thebigt
Legend
what do you think the government will do if there is NOT enough people willing to voluntarily get vaccination to make significant impact?
Donald Trump running for president
- Thread starter LiftWithDonuts
- Start date
Ricky10
Well-known member
I don’t know, but it seems as though some legislation has already been discussed as other members have posted. Personally, I don’t think that mandates would fly very well at all....I don’t think any of us do. What I picture happening more so is that people with proof of vaccination will have more freedoms/privileges than those who are not. It has even been proposed that there could be a $1500 vaccine stimulus check awarded to those who get vaccinated as an incentive.
Seems employers may hop on board too. It’s probably just a matter of time before hospitals require it from their staff..
puccah8808
Legend
Those phone alerts already freak me out. What more are we going to have to do?! Ugh....
Jiigzz
Legend
It won't be mandatory here, but I'm going to get it as soon as I can.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
What phone alerts?
tyga tyga
Legend
Incentivize people to get it
dixonk
Well-known member
Exempt me from wearing the stupid face mask and from ever having to do another swab test...I’ll stick whatever cocktail you want to stick into my arm. Money isn’t going to motivate me.
dixonk
Well-known member
I wonder what effect that would have on the amount of metrosexual, soy latte sipping, man bun wearing, purse toting, makeup wearing, Prius driving sissies that we have running around pretending to be men?
HIT4ME
Well-known member
The other factor to keep in mind is that there are currently 49 more vaccines in trials. Most of these use older platforms that HAVE been tested in humans. In 6 months, the mRNA vax may not even be the only option.
Having said that, the mRNA tech is pretty cutting edge and has a lot of advantages over prior tech. You can develop drugs more quickly on this platform, so the fact it is first to the finish line is expected in this case, the proof is in the pudding I guess. You can also manufacture vaccines on this platform more quickly, more consistently, and cheaper than prior platforms.
Finally, there is no risk of getting live virus or even any unwanted substances like with prior tech.
In theory it should be safer and I only see long term issues with people who have, for instance, a dormant autoimmunity issue, being a potential concern from my research. I am hesitant to be a guinea pig with the first doses, would much prefer it was around for 5-10 years first (most people in the industry considered this tech 20 years away from use in mainstream prior to this from what I have read)...but it may prove to just be a better, safer platform for such a use.
Having said that, the mRNA tech is pretty cutting edge and has a lot of advantages over prior tech. You can develop drugs more quickly on this platform, so the fact it is first to the finish line is expected in this case, the proof is in the pudding I guess. You can also manufacture vaccines on this platform more quickly, more consistently, and cheaper than prior platforms.
Finally, there is no risk of getting live virus or even any unwanted substances like with prior tech.
In theory it should be safer and I only see long term issues with people who have, for instance, a dormant autoimmunity issue, being a potential concern from my research. I am hesitant to be a guinea pig with the first doses, would much prefer it was around for 5-10 years first (most people in the industry considered this tech 20 years away from use in mainstream prior to this from what I have read)...but it may prove to just be a better, safer platform for such a use.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Haha, I bet all of them would become anti-vaxxers.
puccah8808
Legend
Ahhh, it must be a California thing. We were getting alerts the other day about the lockdown. You know, kinda like the Amber alert. We were getting them all day.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Gotcha, yeah, I haven't seen that in VA.
tyga tyga
Legend
I wonder if you go and get the antibody test if you could carry the report (or take a pic on your phone) if it can exempt you from being swabbed for at minimum, six months lol
dixonk
Well-known member
Nope. I asked about that one already. At least not on military installations. Then they swabbed me twice for good measure
kisaj
Legend
Increase their e2 and make the situation even worse.
dixonk
Well-known member
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Have you done your math? Do you honestly think that 1B Americans have had this virus already?
ax1
Legend
Invalid Link Removed
Written by Invalid Link Removed
Monday December 21, 2020Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
A video of a confrontation between Ventura County, California health officials and restaurant owner Anton Van Happen has gone viral. The health officials were ordering Mr. Van Happen to close his business because he allegedly violated California’s ban on outdoor dining. Mr. Van Happen asked the health officials if the government will pay his employees and his rent while his business is indefinitely closed.
