does god exist

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You, have no faith in the scriptures, obviously.

Wait. What scriptures? Bible?
This is just my belief, but bible has nothing to do with God. And you have no proof otherwise. And why do I need bible at all, if I can ask what I need straight from the source, God?

Ok, time to get some sleep, I'm gonna be at the ocean for the next few day, probably having too much fun to post here. :woohoo: Have a good one, all. :)
 
It's all about justice. Indeed, what an awesome God.

Every action a person takes is understood by that person to be the right action, given what they seek and desire.
By your definition, what they seek and desire is wrong. But by their definition, it is not. You may not agree with their model of the world, with their moral and ethical construction, with their theological understanding, nor with their decisions, choices and actions... but they agree with them, based on their values.
You call their values "wrong". But who is to say your values are "right"? Only you.

The problem is that so many people insist on thinking that the values they now have are the right and the prefect ones, and that everyone else should adhere to them. Some people have become self-justified and self righteous.

Ok, gotta go. :)
 
Every action a person takes is understood by that person to be the right action, given what they seek and desire.
By your definition, what they seek and desire is wrong. But by their definition, it is not. You may not agree with their model of the world, with their moral and ethical construction, with their theological understanding, nor with their decisions, choices and actions... but they agree with them, based on their values.
You call their values "wrong". But who is to say your values are "right"? Only you.

The problem is that so many people insist on thinking that the values they now have are the right and the prefect ones, and that everyone else should adhere to them. Some people have become self-justified and self righteous.

Ok, gotta go. :)
I really think self-justified and self-righteous are the wrong words here. I'm sure of what I believe, because of what the scriptures say. Not simply because I think I'm right. I think I'm right, because the bible tells me so. lol

Anyway, have fun at the ocean man. Ought to be nice! Safe travels!
 
oz, where did satan come from? and also who created the angels?

also where exactly did god come from, did he just appear one day out of nothing? who created the creator?

Every notice how the Christian Satan bears a striking resemblance to both Pan and the Egyptian god Set (I believe it was Set could be wrong there)?

They both were worshiped well before Christianity
 
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And man, I gotta admit, there are some things that I can't wrap my mind around. Like where did God come from. It's hard to imagine God going on infinitely both backward and forward in time. I know I can't fathom it. These types of things, while not comprehendable to the human mind, these things are to be revealed to us in eternity.

Actually it's simple just imagine that time is a place rather than a moment. It is a concept that must be understood prior to attempting astral projection.
 
Humans aren't capable of having the knowledge of right and wrong, and avoiding wrong. Even if a person was a Christian and had the knowledge of salvation and what their purpose was under God, then I don't believe that they would be at all capable of avoiding sin. In our human condition, it just isn't feasible.

I'm not very familiar with divination, so I cannot comment.

So then I would not know it is wrong to commit rape or rob a liquor store?

Most common forms of divination are tarot, also attempting to connect with the other side may be considered a form of divination.
 
Satan was originally an angel. He thought himself greater than God, and was cast down from heaven into the depths of hell. I don't know that I've read this, but I'd imagine God created the angels, with the monotheistic view of Christianity, who else would there be!?

And man, I gotta admit, there are some things that I can't wrap my mind around. Like where did God come from. It's hard to imagine God going on infinitely both backward and forward in time. I know I can't fathom it. These types of things, while not comprehendable to the human mind, these things are to be revealed to us in eternity.

I heard a recording of a Christian man who describes a vision he had in which he was cast down into hell as a non-believer. It's a very interesting listen. In it, he talks about being able to know and understand things that just aren't to be grasped by human minds. Man, I'll see if I can find this online and link it here.. it's worth listening to imo.

I think a vision could count as divination, I am pretty sure that it says somewhere in bible that is a no-no.
 
Life itself and our souls are all about progress, so if you are human being right now, you will never become something smaller. BTW, religion doesn't believe in reincarnation. You get only one shot at life and that's it. It wouldn't benefit church to tell people you live multiple lives, because people wouldn't be so scared, (if screwed up in this life you can fix it in the next life).

Perhaps some religions do not believe in re-incarnation, but not all.
 
Jesus had to be sacrificed in order for justice to be served. The sins of man, and the disobedience of man to God was something that had to be atoned for. Jesus was the only acceptable sacrifice to accomplish this. I don't believe that the resurrection and the consequent ascension into heaven make Christ's death trivial. Everything happened according to prophecy.

