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Donald Trump running for president

thebigt said:
here is a hypothetical for ya....are you certain that future generations will not look back at abortions with the same disdain we have for past generations due to slavery.
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This is entirely irrelevant to any discussion we are having man. I already said, or am saying now, that late term abortions except in medical emergencies or cases of rape are terrible and should be viewed with disdain. Whether or not I agree with early term abortions isn’t really relevant, as there’s no way banning all abortions period is going to come close to actually preventing abortions. Prohibition worked so well, right? Nobody has guns in Chicago or Detroit, right?

I also never said that tax dollars should fund non-medical abortions, only that I don’t think banning early abortions is an effective plan in any way. There’s a huge fundamental difference between me saying something shouldn’t be illegal and saying that you should be forced to pay for it under the threat of imprisonment.

This is a really stupid question man... I’m sorry...
 
thebigt said:
not sure about this...are they wanting to include illegals in medicare for all? geez, the cost of this would be scary....
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No clue. Honestly I don't think many of them have thought it all the way through yet. Politicians get buzz words and they push them out there, but then realize that it might not make sense once reality sinks in. It's more marketing than anything.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
This is entirely irrelevant to any discussion we are having man. I already said, or am saying now, that late term abortions except in medical emergencies or cases of rape are terrible and should be viewed with disdain. Whether or not I agree with early term abortions isn’t really relevant, as there’s no way banning all abortions period is going to come close to actually preventing abortions. Prohibition worked so well, right? Nobody has guns in Chicago or Detroit, right?

I also never said that tax dollars should fund non-medical abortions, only that I don’t think banning early abortions is an effective plan in any way. There’s a huge fundamental difference between me saying something shouldn’t be illegal and saying that you should be forced to pay for it under the threat of imprisonment.

This is a really stupid question man... I’m sorry...
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I asked a simple 'hypothetical' question and you go off...geez!!!!



ok, i'm going to take the high road and just chock it up to you being unable to comprehend the question...
 
Aleksandar37 said:
No clue. Honestly I don't think many of them have thought it all the way through yet. Politicians get buzz words and they push them out there, but then realize that it might not make sense once reality sinks in. It's more marketing than anything.
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man, I am finding more and more issues to be like that.
 
wow...the situation in virginia is getting even more messy....

governor, LT governor, and now AG are all taking heat.
 
thebigt said:
man, I am finding more and more issues to be like that.
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That's basically what these people running the campaigns are: marketing executives that sell the politician as their product. They all play on emotions and say whatever they want whether or not it's feasible or even true.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
That's basically what these people running the campaigns are: marketing executives that sell the politician as their product. They all play on emotions and say whatever they want whether or not it's feasible or even true.
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metallica...sad but true.

in all honesty I know trump is a phony in many ways, but I am just not ready to become a socialist. plus he know how to tweak my patriotism, and makes democrats seem very unpatriotic-at least to me.
 
thebigt said:
metallica...sad but true.

in all honesty I know trump is a phony in many ways, but I am just not ready to become a socialist. plus he know how to tweak my patriotism, and makes democrats seem very unpatriotic-at least to me.
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well then the marketing is working if you think your only options are Trump or socialism lol. He's not the only one. They all do it. Some just have professional teams doing it for them.
 
thebigt said:
I asked a simple 'hypothetical' question and you go off...geez!!!!



ok, i'm going to take the high road and just chock it up to you being unable to comprehend the question...
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Hypothetical question, what if Xenu comes down to earth and shows you that Jesus wasn’t the Son of God and that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the real messiah?

It’s an asinine, irrelevant question. It doesn’t even warrant a relevant response.

You insult me while simultaneously claiming to take the high road? Some good Christian. You must have an amazing view from that glass house of yours...
 
Aleksandar37 said:
well then the marketing is working if you think your only options are Trump or socialism lol. He's not the only one. They all do it. Some just have professional teams doing it for them.
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This. Trump wasn’t even the most “constitutional” candidate in this past election. As wacky as Gary Johnson was, he is still more of a constitutionalist than Trump. And besides this last election, Rand Paul is more than him, and Ron Paul more than any of them.

