Unanswered Ecdysterone-Anabolic effect of ecdysterone strong enough to put it on the doping list

WesleyInman

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About 5-6 years ago I was requested to beta test a product called MOST WANTED. It was Laxogenin and Ecdysterone. After a 60 day run I determined it was effective. My recovery was improved, and I had some aggression and gained about 3lbs of lean mass in 60days on a somewhat mediocre diet.


Everyone laughed.


Enter 2019....Guess this means I got the last laugh? I was right...


184173

Anabolic effect of ecdysterone strong enough to put it on the doping list

Ecdysterone, a steroid-like substance found in spinach, quinoa and bodybuilding supplements, has a stronger anabolic effect than scientists suspected. German biochemists have worked out how ecdysterone makes muscle fibres bigger and stronger – and they think that this natural steroid can help the elderly to maintain muscle strength. And that ecdysterone should perhaps be placed on the doping list.

Alpha and beta estrogen receptors
The female sex hormone estradiol attaches itself in cells to its estrogen receptor alpha and estrogen receptor beta. Via the alpha receptor estradiol stimulates the growth of the fatty layers on the hips and breasts, and aggression; via the beta receptor it keeps bones strong, maintains a healthy cholesterol balance and keeps the blood vessels supple – and muscle mass up to the mark.

The latter has been known more or less for sure since molecular scientists at the German Sport University in Cologne published an animal study in FASEB Journal, in which they gave castrated male a compound [Beta], which attaches itself specifically to the estrogen-beta-receptor. [FASEB J. 2012 May;26(5):1909-20.] The figure below shows the effect of injections of the substance on the Levator ani muscle.

TP = testosterone propionate; Flu = flutamide [a substance that blocks the effect of testosterone]; Intact = untreated, non-castrated rats; Orchi = untreated castrated rats.

The Japanese also observed that in rats with a normal intake of vitamin B5, their vitamin B5 levels decreased as a result of the combination of frequent physical exercise and a high fat diet. The effect was less pronounced however than what we've shown above.

Vitamin B5, the testosterone vitamin
"The requirement for pantothenic acid in rats is synergistically increased with the combination of exercise and a high-fat diet", the Japanese researchers wrote. "These results suggest that pantothenic acid intake should be increased in the presence of exercise or a high-fat diet, and especially when these conditions are combined. Intake of adequate pantothenic acid may prevent disorders characterized by a lack of pantothenic acid."

The figures on the right show what happened to rats' testosterone level when they were given food that contained no vitamin B5 [PaA]. [J Vet Med Sci. 2009 Nov;71(11):1427-32.] It decreases. This is probably because of something that happens in the testes, as the absence of vitamin B5 in the diet has no effect on the secretion of the messenger hormones LH and FSH.

The researchers suspect that the decline in the testosterone level that results from a vitamin B5 deficiency occurs because of a decrease in the biosynthesis of cholesterol in the testes. The testes make testosterone from cholesterol.

Wild speculation on our part
It may just be the case that some athletes on a low-carb (and thus fat-rich) diet can boost their testosterone levels by a teeny weeny bit by taking vitamin B5. This would certainly be the case for vegetarian or vegan athletes who get no cholesterol from their diet.

Source: J Vet Med Sci. 2009 Nov;71(11):1427-32.

http://www.anabolicsteroidforums.com...he-doping-list
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kisaj

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I think this has been known for some time, not sure why it always flew under the radar. From 2015:

"An anabolic activity of ecdysterone was clearly confirmed by our investigation. The anabolic potency of the ecdysterone was comparable or even higher as found for the anabolic androgenic steroids, SARMs or IGF-1. "

 

Jstrong20

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If it was that good I’d think it would be way more popular. Used it years ago and it was nothing. People that choose what goes on doping list isn’t good proof of anything. Like I said it’s been around forever so I’d it worked it would be way more popular. Hot stuff worked great when it came out to because it was spiked. Lol So did aspire and craze. Big surprise they also were spiked. I mean maybe you had better stuff but just pointing out possibility of spiked sups. Stuff that works seems to stay popular like creatine. Has been out for a long time and still people use it because it works.
 