How do we not know that Jesus didn't just come along and tell everyone hey lets all just get along? Here I'll turn this water into wine lets have a party. Then everyone got scared killed him so that could say whatever they want.
Mankind's capacity for deceit is infinite.
 
I think a vision could count as divination, I am pretty sure that it says somewhere in bible that is a no-no.
Yes it is a no-no. I've had that chat w/ DmitryWI before. His god isn't the God of the Bible as his words and belief system are at odds with the Word. His choice, as it is a choice that is presented to all.
 
Originally, life was perfect here. He created humans, and put them on earth (angels are in heaven, humans are different, and we reside someplace different). Then, the first 2, Adam and Eve, were deceived by satan, they screwed up, and it damned the rest of creation.
doesnt this make god vengeful? Not a truly perfect characteristic imo.

also, my othber issue with religions is tha their texts are written by man, and therefore have been jaded over time, and possible 180 degress different from its original intentions
 
What do you mean? I've used the logic card several times, as far as I know anyway.

Maybe its just on me because of how I feel about religion.. It does seem that you are trying to go about it all in as logical of a manner as you can, but from my vantage point on the subject, the overall belief in god as a creator and a supreme being that has an absolute rule over all things human (and apparently only humans, excluding all other life forms) seems to defy everything I would consider logic or reasoning. It can never be seen, it can never be felt, it has never been proven. Everything behind it is filled with a million questions. Logic tells ME that what has zero chance of being proven, has zero chance of being true, and until someone can convince me that theres even a chance it can be proven, MY logic will continue to tell me religion is illogical.

Now on the other hand, the people who believe that god is everything surrounding us, and that god is in all of us... I cant dispute that, because that is just their belief. It cant be proven right, and it cant be proven wrong. But thats more of a belief that is just giving a name (of god) to something that is absolute. Everything is made of energy. Fact. They are just giving energy the name of god. That makes more sense to me. The bible just doesnt make sense to me. It just tells you to have faith, and blindly obey based on that faith. It requires you to believe everything it says, but then people always fight over what it actually says. I dont know, just how I see it.
 
Maybe its just on me because of how I feel about religion.. It does seem that you are trying to go about it all in as logical of a manner as you can, but from my vantage point on the subject, the overall belief in god as a creator and a supreme being that has an absolute rule over all things human (and apparently only humans, excluding all other life forms) seems to defy everything I would consider logic or reasoning. It can never be seen, it can never be felt, it has never been proven. Everything behind it is filled with a million questions. Logic tells ME that what has zero chance of being proven, has zero chance of being true, and until someone can convince me that theres even a chance it can be proven, MY logic will continue to tell me religion is illogical.

Now on the other hand, the people who believe that god is everything surrounding us, and that god is in all of us... I cant dispute that, because that is just their belief. It cant be proven right, and it cant be proven wrong. But thats more of a belief that is just giving a name (of god) to something that is absolute. Everything is made of energy. Fact. They are just giving energy the name of god. That makes more sense to me. The bible just doesnt make sense to me. It just tells you to have faith, and blindly obey based on that faith. It requires you to believe everything it says, but then people always fight over what it actually says. I dont know, just how I see it.
I can see how one would think the whole idea of faith and such illogical. Truly, it cannot be proven. I believe however, and this is based on truth I've found in scripture. It makes sense to me. In my mind, while it cannot be proven, the argument that God exists jives with me just fine. Maybe (assuming the existence of God) I am simply meant to believe, and think that logic isn't always everything.

Sorry if my reply is unclear.
 
doesnt this make god vengeful? Not a truly perfect characteristic imo.

also, my othber issue with religions is tha their texts are written by man, and therefore have been jaded over time, and possible 180 degress different from its original intentions
I don't think it makes him vengeful. God won't allow injustice, it's in His nature to be fully just. To let people off with no consequence for the wrong they've done just doesn't equate to justice.
 
1. I read many spiritual books, I know many people who are spiritual teacher and who can freely communicate with God, I can myself communicate with God to some degree through meditation too. (Every person has the ability to do so, but again bible doesn't teach how. Do I need to tell you why?) This is how I find out the truth for myself. I don't understand how can someone claim they know all the truth if they read nothing but bible.