People think Bush was more “patriotic” than Obama, but they did largely the same things, just with different justifications to the public. Any president who tries to expand their power and limit their restraints is automatically and inherently going against what America was founded on and what Washington wanted. It doesn’t matter if they’re wearing a red white and blue suit while doing it or not. That’s just PR.
 
thebigt said:
metallica...sad but true.

in all honesty I know trump is a phony in many ways, but I am just not ready to become a socialist. plus he know how to tweak my patriotism, and makes democrats seem very unpatriotic-at least to me.
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Neither am I, that’s why I would never vote for Republicrats either...big lol but dead serious. Dump is only a little less socialist than the typical Demican.
 
ax1 said:
Neither am I, that’s why I would never vote for Republicrats either...big lol but dead serious. Dump is only a little less socialist than the typical Demican.
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This. They’re all two sides of the same coin that all want more power for the central government, and want to exercise more control over the people’s lives, just in slightly different ways with slightly different justifications.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Hypothetical question, what if Xenu comes down to earth and shows you that Jesus wasn’t the Son of God and that the Flying Spaghetti Monster is the real messiah?

It’s an asinine, irrelevant question. It doesn’t even warrant a relevant response.

You insult me while simultaneously claiming to take the high road? Some good Christian. You must have an amazing view from that glass house of yours...
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how many times have you insulted me?

congratulations, you are the winner at insults, hope you feel better now.
 
thebigt said:
lol, do you have ANY morals or values?
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Dude, how many time in this thread have I said that I think people should have the right to do whatever they want so long as they do not infringe on the rights of another to do what they want. Simply because I don’t prescribe to your theological beliefs and dogma does not make me amoral.

I’ve said that late term abortions except in rare cases are reprehensible. I’ve said that people who have multiple DUIs or commit multiple crimes with guns or other violent crimes are terrible and should be in jail for a long time.

Simply beside I don’t believe in Jesus the same way you do means I have no morals or values? Hell, I try to do the right thing even if there is no promise of heaven or threat of hell. Doing the right thing because I think it’s what we are meant to do, our true nature, in Gods image (yes I believe in God, but I don’t know, and does it really matter? I’ll try to do the right thing either way). The reward is to do good and to return to our true nature. But I don’t do it for the promise of heaven or the fear of hell. And I’m the first to admit I’m not perfect and sometimes I don’t follow my own beliefs, but at least I’m not condemning others for not believing and following my chosen set of beliefs.

Look up Stoicism (as in Epictetus and Aurelius); that’s the closest to my philosophy.
 
We agree that late term abortions except in extenuating circumstances are bad. You then compare the idea of abortions period to slavery as if that’s somehow at all relevant. I’m amoral because I don’t believe Jesus is the only way to heaven and I don’t think early term abortions are akin to slavery. Got it...
 
muscleupcrohn said:
We agree that late term abortions except in extenuating circumstances are bad. You then compare the idea of abortions period to slavery as if that’s somehow at all relevant. I’m amoral because I don’t believe Jesus is the only way to heaven and I don’t think early term abortions are akin to slavery. Got it...
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you really don't pay much attention to what others say do you-not a question, a statement.

what I asked you was a hypothetical...do you think that future generations might look back on abortions with the same disdain as present day people look at slavery? there is no comparison other than what is legal today might not be looked at the same in the future...it is even possible future generations might look back at us as barbarians for eating animals, actually this would not surprise me.
 
thebigt said:
you really don't pay much attention to what others say do you-not a question, a statement.

what I asked you was a hypothetical...do you think that future generations might look back on abortions with the same disdain as present day people look at slavery? there is no comparison other than what is legal today might not be looked at the same in the future...it is even possible future generations might look back at us as barbarians for eating animals, actually this would not surprise me.
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It was a hypothetical question geared towards steering the conversation back to where you wanted it so you can argue that all abortions are bad again. We beat the abortion discussion horse into the ground, and all came to something of an agreement that late term abortions are really bad except in some extenuating circumstances. You now want to circle back around to asking if all abortion is bad. You think I’m too stupid to see that? And you still haven’t answered my asinine hypothetical question either, so you’re just as bad as I am. Neither of our hypothetical questions warrant responses.
 
