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Epi/havoc only worth it?

Zariph

Active member
Hello

I see many different opinions on doing a 6 week mass building epi/havoc cycle. Some ppl say that you wont keep **** without adding test. Any1 who got experience with this ph?
 
I'm about to start 6 weeks of epi at 30mg ED (maybe 45 for weeks 5 and 6) and run 4-andro as a base at 220-330mg ED. Test would be better but I think 4-andro should suffice as a low/moderate test base.

I'll post a log.
 
Back in the day I used epistane solo for 6 weeks and loved it, kept probably 80% of my gains. But that cycle is probably advised against due to the lack of test base.

Edit: reread the OP (thought i read hdrol or epistane)
 
Your best option would be to run the Epistane as a 6 week kickstart to a 12+ week test E or C cycle. Or you could run it with test P for 6 weeks.

The next best option would be to run it with a combination of transdermal and oral trest.

Next after that would be to run it with 4-AD (if available) or 4-andro.

And, finally, you could run it solo. There's a good chance that lethargy and joint sides will be worse, as mentioned. Overall, your cycle should go a lot smoother with one of the other options.
 
mike33511 said:
Your best option would be to run the Epistane as a 6 week kickstart to a 12+ week test E or C cycle. Or you could run it with test P for 6 weeks.

The next best option would be to run it with a combination of transdermal and oral trest.

Next after that would be to run it with 4-AD (if available) or 4-andro.

And, finally, you could run it solo. There's a good chance that lethargy and joint sides will be worse, as mentioned. Overall, your cycle should go a lot smoother with one of the other options.
Click to expand...

Nailed it
 
Epistane is very mild I used dermacrine as a test base and was fine. It's good for a first time to get into PHs but it's not a great mass builder. I put on 12lbs in first 3 weeks and a pound in the last 2 and I went up to 60mg. Once I lost the glycogen and water bloat I ended up with about 5-6lbs of muscle. Would be great for cutting tho as it really dries you out you have to drink tons of water you get so thirsty.
 
thx for all the inputs! So how many lbls will the average guy gain and how much to keep`?

Btw Im also able to get Hdrol onyl reason I ask about havoc is because I thought it was superior for a first time bulking ph
 
Zariph said:
thx for all the inputs! So how many lbls will the average guy gain and how much to keep`?

Btw Im also able to get Hdrol onyl reason I ask about havoc is because I thought it was superior for a first time bulking ph
Click to expand...
Your diet determines that, if your not eating enough your not gonna gain weight
 
Zariph said:
thx for all the inputs! So how many lbls will the average guy gain and how much to keep`?

Btw Im also able to get Hdrol onyl reason I ask about havoc is because I thought it was superior for a first time bulking ph
Click to expand...

I kept all the actual muscle I built on it only thing I lost was the glycogen and water retention. I was eating like 3500 calories a day on it I'm not sure if that's the reason I bloated so much I actually thought I'd got fat at the time but you need to put away some serious food on cycle. If you're looking for the magic pill to turn you into arnie epi isn't it but it's a good first time PH as it's very mild on sides and you'll learn how your body reacts and how to properly run a PCT before you get into the more serious gainers like superdrol and DMZ.
 
Running test or not is irrelevant to keeping gains. The reason you loose weight on short cycles is cus it's not all muscle, bloat water glycogen ect. Also no 1 can gain 20 lbs of solid muscle in a few weeks. No if yo you blow up quick on something and continue making gains or maintain that weight over 12-16 weeks it's more likely muscle. I'm texting fast on my phone so I might have said something incorrect or the spelling police might show up so I'll double check later
 
Smont said:
Running test or not is irrelevant to keeping gains. The reason you loose weight on short cycles is cus it's not all muscle, bloat water glycogen ect. Also no 1 can gain 20 lbs of solid muscle in a few weeks. No if yo you blow up quick on something and continue making gains or maintain that weight over 12-16 weeks it's more likely muscle. I'm texting fast on my phone so I might have said something incorrect or the spelling police might show up so I'll double check later
Click to expand...

20lbs in a few weeks never mind stretch marks your skin would probably rip open. But people still believe that's possible lol
 
20lbs of muscle over 12 weeks is possible though, lets say you gain 15lbs on a kicker of Msten while running test and just continued test for the 8 weeks gaining another 10-15lbs you could keep 20 easy I recon, I mean I gained 4lbs in a deficit my last cycle, 8 weeks long epi/1T... if you're diet is there it's possible. 20lbs in 4 weeks would probably very messy mass though haha
 
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