Mr. Van Happen is hardly the only small business owner worried about how to pay bills during the lockdowns. Many small businesses operate on a narrow profit margin, so being forced to “temporarily” shut down or limit the number of customers they can serve is a virtual death sentence.
The lockdowns have already caused as many as 200,000 small businesses to permanently close. Lockdowns, by shrinking the number of employers, lead to long-term unemployment or lower wages for many workers.
While governments have terrorized small businesses, they have typically deemed the big chain stores “essential businesses” so they can remain open. The lockdowns are thus another government policy that gives big businesses a competitive advantage over their smaller competitors.
The benefits big businesses get from the lockdowns — including fewer competitors, more customers, and a job market with more workers competing for fewer jobs — may explain why many big businesses are not fighting the lockdowns. Instead, most big retail chains are requiring their workers and customers to wear masks. Many big businesses may soon deny service to those who refuse to receive a Covid vaccine.
One would think that progressives who claim to oppose policies that benefit big corporations like WalMart, Target, and Amazon would oppose the lockdowns. Sadly, even many progressives are unquestioningly parroting the Covid propaganda and demonizing those who dissent.
By slowing down the development of herd immunity among the population, the lockdowns could put those truly at risk in greater danger. Lockdowns have also had negative effects such as increases in drug and alcohol abuse and increases in domestic violence. Meanwhile, many schoolchildren are deprived of the opportunity to interact with their teachers and their peers. Instead, these children are subjected to the fraud of “virtual learning.”
Resistance to Covid tyranny is growing as more people figure out that lockdowns and mandates are both unnecessary and harmful. This resistance was largely started by small business owners faced with a choice between obeying the government or making sure they, and their employees, can feed their families. Small business owners have been leaders in recent anti-lockdown protests across America.
Eventually the resistance will grow to the point where the politicians will be forced to either double down on authoritarianism or admit the lockdowns were a mistake. Either way, those of us who know the truth must resist the Covid tyranny until government officials no longer terrorize small businesses for the crime of serving willing consumers.
Copyright © 2020 by RonPaul Institute. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are given. Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Written by Invalid Link Removed
Monday December 21, 2020Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
A video of a confrontation between Ventura County, California health officials and restaurant owner Anton Van Happen has gone viral. The health officials were ordering Mr. Van Happen to close his business because he allegedly violated California’s ban on outdoor dining. Mr. Van Happen asked the health officials if the government will pay his employees and his rent while his business is indefinitely closed.
Mr. Van Happen is hardly the only small business owner worried about how to pay bills during the lockdowns. Many small businesses operate on a narrow profit margin, so being forced to “temporarily” shut down or limit the number of customers they can serve is a virtual death sentence.
The lockdowns have already caused as many as 200,000 small businesses to permanently close. Lockdowns, by shrinking the number of employers, lead to long-term unemployment or lower wages for many workers.
While governments have terrorized small businesses, they have typically deemed the big chain stores “essential businesses” so they can remain open. The lockdowns are thus another government policy that gives big businesses a competitive advantage over their smaller competitors.
The benefits big businesses get from the lockdowns — including fewer competitors, more customers, and a job market with more workers competing for fewer jobs — may explain why many big businesses are not fighting the lockdowns. Instead, most big retail chains are requiring their workers and customers to wear masks. Many big businesses may soon deny service to those who refuse to receive a Covid vaccine.
One would think that progressives who claim to oppose policies that benefit big corporations like WalMart, Target, and Amazon would oppose the lockdowns. Sadly, even many progressives are unquestioningly parroting the Covid propaganda and demonizing those who dissent.
By slowing down the development of herd immunity among the population, the lockdowns could put those truly at risk in greater danger. Lockdowns have also had negative effects such as increases in drug and alcohol abuse and increases in domestic violence. Meanwhile, many schoolchildren are deprived of the opportunity to interact with their teachers and their peers. Instead, these children are subjected to the fraud of “virtual learning.”