Or another insulting hypothetical question. What if future generations look at today’s religions the same way we now look at Greek and Norse Gods? What if we have Jesus and Krishna on the Avengers in 2119?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
It was a hypothetical question geared towards steering the conversation back to where you wanted it so you can argue that all abortions are bad again. We beat the abortion discussion horse into the ground, and all came to something of an agreement that late term abortions are really bad except in some extenuating circumstances. You now want to circle back around to asking if all abortion is bad. You think I’m too stupid to see that? And you still haven’t answered my asinine hypothetical question either, so you’re just as bad as I am. Neither of our hypothetical questions warrant responses.
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no, actually I thought it was a thought provoking question that was interesting to ponder...no matter what your view on abortion, a procedure that hasn't changed much in your lifetime will probably be looked at as barbaric in 50 years as fast as medicine and technology is advancing...
lol, you mean your question about jesus and the spaceship? that is interesting as technically jesus would be considered a hybrid alien since his father is not of this world.
 
thebigt said:
no, actually I thought it was a thought provoking question that was interesting to ponder...no matter what your view on abortion, a procedure that hasn't changed much in your lifetime will probably be looked at as barbaric in 50 years as fast as medicine and technology is advancing...
lol, you mean your question about jesus and the spaceship? that is interesting as technically jesus would be considered a hybrid alien since his father is not of this world.
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So you went from asking a hypothetical question to giving us the answer to said question?

And that wasn’t my question. You perverted it so you could a give a “smart” answer that didn’t actually address the real question.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Or another insulting hypothetical question. What if future generations look at today’s religions the same way we now look at Greek and Norse Gods? What if we have Jesus and Krishna on the Avengers in 2119?
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unfortunately the majority of people your age already view religion as a joke....better question-what if future generations become believers?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
So you went from asking a hypothetical question to giving us the answer to said question?

And that wasn’t my question. You perverted it so you could a give a “smart” answer that didn’t actually address the real question.
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lol...you give me too much credit--you are the smart guy, right?
 
thebigt said:
unfortunately the majority of people your age already view religion as a joke....better question-what if future generations become believers?
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If they are believers, and more importantly, FOLLOWERS of the TEACHINGS of Jesus, then the world would be a better place. But I can say the same of Hinduism and Buddhism. I can’t tell you what will happen or who will be right after we die in this life, but I can say that if even most people truly follow any of these religions, then the world would be a lot closer to heaven than we could even imagine. Gandhi had a deep respect for the teachings of Jesus, as does the Dalai Lama. All I desire is for more Christians to respect other faiths, and we can all at least be good to each other while we are on this earth. Can we agree to that?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
If they are believers, and more importantly, FOLLOWERS of the TEACHINGS of Jesus, then the world would be a better place. But I can say the same of Hinduism and Buddhism. I can’t tell you what will happen or who will be right after we die in this life, but I can say that if even most people truly follow any of these religions, then the world would be a lot closer to heaven than we could even imagine. Gandhi had a deep respect for the teachings of Jesus, as does the Dalai Lama. All I desire is for more Christians to respect other faiths, and we can all at least be good to each other while we are on this earth. Can we agree to that?
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of course...I think the premise of all religions is one of peace and brotherhood. it is man who has[is]corrupted religion.

it is not by accident that even if faking it a man wanting early parole from prison will claim finding religion. people consider this becoming a better person, even though those same people may not be believers themselves, they still see the value in religion.
 
thebigt said:
of course...I think the premise of all religions is one of peace and brotherhood. it is man who has[is]corrupted religion.

it is not by accident that even if faking it a man wanting early parole from prison will claim finding religion. people consider this becoming a better person, even though those same people may not be believers themselves, they still see the value in religion.
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Yeah, I just think that there’s a major difference between claiming to follow a religion and actually living it. For example, a priest who molests kids is no follower of Christ, no matter how much they studied their Bible or how often they go to church.

