Don't be afraid of Prohormones if you are over 21 and a "Noob"

[NoAddedHmones]

There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start, so I suppose the beginning is as good a place as any. Let's go:

No one is even coming anywhere close to saying that PHs don't have benefits over testosterone boosters. Nice straw man. I completely agree that PHs will yield significantly greater gains in strength and size than testosterone boosters, but also does come with more significant potential adverse effects. Can they be managed? Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the risks are present, and can be significant, and should be considered and addressed, not shrugged off. As for no testosterone booster producing results, they won't produce results by increasing testosterone per se, but I can show you numerous studies showing that ingredients like ashwagandha, forskolin, etc have been shown to improve body composition, endurance, etc. Granted, it's not close to the same degree as PHs, but it's not "nothing," and they also do, whether you want to admit it or not, have a more favorable safety profile than PHs. Both natural products and PHs have their place. You trying to write off the natural products completely is incorrect.

Are you really recommending prohormones to people whose growth plates are still growing? And even more, recommending them for the purpose of maximizing growth potential for adolescents and young adults? That's asinine. I'm almost at a loss for words. Can we get an Admin in here to see if these recommendations and suggestions are really something we should be allowing and condoning?

As for you mentioning estrogen in regards to ashwagandha, you just love playing with semantics and wording to completely pervert actual meanings and conclusions, don't you? Ashwagandha has been shown in numerous studies to improve testosterone, body composition, endurance, sexual function, etc. What is the practical application of you mentioning estrogen in regards to ashwagandha except fear mongering? There is none.

Your last paragraph is beyond laughable. It's the pot calling the kettle black, except the pot is vantablack, and the kettle is actually dark grey. You think that we should warn people about the estrogenic compounds in ashwagandha? But you're the one recommending prohormones to new, inexperienced, uneducated lifters, claiming that they're "safe because they're legal." Not that they can be ran safely if the potential adverse effects are monitored and minimized, but that they're "safe" by virtue of being legal. You also claimed that these PHs increase your natural testosterone production, which is, at best, a terrible perversion of the semantics of the matter, and completely contrary to the truth, which is that these PHs will lead to at least some level of suppression, if not shutdown, of natural testosterone production upon cessation of use.

I could probably type pages and pages about all the things you've said that are, at best, misleading, and, at worst, completely incorrect and irresponsible, but I think I've made my point(s) clear already, as evidenced by the many people liking, agreeing with, and repping me for my comments and concerns. At this point, I'm just wasting my time going back and forth with you, and you still haven't even addressed most of the points/issues/concerns I presented, but only responded to your own made up questions and concerns, as that's the only way you are able to make an argument that makes even a little sense.

To liven things up a bit, here are a series of pictures of Arnold that demonstrate the sequence of my initial responses to the majority of your posts. There's just so much that makes me go, "what, did you really just say that," followed by a facepalm upon realizing that you did actually say what I thought you said, and finally laughing, as if I didn't laugh about it, I'd cry at the insanity of it all. It's all one big joke really.
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Anabolics Minds Dark Knight....that no one asked for.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Anabolics Minds Dark Knight....that no one asked for.

Haha, fair enough. But really, do you think that PHs are safer than, say, Test1fy? Do you think that Test1fy has absolutely no benefit on muscle growth? I for one think Test1fy is much safer than PHs, and that it can also have benefits on performance and body composition. The same goes for M-Test and AlphaMax XT. Do you think that it's accurate to say that these PHs will increase natural testosterone production? That seems to suggest that they don't/won't cause suppression.

You have your opinions and that's great. I think that prohormones are reasonably safe for men over 21 (what I suggest to licensee's) and certainly are candidates for on cycle support if one worries about such things (I do not).

We can disagree and I don't think my opinion is laughable nor reckless and I have compared less studied ingredients that could have way worse effects that no one discussed. Boosting testosterone has shown ZERO activity in building additional muscle mass with diet and exercise. They do contain estrogenic compounds or at least create more estrogen with the "boosting" and they often don't have estrogen inhibitors or aromatase inhibitors.

I don't think my suggestion that men understand the risks use prohormones.

We can leave it at that I suppose and I am ok with you and I disagreeing on the topic, but at the same point it's not irresponsible to use an herbal testosterone booster with rat studies that show estrogenic effects in rats? Estrogen can close growth plates and things like 1-DHEA and Epiandrosterone don't convert into estrogen and I would personally be more concerned with a young man using an herbal booster than a prohormone that doesn't convert.

You're entitled to your opinions, and I've made my options clear, so I think we're done here. That said, do you still stand by your claim that PHs increase natural testosterone production? Are you saying that they won't/don't cause suppression upon cessation of use?