Resistance to Covid tyranny is growing as more people figure out that lockdowns and mandates are both unnecessary and harmful. This resistance was largely started by small business owners faced with a choice between obeying the government or making sure they, and their employees, can feed their families. Small business owners have been leaders in recent anti-lockdown protests across America.
Eventually the resistance will grow to the point where the politicians will be forced to either double down on authoritarianism or admit the lockdowns were a mistake. Either way, those of us who know the truth must resist the Covid tyranny until government officials no longer terrorize small businesses for the crime of serving willing consumers.
Copyright © 2020 by RonPaul Institute. Permission to reprint in whole or in part is gladly granted, provided full credit and a live link are given. Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed
Last edited:
ax1
Legend
**fixed before people are offended, ok my work is done here**
ax1
Legend
Have you done your math? Do you honestly think that 1B Americans have had this virus already?
It doesnt matter does it? We have a significant sample size, so if the survivability rate of 10 million is 99.98% that it should be roughly the same for 10 billion. Just like pharma tests a few people for the vax to have a 95% efficacy rate, that should carry on to 330 million....amiright??
HIT4ME
Well-known member
I wasn't raising a concern about sample sizes being extrapolated into larger populations. We know 300,000 Americans have died from this. In order for your numbers to be correct, we would need 1B americans to be infected to have 300,000 dead. Obviously, that is hilariously incorrect. If you want to say 99.8% that might be a different story - then we need 100,000,000 Americans to have been infected, or almost 1/3 the population.
Now if you want to say the death count is falsely high, which is likely untrue, then by how much? Think only 1/3 of these 300,000 deaths are caused by Covid? Ok, so at 100,000 deaths with a 99.98% death rate that equates to 300,000,000 Americans. Crisis over. We are all inoculated.
ax1
Legend
The survivability numbers would be accurate with 1 billion, it wouldnt be 300,000 dead it would be extraordinarily higher but the % rate would remain the same. There was no claim that the death count would be the ssame.
As the the death county being falsely high, its partially true, partially correct. Many of the reported deaths are from people who had other factors involved including many who were close to death such as nursing homes, and also the CDC guidelines were that a doctor can suspect the patient died from Corona with no proof. They could have died from the flu, or a regular cold, who knows???
Personally, I would guess that 10s of millions of more people had the Covid and never bothered to get tested. The survivability rate is probably even higher.
Now to add another perspective, people are distracted. We are spending trillions of resources fighting a little Chinese military bug when 18,000 from starvation and being malnutrition. Today is day 296 of the Covid-1984 crisis, thats 5,328,000 children that died from starvation and this government made it possible for the ultra rich to get richer by stealing from us, the people getting chicken feed and most people being distracted by having the illusion of little government daddy protecting them. Side vent, but vent it is.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
How many extra deaths were there this year compared to prior years? For example, if we know that roughly 100k will die in the US from all these different things (crashes, flu, medical mistakes, etc) and in 2020 there were no extra deaths at all, then yeah, deaths are being misrepresented, but if in 2020 there's an extra 300,000 deaths, then they came from Covid. We can get crazy with all these percentages and whatever, but if there's a ton of extra deaths this year...so has anyone looked at that yet?
ax1
Legend
You would assume crashes, flu and medical mistakes would be lower than prior years which need to be accounted for in research. And yes, less medical mistakes due to elective procedures being shut down as well this year.
Then there is suicide, drug use, alcohol use, etc...which all take a toll in life and increase with economic downturns caused all artificially enforced by politicians.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Yes, exactly. IF 1B Americans were infected, we would have 300,000 deaths IF the survivability rate is 99.97%
The formula is deaths/infections = death rate. (death rate is the same as 1-the survivability rate)
So if we have a survivability rate of 0.9997 then the death rate is 1 - 0.9997 = 0.0003
And if we have a death rate of 300,000 then....we can now calculate the number of infections using simple algebra.