Epictetus said that when we see someone who claims to be a carpenter unable to use a hammer, we don’t say that carpentry is useless, we say that this man is no carpenter. But in the case of philosophy, or religion, when we see a hypocrite we are quick to say that the religion is useless, when what we should be saying is that the hypocrite is not actually a follower of said religion.

I really respect you for the first paragraph of your post, and I completely agree. Let us celebrate this common ground in an important matter. Enjoy the rest of your day/night!
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Yeah, I just think that there’s a major difference between claiming to follow a religion and actually living it. For example, a priest who molests kids is no follower of Christ, no matter how much they studied their Bible or how often they go to church.

Epictetus said that when we see someone who claims to be a carpenter unable to use a hammer, we don’t say that carpentry is useless, we say that this man is no carpenter. But in the case of philosophy, or religion, when we see a hypocrite we are quick to say that the religion is useless, when what we should be saying is that the hypocrite is not actually a follower of said religion.

I really respect you for the first paragraph of your post, and I completely agree. Let us celebrate this common ground in an important matter. Enjoy the rest of your day/night!
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peace brother
 
thebigt said:
no, actually I thought it was a thought provoking question that was interesting to ponder...no matter what your view on abortion, a procedure that hasn't changed much in your lifetime will probably be looked at as barbaric in 50 years as fast as medicine and technology is advancing...
lol, you mean your question about jesus and the spaceship? that is interesting as technically jesus would be considered a hybrid alien since his father is not of this world.
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I dont think its a great comparison....slavery was easily replaced with modernization and cheap labor forces....With abortions as long as women get pregnant there will be always a need and a fight to protect that right. Also abortions account for victimization as to where slave owners were only victims of their own assholness.
 
ax1 said:
I dont think its a great comparison....slavery was easily replaced with modernization and cheap labor forces....With abortions as long as women get pregnant there will be always a need and a fight to protect that right. Also abortions account for victimization as to where slave owners were only victims of their own assholness.
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you ever hear of something called THE CIVIL WAR? as morally repugnant as we find slavery today, once upon a time this country was divided on the legality of slavery...my point was who is to say what the attitude towards abortion will be in 160years?



have you ever heard of a lobotomy? as recently as 1967 this was a legal treatment for psychological illnesses-jfk's sister had a lobotomy.....just wanted to illustrate how far and fast the medical profession has and can advance-in 50 years I am sure medicine will have advanced enough to make today's abortion procedure look as barbaric as a lobotomy looks to us today....
 
thebigt said:
you ever hear of something called THE CIVIL WAR? as morally repugnant as we find slavery today, once upon a time this country was divided on the legality of slavery...my point was who is to say what the attitude towards abortion will be in 160years?



have you ever heard of a lobotomy? as recently as 1967 this was a legal treatment for psychological illnesses-jfk's sister had a lobotomy.....just wanted to illustrate how far and fast the medical profession has and can advance-in 50 years I am sure medicine will have advanced enough to make today's abortion procedure look as barbaric as a lobotomy looks to us today....
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Except unless we have a foolproof 100% effective way to keep every women from getting pregnant, which means not only a 100% effective birth control method, but also 100% of people on it, abortions will be a thing on some level. And even then, we’d also have to eliminate all major, debilitating illnesses/diseases/etc. that could happen during pregnancy that would result in the baby being born in excruciating pain with a short life or with no brain function at all, as these rare instances account for some abortions as well. I don’t doubt that the procedure can be improved, but abortions themself, for one reason or another, aren’t going away completely in either of our lifetimes. I can all but guarantee you of that. In fact, I’d bet money on it.
 