Powercage

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If it was that good I’d think it would be way more popular. Used it years ago and it was nothing. People that choose what goes on doping list isn’t good proof of anything. Like I said it’s been around forever so I’d it worked it would be way more popular. Hot stuff worked great when it came out to because it was spiked. Lol So did aspire and craze. Big surprise they also were spiked. I mean maybe you had better stuff but just pointing out possibility of spiked sups. Stuff that works seems to stay popular like creatine. Has been out for a long time and still people use it because it works.
To be fair, they tested the participants in the recent study for AAS. Im not sure what method for testing they used off-hand.

Now realistically, people that want ecdy to succeed are treating this like the Jacob Wilson study on HMB, which we found out later was impossible to replicate. Companies that sold HMB used that study to sell as much as they could before more research came out. We later learned HMB (both FA and Ca) isnt any better than leucine alone. It is way too early to believe ecdy works based on the research. Replicability is important. We have studies in humans showing it does nothing, then we have this one study that shows a 10kg increase in bench on par with AAS? They can’t identify a mechanism how it would work or how it could even enter skeletal muscle in humans. We need more info.

Anyone who is objective should be highly skeptical without further research.
 
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WesleyInman

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Is guys is the quality. There’s alot of BS ecdysterone. Point is Iron Forged has the real deal and I called it. I’d never lie about a brand or compound and in my log and even since then Lax and Ecdysterone have been called a scam.

I could pull my log and tag everyone here and tell them to kiss my ass, but look I’m 41. People need to think outside the box and give “ANYTHING” a chance.

When I was competing in the 90’s, 90% of forums called Creatine a scam. You will die of kidney failure. Now look. It’s a staple. It’s used medically to treat depresssion.

I will be the one that calls these kids out 5 -10 - 20 years later and say I told you so. A closed mind, is an ignorant mind🤷🏼‍♂️
 
Powercage

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Is guys is the quality. There’s alot of BS ecdysterone. Point is Iron Forged has the real deal and I called it. I’d never lie about a brand or compound and in my log and even since then Lax and Ecdysterone have been called a scam.

I could pull my log and tag everyone here and tell them to kiss my ass, but look I’m 41. People need to think outside the box and give “ANYTHING” a chance.

When I was competing in the 90’s, 90% of forums called Creatine a scam. You will die of kidney failure. Now look. It’s a staple. It’s used medically to treat depresssion.

I will be the one that calls these kids out 5 -10 - 20 years later and say I told you so. A closed mind, is an ignorant mind🤷🏼‍♂️
Ive used Iron Forged. Never noticed anything personally, if it was AAS style gains as suggested by that study this would be impossible. Lax and ecdy are called a scam at this point in time because it doesnt seem to work in most people. And there is no likely mechanism (yet?).

It’s possible there is a problem with consistent sourcing, even within brands people claim work. Might be that the ecdy itself isnt doing anything, but something else in the raws. It’s possible it only works under certain conditions. It’s possible effects are much less significant than suggested. It’s possible there is placebo.

People still use “give it a chance” for free form BCAAs, even though we definitively know there isnt a reason to supplement with them (assuming even a modest protein intake). Literally everyone used to think they worked until controlled studies showed no effects. Placebo is very powerful.

The opposite of a closed-mind is a naive mind. Neither situation is helpful. You could be right, the breadth of research isn’t there yet to support that notion.
 
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HIT4ME

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I get what you are saying - ecdysterone has been around for a LONG time. Since at least 1990. It seems to come up in waives every 10 years give or take.

When I saw this study Ididn't dig into the study itself, just read the article and it seems like a veiled attempt to support supplement sales. I doubt this will make it onto the doping list. It is readily available in a lot of food sources...and granted supplementing could provide doses 10-100x what you would get from food, if eating spinach could result in some level that would provide a positive test, it will make testing difficult. Maybe I am being ignorant here, but it seems far fetched.

Now, as far as taking a supplement and seeing amazing results, I have no reason to disbelieve you or question your integrity. But really good results may make me think a supplement could have been spiked if those results aren't replicable with other brands. It isn't like Forged is getting the raws from some exclusove source that no one else can find, even if that is what they want to claim.

Having said that, I think a lot of things like ecdy can "work" - especially over long periods with proper expectations.
 
WesleyInman

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Good replies, ty for your input, and I respect what you guys are both saying.

Guess time will tell, but btw, I was only speaking about this product/compound in terms of "natural athletes". I hope I didn't confuse anyone thinking I am comparing these effects to that of AAS.
 
Powercage

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Good replies, ty for your input, and I respect what you guys are both saying.