Simple algebra - 300,000/y = 0.0003
300,000 = 0.0003y
300,000/.0003 = y
y = 1,000,000,000
Of course we KNOW that 300,000 Americans have died from this and that's pretty reliable from a number of sources/angles. So that means that in order for there to be 300,000 dead americans with the proposed death rate, we would need 1B Americans to be infected - which is obviously false - since we have about 330,000,000 Americans in total.
If you assume that 1/6 of the deaths are actually attributed to covid we would have:
50,000/.0003 = y
y = 166,666,666
This would require an over-reporting of 6X and half of the American population to be infected. This would mean the average person knows 300 people who have been infected with this virus if the average person knows 600 people (Google search).
So, unless you believe the Americans are under reporting their population by 2/3 or that more than half of the US population is already infected AND we only have 1/6 the number of deaths from Covid as being reported...you cannot possibly, with even simple algebra, believe that 99.97% of people with this virus have survived. But it keeps getting repeated by a bunch of people....and it really makes me wonder what they teach in junior high these days?
It seems pretty clear that at best the death rate is at 0.3% and most likely it is around 0.6% - which would equal about 2M dead Americans in a couple years if left unchecked.
But hey, maybe someone misplaced a decimal point in the 99.97% figure and no one bothered to check the math before they started repeating it....but talk about a sheep move.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
Great point. Deaths from other sources are reduced - so if we have 300,000 more deaths than normal - that means we have more than 300,000 deaths that would have happened otherwise, without Covid.
The data has been posted on this board before in other threads and it seems like a good portion of the Covid deaths are in line with the excess death rate.
We also know how many people commit suicide, OD, etc. in a normal year and can compare those numbers. Further, suicide, drug use, and alcohol use caused deaths could all be misreported. How many of those people had Covid and were going to die anyway (since this seems to be seen as a valid line of thinking)?
thebigt
Legend
you mean force...once they force this vaccine on us what's next?
i see this as a very icy, slippery slope with the government telling us what is best for us...communist china here we come, imo.
Ricky10
Well-known member
Well, that is what we are being told the majority of people allegedly voted for in the election. That’s what Biden supporters were voting for and Trump made that clear to the public on multiple/countless occasions.
dixonk
Well-known member
Have you done your math? Do you honestly think that 1B Americans have had this virus already?
No I am saying that of the people that got it 99.7% of them survived.
dixonk
Well-known member
I say maybe 10% of reported deaths are from COVID. Most reported deaths are people that died WITH COVID.
dixonk
Well-known member
I say maybe 10% of reported deaths are from COVID. Most reported deaths are people that died WITH COVID.
ax1
Legend
There are 3 things I am absolute certain of when it comes to humans:
1. There are those who know how to count
2. There are those who cant
So.....That 99.97 number we used for for younger age groups, so partially my fault for being vague. I havent looked deeper into this though on how they came up with the numbers. Of course we all know its the seniors and most unfit that have the highest rates.
Last edited:
ax1
Legend
The big issue in NY were the nursing home deaths and how King Cumho sent Covid-1984 positive patients and forced them into nursing homes. He blames he was only following Federal Guidelines, but I didnt see him following Federal Guidlines when it comes to gun control, not then, not now,, soooo
ax1
Legend
Im more worried about the disaster of expanded government powers with the shutdowns and all more than anything. The vax isnt as dramatic to me as the damage they already have done. Its too easy for them now.
ax1
Legend
Thats as simple as it gets, people talk about getting together as a society and social responsibility. What about the responsibility to take care of health so everybody doesnt get that sick if they encounter a virus?
But then people like this gender neutral, the health secretary of PA wanna tell people what to do???
Can you count all the chins on this thing below? And Im sure she has no problem sending steroid bodybuilders in prison even it took hormones to change their sex, but yeah sure I give up, fuq people, lol.