thebigt said:
you ever hear of something called THE CIVIL WAR? as morally repugnant as we find slavery today, once upon a time this country was divided on the legality of slavery...my point was who is to say what the attitude towards abortion will be in 160years?



have you ever heard of a lobotomy? as recently as 1967 this was a legal treatment for psychological illnesses-jfk's sister had a lobotomy.....just wanted to illustrate how far and fast the medical profession has and can advance-in 50 years I am sure medicine will have advanced enough to make today's abortion procedure look as barbaric as a lobotomy looks to us today....
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So you're saying laser abortions would be ok...joking! I totally get what you're saying and it's easy to look back on things that were done and judge them from here, but I personally don't think the exercise of hypotheticals is productive. The only solid answer is "maybe" and it takes away from dealing with the current situation.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Except unless we have a foolproof 100% effective way to keep every women from getting pregnant, which means not only a 100% effective birth control method, but also 100% of people on it, abortions will be a thing on some level. And even then, we’d also have to eliminate all major, debilitating illnesses/diseases/etc. that could happen during pregnancy that would result in the baby being born in excruciating pain with a short life or with no brain function at all, as these rare instances account for some abortions as well. I don’t doubt that the procedure can be improved, but abortions themself, for one reason or another, aren’t going away completely in either of our lifetimes. I can all but guarantee you of that. In fact, I’d bet money on it.
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as I said before the abortion procedure hasn't changed much in your lifetime....look how far medicine has evolved since the 60's when lobotomy was a legal procedure.



I can all but guarantee that if technology continues to advance as fast as it has in last 20 years there will be much better alternatives in the next 20 years....if you think hard about it, abortion procedures are pretty darned barbaric.
 
thebigt said:
as I said before the abortion procedure hasn't changed much in your lifetime....look how far medicine has evolved since the 60's when lobotomy was a legal procedure.



I can all but guarantee that if technology continues to advance as fast as it has in last 20 years there will be much better alternatives in the next 20 years....if you think hard about it, abortion procedures are pretty darned barbaric.
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So you’re saying that the METHOD of abortion will be viewed negatively, not the INHERENT CONCEPT of abortion, which is almost assured to outlive both of us for the reasons I’ve already highlighted? I can agree to that much.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
So you're saying laser abortions would be ok...joking! I totally get what you're saying and it's easy to look back on things that were done and judge them from here, but I personally don't think the exercise of hypotheticals is productive. The only solid answer is "maybe" and it takes away from dealing with the current situation.
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it isn't hypothetical to think that in 20 years medicine will be totally different than today if it continues to evolve at the rate it has in the past 20 years...geez, they didn't even know about hep c and aids back in the 70's, and now they have treatment/cures.
 
thebigt said:
it isn't hypothetical to think that in 20 years medicine will be totally different than today if it continues to evolve at the rate it has in the past 20 years...geez, they didn't even know about hep c and aids back in the 70's, and now they have treatment/cures.
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Read my post and tell me how we could feasibly remedy the two issues that lead to abortions. Improved methods of abortion, sure, but it’d still exist in some way. Please actually address my points instead of just pointing to unrelated examples of improvements in medicine.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
So you’re saying that the METHOD of abortion will be viewed negatively, not the INHERENT CONCEPT of abortion, which is almost assured to outlive both of us for the reasons I’ve already highlighted? I can agree to that much.
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how can I possibly know what will be the future...what I can predict is that as divisive as the abortion procedure of today is they will come up with better solutions….who knows in the future there might be forced sterilization to halt population growth.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Read my post and tell me how we could feasibly remedy the two issues that lead to abortions. Improved methods of abortion, sure, but it’d still exist in some way. Please actually address my points instead of just pointing to unrelated examples of improvements in medicine.
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lol...I wasn't responding to your post.
 
thebigt said:
you ever hear of something called THE CIVIL WAR? as morally repugnant as we find slavery today, once upon a time this country was divided on the legality of slavery...my point was who is to say what the attitude towards abortion will be in 160years?



have you ever heard of a lobotomy? as recently as 1967 this was a legal treatment for psychological illnesses-jfk's sister had a lobotomy.....just wanted to illustrate how far and fast the medical profession has and can advance-in 50 years I am sure medicine will have advanced enough to make today's abortion procedure look as barbaric as a lobotomy looks to us today....
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Yeah sure I heard about the Civil War, but Lincoln wasn’t anti-slavery, that was just a big federal government power grab for economic reasons and centralization of control.