 

[NoAddedHmones]

Haha, fair enough. But really, do you think that PHs are safer than, say, Test1fy? Do you think that Test1fy has absolutely no benefit on muscle growth? I for one think Test1fy is much safer than PHs, and that it can also have benefits on performance and body composition. The same goes for M-Test and AlphaMax XT. Do you think that it's accurate to say that these PHs will increase natural testosterone production? That seems to suggest that they don't/won't cause suppression.

You're entitled to your opinions, and I've made my options clear, so I think we're done here. That said, do you still stand by your claim that PHs increase natural testosterone production? Are you saying that they won't/don't cause suppression upon cessation of use?

Honestly don't have an opinion on this topic, you guys are in the land of the free and can do what you want and take what you want. In saying that I lost 10 mins of my life getting up to page five, reading essay after essay by you saying the exact same thing over and over and over again.

Anyways carry on.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Honestly don't have an opinion on this topic, you guys are in the land of the free and can do what you want and take what you want. In saying that I lost 10 mins of my life getting up to page five, reading essay after essay by you saying the exact same thing over and over and over again.

Anyways carry on.

Well then I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

 

[Danes]

I see all this advice to "skip prohormones until you run a bunch of other stuff first. Let me explain why I think that this is flawed logic.

1) Prohormones are natural in the body
2) These so called "natural" herbal testosterone boosters can have negative side effects worse than prohormones such as estrogenic compounds and even boosting testosterone without reducing aromatase.
3) Testosterone boosters have been shown in studies to not impact lean mass
4) Congress gave us DHEA's as an exemption and Progestins as an exemption for a reason, so let's enjoy the benefits!
5) Faster results in your body means faster results in your life. Don't wait to enjoy success. That's like saying "Skip the $22 an hour job and start with the $13 an hour job so you can get used to money".

If you want to start with a prohormone 1-DHEA is an amazing place to start. Nothing crazy, nothing exotic just a good basic prohormone. If you want to take a testosterone boosting agent like RISE AND SWELL (which is amazing by the way) then even better, but there is no reason to shy away from prohormones as your first supplement!

Great marketing . But why that wall of text just for advertising for RISE AND SWELL ?

 

[malin]

Well then I'm sorry to have wasted your time.

Im glad that you took your time and put all that info for all noobs to see , The opening post was wrong/misleading on many levels . Good work

 

[CATdiesel76]

I think we can let go of this whole test booster/ph argument and just focus on the fact that he said newbs should use them. Nobody who is a newb has any business touching anything when you don't have a clue what you are doing. Especially when you have unbelievable nattybgains starting out. I was putting 50lbs on my lifts every couple of months. If he had said once you have a few years of serious training under your belt screw wasting money on test boosters and other supps and go to something like these PHs that are way more cost effective and deliver better results I would have been fine with it

 

[EricMM]

I think we can let go of this whole test booster/ph argument and just focus on the fact that he said newbs should use them. Nobody who is a newb has any business touching anything when you don't have a clue what you are doing. Especially when you have unbelievable nattybgains starting out. I was putting 50lbs on my lifts every couple of months. If he had said once you have a few years of serious training under your belt screw wasting money on test boosters and other supps and go to something like these PHs that are way more cost effective and deliver better results I would have been fine with it

Nothing wrong with that advice either. There is room for lots of opinions. When I say Noob I mean to supplements and not just training.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

Nothing wrong with that advice either. There is room for lots of opinions. When I say Noob I mean to supplements and not just training.

What is this then?

"I'm pretty much a novice when it comes to proper nutrition, workout, and supplementation."

1-Andro is your best bet. Use the LG or the Hi-Tech version and Noveadex XT for PCT. Here's the cycle I would take:

Hi-Tech 1-Testosterone - 2 pills per day
LG Sciences 1-Andro - 2 pills per day

Is that not recommending a PH to someone who clearly describes themselves as a "novice when it comes to proper nutrition, workout, and supplementation?"

 

[Danes]

1-DHEA and Epiandrosterone don't convert into estrogen and I would personally be more concerned with a young man using an herbal booster than a prohormone that doesn't convert.

I have never tried any drug but at this point, I would love to get high so I can at least forget this statement for couple of hours..

 

[EricMM]

I think we can let go of this whole test booster/ph argument and just focus on the fact that he said newbs should use them. Nobody who is a newb has any business touching anything when you don't have a clue what you are doing. Especially when you have unbelievable nattybgains starting out. I was putting 50lbs on my lifts every couple of months. If he had said once you have a few years of serious training under your belt screw wasting money on test boosters and other supps and go to something like these PHs that are way more cost effective and deliver better results I would have been fine with it

This is a forum to facilitate discussions!