Guess time will tell, but btw, I was only speaking about this product/compound in terms of "natural athletes". I hope I didn't confuse anyone thinking I am comparing these effects to that of AAS.
Nah, you weren’t insinuating that. The study at hand suggests gains on that scale, which is why Im skeptical.

I’m not saying it can’t work. I think it probably doesn’t, BUT with the new research it would be foolish to outright dismiss it without some follow-up studies. I think if it does work, we have been on the wrong track in some manner on trying to explain it or understanding what situations make it viable.

Hell, if we identify that it’s a sourcing issue and clean up the sourcing, even better for consumers.
 
nostrum420

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I wonder if it's an issue of poor oral bioavailability. In that case person A may get better results taking it on any empty stomach vs person B taking it with food or vice versa.
 
Powercage

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I wonder if it's an issue of poor oral bioavailability. In that case person A may get better results taking it on any empty stomach vs person B taking it with food or vice versa.
Oral availability is terrible for ecdy. Taking it on an empty stomach won't change the fact that it is massively water soluble and uptake into human cells is a very real challenge.
 
nostrum420

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Oral availability is terrible for ecdy. Taking it on an empty stomach won't change the fact that it is massively water soluble and uptake into human cells is a very real challenge.
Interesting. The empty stomach thing was one example but if it's an issue of solubility, it could a matter of hydration, electrolyte levels, etc.

I'm just saying it's possible some people inadvertently created a biochemical condition where they got better absorption and therefore got better results.
 
Powercage

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Interesting. The empty stomach thing was one example but if it's an issue of solubility, it could a matter of hydration, electrolyte levels, etc.

I'm just saying it's possible some people inadvertently created a biochemical condition where they got better absorption and therefore got better results.
That wouldnt follow without creating a new type of carrier for the ecdy itself. That has not currently happened.
 
HIT4ME

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I hear what Nostrum is saying - they've recently done a study that showed the microbiome of our guts can have a pretty meaningful impact on the effectiveness of the drugs people take as well. There could be a million factors, which is why it is so hard to prove anything in nutrition.
 
Powercage

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I hear what Nostrum is saying -
Thats not the case in this instance. Ingesting ecdy orally (shown by radioactive labeling in humans) shows that it is ingested in the ileum picked up by the liver and then ejected in bile acids, and then quantitatively excreted via urine/feces. Ecdy is too water soluble to be able to systemically enter delivery to muscles, and if you somehow did get around this (nobody has), it may not even do anything.
 
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nostrum420

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Thats not the case in this instance. Ingesting ecdy orally (shown by radioactive labeling in humans) shows that it is ingested in the ileum with bile acids. It gets metabolized in the liver and then quantitatively excreted in the kidney. Ecdy is too water soluble to be able to systemically enter delivery to muscles, and if you somehow did get around this (nobody has), it may not even do anything.
I assume there's specific literature, to which you're referring?
 
HIT4ME

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Thats not the case in this instance. Ingesting ecdy orally (shown by radioactive labeling in humans) shows that it is ingested in the ileum with bile acids. It gets metabolized in the liver and then quantitatively excreted in the kidney. Ecdy is too water soluble to be able to systemically enter delivery to muscles, and if you somehow did get around this (nobody has), it may not even do anything.
Yeah, I wasn't saying one way or another is right - just that I see what he is saying and that it may have some unknown application at this point.

The main study seems questionable to me because it's got all of these eye catching headlines out there. If you google for this, it's pages of news articles referring to each other - with no links to even the abstract.

So I started digging and found the full study:

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/333322619_Ecdysteroids_as_non-conventional_anabolic_agent_performance_enhancement_by_ecdysterone_supplementation_in_humans

I haven't done more than skim the study, but noted these things:

1. The capsules had Ecdy and leucine.
2. The back squat improvements seem to be marginally better in the EC groups.
3. The high dose ecdy group had less of a gain than the low dose ecdy group - although it is a marginal difference. Both ecdy groups outperformed placebo. This to me is a huge red flag, although it may just be statistically insignificant and signify a maximum dose level.


I also found this study by the same lead author:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/06/27/685230.full.pdf

So my original suspicion was that a supplement company was funding this and that it would be hard for WADA to test.

Now it looks like WADA is funding both these studies and this researcher may have done some work to create a test for the compound, based on the second study that shows they are looking into the pharmacokinetics of the compound. It seems suspect to me, but I will have to read more.
 