I know well about lobotomy’s but that wasn’t and individual choice but rather someone else’s forcing it upon someone. Nobody is forcing people to get abortions and the circumstances are completely unrelated.
 
thebigt said:
how can I possibly know what will be the future...what I can predict is that as divisive as the abortion procedure of today is they will come up with better solutions….who knows in the future there might be forced sterilization to halt population growth.
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If you actually think that forced sterilization, depriving entire populations of their natural “God-given” rights, is somehow morally or ethically superior to (non-late-term) abortions, then I really don’t even want to continue this conversation.
 
Aleksandar37 said:
So you're saying laser abortions would be ok...joking! I totally get what you're saying and it's easy to look back on things that were done and judge them from here, but I personally don't think the exercise of hypotheticals is productive. The only solid answer is "maybe" and it takes away from dealing with the current situation.
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Hypothetically what if in 50 years population goes out of hand globally and every government has a 0-1 child policy and increases abortions dramatically by force like they already do in China and more people accept it as norm?...scenarios are just endless.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
So you’re saying that the METHOD of abortion will be viewed negatively, not the INHERENT CONCEPT of abortion, which is almost assured to outlive both of us for the reasons I’ve already highlighted? I can agree to that much.
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ok, how is this for food for thought....instead of abortion, in the future they are capable of removing embryo/fetus from the womb and growing the future baby outside the womb---with no responsibility put on the woman...you have to consider all kinds of things could be possible in 20 years-you of all people should realize this.
 
ax1 said:
Yeah sure I heard about the Civil War, but Lincoln wasn’t anti-slavery, that was just a big federal government power grab for economic reasons and centralization of control.

I know well about lobotomy’s but that wasn’t and individual choice but rather someone else’s forcing it upon someone. Nobody is forcing people to get abortions and the circumstances are completely unrelated.
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This. In before “a fetus is a person” (read the links I posted that discuss the Bible on abortion). At some point, yes, but sometimes that fetus would kill the mother, or would be born in excruciating pain with no life expectancy or brain activity, and in those cases I don’t see abortion going away entirely.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
If you actually think that forced sterilization, depriving entire populations of their natural “God-given” rights, is somehow morally or ethically superior to (non-late-term) abortions, then I really don’t even want to continue this conversation.
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whoa, nelly...I didn't say I agreed with this...what I said is the government might make it mandatory-who knows what shape the worlds population might be in 20 years from now? it might be so bad they are forced to make drastic changes for survival?
 
thebigt said:
how can I possibly know what will be the future...what I can predict is that as divisive as the abortion procedure of today is they will come up with better solutions….who knows in the future there might be forced sterilization to halt population growth.
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I thought the whole concept of anti-abortion people were the immorality of murdering of babies? How does advancement in procedures make anti-abortion people feel any different when the end result is still murder?
 
thebigt said:
it isn't hypothetical to think that in 20 years medicine will be totally different than today if it continues to evolve at the rate it has in the past 20 years...geez, they didn't even know about hep c and aids back in the 70's, and now they have treatment/cures.
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That wasn't the hypothetical you asked about. You asked what peoples' retrospective views on abortion will be in the future. Of course medical technology will continue to evolve, despite Republican attempts to stop it.
 
thebigt said:
whoa, nelly...I didn't say I agreed with this...what I said is the government might make it mandatory-who knows what shape the worlds population might be in 20 years from now? it might be so bad they are forced to make drastic changes for survival?
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If we replace abortion with something far, far worse, then the least of our problems will be a retrospective on abortion man. You keep stretching your hypothetical question to insane proportions to keep it alive.
 
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