2. There's no such thing as sin. What is "sin"? Wrong doing against other human being? You tell me. Something church came up with to keep people guilty and therefor in fear? God can not get hurt or offended, but many people get hurt and offended on behalf of God. Look at T-Bones post. Perfect example.

3. Lol It doesn't. Just because religion teaches that, doesn't make it true.


There have been a lot of good post since I last posted yesterday, and I am going to try to address as many of them as I can in this post real quick. I have a busy schedule today and I don't know if I will be able to participate here much today.

Concerning whether or not a stillborn child or infant or young child dying and the fate of their soul. Many of you have this picture of God as being this giant prick who is just looking to smite people at the first opportunity. In my Bible I read that God is love, and this is the core of Jesus' life and teachings. While we are all born with a predisposition to often choose our interest over others, and choosing wrong over right, young children are pretty innocent in that they don't know any better. Outside of the Catholic church, and I think they have backed off of this, a child that has died has done nothing to deserve damnation and goes to be with God.

Speaking of the Catholic church it does not make the rules for every Christian. There was a little incident known as the Protestant Reformation that broke the church, and as a result many Christians do not really give two craps about the Pope or any other Catholic institution or ideal. The Bible is clear that man needs no other mediator between Him and God since Jesus wiped away our sins. This too touches on some theology that I don't have the time to get into right now.

Maverick, concerning your post about knowledge and faith. Faith does not have to be blind faith. My faith is based on what Jesus did on the cross, which I read about in the Bible. My faith is based on what has transpired since then in my life personally, as well as other natural revelations concerning God. Do I know for sure that Jesus is the Savior? No, but I am not ignorant of what He did, and I choose to put my trust in what He did. Does that make sense? When I wrote about ignorance of the Gospel, I meant in the case of someone who had never heard of Jesus death and resurrection before. I hope this helps.

Bigironkiller. Yes man brought sin into the world, but he didn't have to, he chose to. God also gave him to tools to not bring sin into the world. Jesus already died for sins, and when He returns it will be to rid creation of the source of all sin (which is not mankind).

Bryan, the scripture that you mentioned sounds like Old Testament Jewish Law. I imagine that scripture is found in either Deuteronomy or Leviticus, but I do not know for sure and I don't have the time to look at the moment. Regardless if this scripture is in the Bible, it is definately going to be a part of Jewish Law. After the Exodus from Egypt the Jews became a theocracy, and they had very strict laws concerning diet, religion, etc. If this was a law understand it applied to ancient Jews, not Christians or even modern day Jews.

Bigironkiller. Concerning your question about ignorance and faith. I believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus, even though I didn't personally witness it. I don't see how this makes me ignorant of anything else though.

Dmitri, were you ever a part of the church? It seems as though you have had some experiences either with your family or some other exposure. Regardless it has left you pretty bitter and with little understanding of Christianity.

Again the Bible does not discourage communication with God. Jesus constantly tells us to pray, as He did.

What is sin? It is essentially anything short of the perfect righteousness of God. Sin not only hurts us but it hurts the people around us. Murder, war, rape, politicians:aargh:, these are all the byproducts of sin. I would love to hear your ideas on good and evil.

No one needs to live in fear of God, I don't. If we are all God then was Hitler, Sadaam Hussein, Jeffrey Dahmer, were they all God too? Does Ghandi and Mother Theresa have to rub elbows with these guys for all eternity?

I don't claim to know all of the answers, and I don't just read the Bible, but it seems that you are certainly sure of your beliefs, so why is it better that you are sure of your beliefs but it is bad that me and Oz are sure of ours?

That is all I have for now, hopefully I can come back to this thread later.
 
I don't think it makes him vengeful. God won't allow injustice, it's in His nature to be fully just. To let people off with no consequence for the wrong they've done just doesn't equate to justice.
I dont disagree with your thoughts, but in essense that is still vengeful, which does make sense, as we as people were created in his, hers, its image
 
There are no 100% infallable proofs pro or con, that will make people believe.

I wish there was though.

(This is from someone(me) who was raised in church, and was attending a well known seminary untill the money ran out)
 
i wasnt calling you ignorant dadof2, sorry if it came off that way. i was trying to point out that with faith as with all other things you cant be 100% sure, and the ignorance of the spiritual equates to faith. what you dont know is ignorance, and faith fills the gap
 
I went from being in public schools and grew up being Christian, to be put into private and Catholic schools, and went from being agnostic to atheist. I'm now agnostic again due to many different reasons. I almost got killed in a car accident, could've gone to prison, could've lost all rights to my baby boy, etc. Something is definitely on my side. Most likely destiny and fate.