HIT4ME

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Also @Powercage - it looks like the second study above may have SOME conflict with your statement about the liver metabolizing the compound and kidneys excreting. It looks to me, unless I see something wrong here, that the second study shows (to your point) almost no metabolism at at all as it passes through the body - it just gets excreted. The "spinach" study with the fact the bench group did as well on the lower dose, however, contradicts the idea that the liver is metabolizing even further....since the larger dose doesn't seem to improve bioavailability. The issue isn't the liver then, since the larger dose should overwhelm the liver's ability to metabolize and slide through.

But it sounds like you probably have other research so maybe I am missing a lot of the picture...just debating, that's me.
 
Powercage

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Also @Powercage - it looks like the second study above may have SOME conflict with your statement about the liver metabolizing the compound and kidneys excreting. It looks to me, unless I see something wrong here, that the second study shows (to your point) almost no metabolism at at all as it passes through the body - it just gets excreted. The "spinach" study with the fact the bench group did as well on the lower dose, however, contradicts the idea that the liver is metabolizing even further....since the larger dose doesn't seem to improve bioavailability. The issue isn't the liver then, since the larger dose should overwhelm the liver's ability to metabolize and slide through.

But it sounds like you probably have other research so maybe I am missing a lot of the picture...just debating, that's me.
You are correct. That doesnt disagree with what I said. Large portions are not metabolized. But some are. It is not completely metabolized, but there is some happening. Thats why you see both metabolites and full ecdy in excretion.

 
nostrum420

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Enlightening. I think I found it and what I did find showed that what was excreted was largely conjugated and excreted the same way in which orally consumed steroids are expelled.

On it's own, this wouldn't suggest to me that it was too water soluble to be absorbed. In general, that claim doesn't really add up though. There are plenty of things that are quite water soluble that are absorbed quite well.
 
HIT4ME

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You are correct. That doesnt disagree with what I said. Large portions are not metabolized. But some are. It is not completely metabolized, but there is some happening. Thats why you see both metabolites and full ecdy in excretion.

Yeah, not being clear enough in my thought process and maybe putting some words in your mouth here. The larger doses, to me, indicate the liver is not the major catalyst for the metabolization of ecdy, i.e. - not the limited factor for absorption. If it were, a large enough dose would overwhelm the liver and more would pass through. But I realize this is not exactly what you were saying either...
 
Powercage

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Enlightening. I think I found it and what I did find showed that what was excreted was largely conjugated and excreted the same way in which orally consumed steroids are expelled.

On it's own, this wouldn't suggest to me that it was too water soluble to be absorbed. In general, that claim doesn't really add up though. There are plenty of things that are quite water soluble that are absorbed quite well.
Now find where it is shown to enter muscle tissue. Hint: it isn't. Having some similar metabolites from liver metabolism isn't all that telling. I even posted a study above showing that main metabolite, the problem is it is vast majority being excreted.
 
Powercage

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Yeah, not being clear enough in my thought process and maybe putting some words in your mouth here. The larger doses, to me, indicate the liver is not the major catalyst for the metabolization of ecdy, i.e. - not the limited factor for absorption. If it were, a large enough dose would overwhelm the liver and more would pass through. But I realize this is not exactly what you were saying either...
Think of the limiting factor for its skeletal muscle absorption as its direct route to excretion.
 
HIT4ME

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Think of the limiting factor for its skeletal muscle absorption as its direct route to excretion.
I hear what you are saying, but that doesn't mean it has to act directly on the muscle, I don't think? I mean, maybe it works upstream of something else that does get into the muscle?

I mean, by the same token GABA doesn't pass the blood brain barrier, but fuark me if it doesn't make me relaxed and sleepy.

But don't get me wrong...not saying I know enough to be sure I am right either. I'm learning from this...
 
Powercage

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I hear what you are saying, but that doesn't mean it has to act directly on the muscle, I don't think? I mean, maybe it works upstream of something else that does get into the muscle?

I mean, by the same token GABA doesn't pass the blood brain barrier, but fuark me if it doesn't make me relaxed and sleepy.
At the same time, GABA isnt mainly being excreted. It is working in other areas to upregulate serotonin.

If the majority is being directly excreted it isnt acting anywhere else.

Like I said way in the beginning. We have no mechanism why it should or does work in humans. We know it isnt entering skeletal muscle directly. And in any pharmacokinetic study we have we see it getting ejected via feces/urine almost immediately. It's not showing any metabolism in the gut.
 
nostrum420

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At the same time, GABA isnt mainly being excreted. It is working in other areas to upregulate serotonin.