Invalid Link Removed
Attachments
mavup
Member
I usually stay out of these discussions but I agree with this. As far as an overall, I’ve seen 0.4-0.8% IFR, and 0.6% being right in the middle of that seems about right. In the spring when everything first started, most estimates were 0.6-1.2% IFR, with an early estimate of 0.94%. IFR has since decreased for a number of reasons, leaving us with the first estimates hit4me and I suggested.
Additionally, for the comments about excess death due to COVID or not:
For the remainder of excess deaths that are not documented as due to COVID, we don’t know the exact breakdown and can’t say explicitly that the majority are missed COVID deaths, but we can infer based on other data that this is the most likely scenario. So, countries like Belgium that counted probable COVID deaths did not see excess mortality (the discrepancy between total excess deaths and what is counted as COVID). "Belgium has virtually no discrepancy between COVID-19 reported mortality (confirmed and possible cases) and excess mortality."
Invalid Link Removed
Additionally, if lockdowns are the cause of the majority of excess death and not COVID, there would be excess death in places like New Zealand that had a harsh lockdown but very few COVID deaths. This has proven to not be the case. Invalid Link Removed
For the flu this year (since it was mentioned as a factor of excess mortality) infections and deaths are down compared to most years, for a variety of reasons, which I can get into but don’t have it written up at the moment. Basically, we all have some residual immunity to the flu, the vaccine was administered in record numbers this year (14 million additional doses administered in doctor’s offices, and the flu vaccine prevents against ICU admissions and death. From 2012-2015, which included a year where the vaccine efficacy at preventing infection was around 20% (one of the lowest in recent times) an analysis demonstrated that almost 80% of adult ICU admissions were prevented by the vaccine. Even when it isn’t matched well, it works in the background. You can also look up the 2009 swine flu pandemic where the same effect on seasonal influenza is demonstrated; while various influenza and viral strains can coexist, the seasonal flu is significantly Inhibited by the presence of a novel virus. The novel virus, influenza or Sars-cov-2, dominates. Factor in the difference in R number between the flu and Sars-cov-2, and it’s no surprise that a virus that is less infectious is not prevalent, especially considering the measures we have in place to prevent transmission.
At the end of the day, the IFR number is what it is, and is probably not the best metric to focus on when we have age-stratified IFR. This U.K. source seems to be one of the most reliable and up to date: Invalid Link Removed
Last edited:
thebigt
Legend
ax1
Legend
This is why I was anti-shutdown and anti-stimulus from day 1. Its not worth it in the long run of our country. We can be pro-active without infringing on our liberties at the same time. For some reason, our Constitutional support has been an overwhelming minority.
tyga tyga
Legend
Well no, not “force” because incentivizing would allow you to make a choice- Whether it’s worth getting if they attach something to it (money, more than likely.)
“Force”- by definition, you have no choice.
ax1
Legend
Overall the economic impact and its effects cant be necessarily measured as they arent that acute. Generally people focus and what they can see in front of them and not that far ahead of them. Anyways I hope the globe recovers as fast as possible but just wanted to point that out.
Interestingly, my King of NY is acknowledging publicly that the shutdowns have contributed to an adaptation of behavior. Since people arent meeting up at the bar, club, event, etc....everyone is gathering together at home and now the #1 contributor of the spread is small gatherings at home. So now we (not me, lol) have to question was it all worth it? Do public shutdowns really reduce the spread, or even contribute to its growth? We know at least in the immediate they work, but people's behaviors change and being social creatures we know whats going to happen. And in a private setting people are less likely to wear a mask and be confined to a smaller space.
ax1
Legend
If only people also understood the costs of incentivization.
thebigt
Legend
bullshyt....you always have a choice--may not be a nice choice but choice all the same...force is when your choices are limited to bad and worse!!!!
how about those restaurants choosing to stay open and being fined $1,000 a day and now they are out of business---they had a choice-eh? close and go out of business or stay open and be fined out of business---some choice, right?
ax1
Legend
King Cumho would just say, "I know its hard" then flies chopper to his 2 million dollar private home.
ax1
Legend
Even if they let you choose and you opt out, you still dont have a choice to pay for others who opt in.