I'm also cool with whatever people wanna believe. So long as it makes them happy. I don't like having religious beliefs pushed on me either.
 
Actually, the bible speaks of people having visions in a neutral way.

So those would be then visions of the future, right? So then that would be essentially fortune telling, right? So it is permissible for you to see a fortune teller? Seems like the same thing to me, aside from the fact most fortune teller's are frauds.
 
That's simply a matter of your own opinion. If you apply logic and reasoning, it's clear that justice is a very viable reason.

Ok then, the supposed "justice for disobeying is to go to hell and burn forever. So keeping that in mind we are God's children, say someone murders your daughter just because they feel like it. Do you believe you would be right to burn off all their flesh with a propane torch?
 
doesnt this make god vengeful? Not a truly perfect characteristic imo.

also, my othber issue with religions is tha their texts are written by man, and therefore have been jaded over time, and possible 180 degress different from its original intentions

I don't have any conclusive evidence one way or the other because I haven't experienced it, but some religions (including Wicca) the Priest or whatever you wish to call the person leading the ritual engages in channeling to convey the creators wishes. I have not done this myself so for all I know it could be a hoax, however you are encouraged to learn to do this for yourself so I would think that if it was bs then a lot of people would know this and expose it.
This doesn't really apply to Christianity but just a thought.
 
Bryan, the scripture that you mentioned sounds like Old Testament Jewish Law. I imagine that scripture is found in either Deuteronomy or Leviticus, but I do not know for sure and I don't have the time to look at the moment. Regardless if this scripture is in the Bible, it is definately going to be a part of Jewish Law. After the Exodus from Egypt the Jews became a theocracy, and they had very strict laws concerning diet, religion, etc. If this was a law understand it applied to ancient Jews, not Christians or even modern day Jews.

Honestly I am not sure, I heard it somewhere perhaps it was Catholic school. Question for you do you believe that you must attend Church every Sunday or do you practice on your own? I guess a big part of my issue with Christianity is if God is all powerful why does he need us to worship him. That seems somewhat egotistical, worship me or burn in hell or some other punishment.
I however do not believe there is anything wrong with what you believe in, we all need something to help grow. The way you go about practicing your religion is different from the way I practice mine but in the end I believe it has the same end result.
 
Ok then, the supposed "justice for disobeying is to go to hell and burn forever. So keeping that in mind we are God's children, say someone murders your daughter just because they feel like it. Do you believe you would be right to burn off all their flesh with a propane torch?
I've done wrong before in my life. It wouldn't be my place to punish another for their wrongdoing.
 
Honestly I am not sure, I heard it somewhere perhaps it was Catholic school. Question for you do you believe that you must attend Church every Sunday or do you practice on your own? I guess a big part of my issue with Christianity is if God is all powerful why does he need us to worship him. That seems somewhat egotistical, worship me or burn in hell or some other punishment.
I however do not believe there is anything wrong with what you believe in, we all need something to help grow. The way you go about practicing your religion is different from the way I practice mine but in the end I believe it has the same end result.

Nowhere in the Bible does anyone say that church attendence is mandatory or compulsory. I have just recently started attending church (about a year now) after being a Christian for nearly a decade. In my case it was an issue finding a good church to go to where I wouldn't be spiritually manipulated or gossiped about. It is a shame to say, but the vast majority of American churches are spiritually bankrupt.

The only reason I go to church is to learn, and to be with the other members of our church, to see them and eat with my friends and so forth.

The first churches met in order to learn, teach, and support one another as being a Christian in first century Rome (or as a Jew which many first Christians were) was very hard and people would lose their social standing and ability to earn a living. Church never was about some obligation to pay homage to God. This is what church was and should be. It is good for people to have fellowship, and learn, and be spiritually fed. That is a lot different than the modern idea of spiritual manipulation that most people experience in todays church.

God is everywhere, and anyone at anytime can approach Him because of the work of Jesus. The Church, and organized religion are two totally different things. The Church is the reference to the earthly body of Christ (every Christian), where organized religion is a totally different, man-made, and often miserable thing.

I totally understand people being put off by the church, organized religion, and even some well meaning, and not so well meaning Christians. The hypocrisy and holier than thou attitudes are sickening, and this is why I had such a hard time finding a church to attend. But all of that stuff is all about man, and Christianity is all about Jesus, there is a world of difference between the two.
 