If the majority is being directly excreted it isnt acting anywhere else.

Like I said way in the beginning. We have no mechanism why it should or does work in humans. We know it isnt entering skeletal muscle directly. And in any pharmacokinetic study we have we see it getting ejected via feces/urine almost immediately. It's not showing any metabolism in the gut.
The majority, according to what you posted, is excreted as deoxyecdysone. I'm not sure how this is proof it's not entering muscle tissue.
 
Powercage

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Powercage

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The majority, according to what you posted, is excreted as deoxyecdysone. I'm not sure how this is proof it's not entering muscle tissue.
Im traveling and dont have the radiolabeled study on hand. The only time its been shown in human skeletal muscle is using myotubes.

If I had to venture a guess on why it could work, I would think it might be due to potentially increasing protein utilization.
 
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nostrum420

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This is one of my big concerns. We have the recent study showing near AAS gains
Then we have other studies with verified higher amounts of ecdy in use showing no change:


So what is happening?
Looks like the hydroxyl group at C22 is conjugated pretty easily and that conjugate is excreted.

So, it is a solubility issue but not of Ecdy itself but rather of it's metabolite. Since these conjugations tend to happen in 1st pass I stand by our earlier conclusion of poor oral bioavailability.

With this in mind it makes sense that other conditions in the gut could effect absorption, ie empty stomach vs taking it with a fatty meal, etc.
 
Powercage

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Looks like the hydroxyl group at C22 is conjugated pretty easily and that conjugate is excreted.

So, it is a solubility issue but not of Ecdy itself but rather of it's metabolite. Since these conjugations tend to happen in 1st pass I stand by our earlier conclusion of poor oral bioavailability.
Both really. Since they both readily end up excreted. But still, why is a 50% higher dose showing zero response in trained individuals?

It would be nice to see an isoproteinic study done.
 
nostrum420

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Both really. Since they both readily end up excreted. But still, why is a 50% higher dose showing zero response in trained individuals?

It would be nice to see an isoproteinic study done.
It was less than 1% of the original ecdy excreted un-metabolized, so it should be lipophilic enough to pass a cell wall before being conjugated. Just too much is getting conjugated before it gets that chance. This makes sense based on the myotube studies as well.

Maybe I'll make a small batch of TD.
 
GreenMachineX

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Problem
Is guys is the quality. There’s alot of BS ecdysterone. Point is Iron Forged has the real deal and I called it. I’d never lie about a brand or compound and in my log and even since then Lax and Ecdysterone have been called a scam.

I could pull my log and tag everyone here and tell them to kiss my ass, but look I’m 41. People need to think outside the box and give “ANYTHING” a chance.

When I was competing in the 90’s, 90% of forums called Creatine a scam. You will die of kidney failure. Now look. It’s a staple. It’s used medically to treat depresssion.

I will be the one that calls these kids out 5 -10 - 20 years later and say I told you so. A closed mind, is an ignorant mind🤷🏼‍♂️
I’m with you. Iron Forged’s ecdy is awesome.
I haven’t made it more than a week with their Most Wanted though because it gives me headaches. Theirs is the only brand that does and the only brand I’ve tried that uses the enhanced absorption.

Actually, OL’s laxo gave me headaches too years ago when I used theirs which is also believe had enhanced absorption. But, what I like best about Iron Forged ecdy is it gives me just enough e2 (or Estrogen beta receptor activation) cures me of anxiety and all my other low e2 symptoms. I finished an 8 week run about 3 weeks ago and just started again because I miss it too much.
 
WesleyInman

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@WesleyInman
Reread that post. You liked it before I edited it lol.
That's cool that you edited, I still agree with you. I truly like that brand and even some of the greatest brands imo have sides for people.

My pwo that I sold for awhile I had like 95% great reviews but then I had 1-2 people say it really didn't do much at all for them. One guy said he hated it LOL. It's like anything man, some people just don't respond.

I get it. Sorry to hear you got a headache, but glad their Ecdysterone works well for you :)
 
Par Deus

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About 5-6 years ago I was requested to beta test a product called MOST WANTED. It was Laxogenin and Ecdysterone. After a 60 day run I determined it was effective. My recovery was improved, and I had some aggression and gained about 3lbs of lean mass in 60days on a somewhat mediocre diet.


