lean before.
 
Danes said:
all kind of supplements/drugs/medicines ++ works more on some, less on some other. Everything from supps, painkillers to all kind of stuff. BUT like I use to say, if one compound IS effective and the "normal" dose didnt work very well, adding higher dose or manipulating enzymes (such as CYP3A4++ ) SHOULD work even on those who didnt felt any effect from "normal/average" dose.

I have been without supplementa for a while. Why? Because I have changed diet and workout routine. So it would be totaly wrong trying new products right now .
Lately, the new diet and workout routine have actually increased my size AND strength. If I have added some new products, it would be to easy to say "wooow this stuff works".When my body get "used" to this routine, it will be the perfect time to add some good supplements .

Lets say your diet / workout routine is good and after 5 months you feel and see the adaption.the body is not reacting to it as it did at the beginning . If you added a product which REALLY works, it WOULD work! I bet, if you added the good dose of PA (as example) , it would boost your strength, musclefullness and even size!
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That is understandable and a good point. Thats something I'll think about next time I try something out and switch up my routine/diet.
 
thebigt said:
have you seen the reviews, endurance is one of the main things being reported on the new conqu3r-and this is from just 1 sample serving.....plus you get motivation, focus, pumps, energy all for a cheaper price....looks like a no-brainer to me, lol!!!!
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Didn't you advocate to that essentially
everything from China sucks in a different thread?
It seems that you have very strong opinions and won't listen to anyone's view if it differs from yours. You are set in your ways and your beliefs are the only ones that are right. The political comment you made a few posts up is rather ironic.
 
Doesn't everyone alter their diet in connection with their supplementation? Most people take ABE in a bulk. So does that mean ABE doesn't work and their getting size and strength bc of the caloric surplus? Seems like a silly contention to make.
 
Woody said:
Didn't you advocate to that essentially
everything from China sucks in a different thread?
It seems that you have very strong opinions and won't listen to anyone's view if it differs from yours. You are set in your ways and your beliefs are the only ones that are right. The political comment you made a few posts up is rather ironic.
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you seem to have a WOODY for me...sorry chum, I aint gay.
 
Woody said:
Doesn't everyone alter their diet in connection with their supplementation? Most people take ABE in a bulk. So does that mean ABE doesn't work and their getting size and strength bc of the caloric surplus? Seems like a silly contention to make.
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I think he mean its best to keep eat and lifting consistent so once someone adds a supplement they can say "well I was gaining 1 lb a week before adding ABE but went I added it I was adding 1.5 a week" or "I was still gaining 1lb a week but leaning out".
 
Guys, some of you can save yourselves the stress and just think the following to yourself:

"I've taken epicatechin and it worked for me, and that's all that matters"

You don't need to convince everyone else.
 
ma70 said:
Guys, some of you can save yourselves the stress and just think the following to yourself:

"I've taken epicatechin and it worked for me, and that's all that matters"

You don't need to convince everyone else.
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Well some people like learning stuff, ignorant is a bliss but knowledge is power ;)
 
thebigt said:
have you seen the reviews, endurance is one of the main things being reported on the new conqu3r-and this is from just 1 sample serving.....plus you get motivation, focus, pumps, energy all for a cheaper price....looks like a no-brainer to me, lol!!!!
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I know and that's why I am excited to TRY it! But, I can't just go by what the reviews say so it isn't a no-brainer for me yet.
 
CJNator said:
I think he mean its best to keep eat and lifting consistent so once someone adds a supplement they can say "well I was gaining 1 lb a week before adding ABE but went I added it I was adding 1.5 a week" or "I was still gaining 1lb a week but leaning out".
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You really understood me and my point. I do understand it is not so easy due to my bad english :)
 
Danes said:
You really understood me and my point. I do understand it is not so easy due to my bad english :)
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your English is just fine...better than many for whom it is their native tongue!!!
 
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