Everyone laughed.


Enter 2019....Guess this means I got the last laugh? I was right...
Bioavailability and quality of product on these two (and the general category) have been the problem.
 
Par Deus

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Ive used Iron Forged. Never noticed anything personally, if it was AAS style gains as suggested by that study this would be impossible. Lax and ecdy are called a scam at this point in time because it doesnt seem to work in most people. And there is no likely mechanism (yet?).
I know the mechanism on Lax.

Ecdy, I think I found it, but I cannot recall, off-hand.
 
Powercage

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I know the mechanism on Lax.

Ecdy, I think I found it, but I cannot recall, off-hand.
Do you have any research with the mech on hand? Mechanisms in murine models do not necessarily translate to humans.

If you are referring to increased MPS via Akt phosphorylation in rats, we haven't seen that in humans yet.

Bioavailability and quality of product on these two (and the general category) have been the problem.
We can keep saying this, but that hasn't been shown to be the case when the ecdy is tested. For instance the study above had ecdy standardized to higher than the AAS-like study, yet no effects were seen in strength, body comp or at the AR.

Which suggests if it does work, it likely isn't the ecdy itself. But another factor that is either allowing it to work, or one we aren't considering.
 
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GreenMachineX

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That's cool that you edited, I still agree with you. I truly like that brand and even some of the greatest brands imo have sides for people.

My pwo that I sold for awhile I had like 95% great reviews but then I had 1-2 people say it really didn't do much at all for them. One guy said he hated it LOL. It's like anything man, some people just don't respond.

I get it. Sorry to hear you got a headache, but glad their Ecdysterone works well for you :)
Yeah, I think I’m going to stay on their ecdy for life lol.
 
Par Deus

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What's the molecular weight? Wondering about TD version
480-ish. That isn't an issue.

LogP = - .5 or so -- so polar, but not problematically so for cellular uptake.

Not ideal for transdermal at all, but not overwhelmingly so. But, it could get expensive, especially if it is being metabolized, heavily, in tissues other than the liver.
 
Par Deus

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Do you have any research with the mech on hand? Mechanisms in murine models do not necessarily translate to humans.

If you are referring to increased MPS via Akt phosphorylation in rats, we haven't seen that in humans yet.


We can keep saying this, but that hasn't been shown to be the case when the ecdy is tested. For instance the study above had ecdy standardized to higher than the AAS-like study, yet no effect.

Which suggests if it does work, it likely isn't the ecdy itself. But another factor.
Ecdy, like I said, I cannot recall, off-hand. Both with mechanism and why it goes wrong. I kinda think I recall that it is a metabolic thing outside the liver, but good product is expensive, so one of the companies I do designs for, they weren't hugely interested (plus, the general skepticism in the bb community because it has been hyped a couple times over the years and has not got it done for people), so I may just be recalling incorrectly on figuring it out.

Lax, I am doing a product for another company, so i am not going to say why I am pretty sure it should work if done, correctly.
 
WesleyInman

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@WesleyInman
Reread that post. You liked it before I edited it lol.
That's cool that you edited, I still agree with you. I truly like that brand and even some of the greatest brands imo have sides for people.

My pwo that I sold for awhile I had like 95% great reviews but then I had 1-2 people say it really didn't do much at all for them. One guy said he hated it LOL. It's like anything man, some people just don't respond.

I get it. Sorry to hear you got a headache, but glad their Ecdysterone works well for you :)
 
WesleyInman

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Duplicate Post **Deleted**
 
StatePlan1425

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For further discussion:
 
Aleksandar37

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Now realistically, people that want ecdy to succeed are treating this like the Jacob Wilson study on HMB, which we found out later was impossible to replicate. Companies that sold HMB used that study to sell as much as they could before more research came out. We later learned HMB (both FA and Ca) isnt any better than leucine alone.
Jacob likes to pretend he's mister science now and that he didn't used to run a bodybuilding board that banned people (myself included) for citing actual research, especially anything questioning geology and the age of the Earth. Not surprised to see him getting called out for bad science.
 
GreenMachineX

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For further discussion:
Is ecdysone and ecdysterone the same thing?
 
Powercage

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Jacob likes to pretend he's mister science now and that he didn't used to run a bodybuilding board that banned people (myself included) for citing actual research, especially anything questioning geology and the age of the Earth. Not surprised to see him getting called out for bad science.
It’s hard to take his research seriously.
 

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