Nowhere in the Bible does anyone say that church attendence is mandatory or compulsory. I have just recently started attending church (about a year now) after being a Christian for nearly a decade. In my case it was an issue finding a good church to go to where I wouldn't be spiritually manipulated or gossiped about. It is a shame to say, but the vast majority of American churches are spiritually bankrupt.

The only reason I go to church is to learn, and to be with the other members of our church, to see them and eat with my friends and so forth.

The first churches met in order to learn, teach, and support one another as being a Christian in first century Rome (or as a Jew which many first Christians were) was very hard and people would lose their social standing and ability to earn a living. Church never was about some obligation to pay homage to God. This is what church was and should be. It is good for people to have fellowship, and learn, and be spiritually fed. That is a lot different than the modern idea of spiritual manipulation that most people experience in todays church.

God is everywhere, and anyone at anytime can approach Him because of the work of Jesus. The Church, and organized religion are two totally different things. The Church is the reference to the earthly body of Christ (every Christian), where organized religion is a totally different, man-made, and often miserable thing.

I totally understand people being put off by the church, organized religion, and even some well meaning, and not so well meaning Christians. The hypocrisy and holier than thou attitudes are sickening, and this is why I had such a hard time finding a church to attend. But all of that stuff is all about man, and Christianity is all about Jesus, there is a world of difference between the two.

I can respect that, when growing up I was pretty much told go to church every Sunday or go to hell. A bit of a turn off there. I attend a ritual for my religion once every new moon full moon and the 8 festivals but I only attend to learn, to better myself to grow spiritually. If it was only about worshiping deity then I would probably stop attending. The give and take relationship is what I get when I go as well as the socialization.
So it seems that we attend services at our respective religions for similar reasons.
 
I went to catholic school for 6 years. One day i had this book when in like 4th or 5th grade and it was about evolution. One of the nuns saw it and was telling me that it was only a story and it was n't true. I argued with her I was dumbfounded at the time that anybody would deny evolution. In my experience, every single nun Ive ever met was evil. I was told i was going to hell and would be in jail when I grew up. What kind of **** is that to tell a little kid? Needless to say iIm not catholic anymore
 
I went to catholic school for 6 years. One day i had this book when in like 4th or 5th grade and it was about evolution. One of the nuns saw it and was telling me that it was only a story and it was n't true. I argued with her I was dumbfounded at the time that anybody would deny evolution. In my experience, every single nun Ive ever met was evil. I was told i was going to hell and would be in jail when I grew up. What kind of **** is that to tell a little kid? Needless to say iIm not catholic anymore

Same here every last one was a miserable, dis-gruntled *****. Well except for one.
 
I notice that plenty of people who identify themselves as atheist, agnostic, or even non-Christian are people who were born into Catholic tradition.

It says a lot about how screwed up organized religion is. You cannot be coerced into saving faith, yet the machine needs a steady stream of new members to keep the money coming in. Its quite tragic.
 
seems like alot of people are bringing up the inaccuracies of the bible becasue of the influences of man. and some say believe in god, but not per say religion. so in continuation what if god really doesnt require you to accept him into your life, and loves you for who you are, but as pointed out, man made that a stipulation.
 
what would the believers say, if a version of the bible surfaced that claimed god gave all humans entrance into heaven, without the pretence of belief?? what if when jesus died, that ensured all humans a place in heaven??
 
what would the believers say, if a version of the bible surfaced that claimed god gave all humans entrance into heaven, without the pretence of belief?? what if when jesus died, that ensured all humans a place in heaven??

That would be nice but I would not abandon my current beliefs and follow Christianity. Also that is a change by man so I would not give it much merit, just the church trying to get new members by being more flexible.
 
what would the believers say, if a version of the bible surfaced that claimed god gave all humans entrance into heaven, without the pretence of belief?? what if when jesus died, that ensured all humans a place in heaven??

where's the $$$ in that? church's are in the business of selling faith by promoting fear and with that comes power and control.

as there is with fast food there is fast religion, catholic churches and a lot of the other established ones are just like mc d's, bk, kfc and all the rest, they just sell different products but the convienience factor is still the same.

or you could say churches are like car washes, every sunday you can have your sins washed away and start fresh only to dirty up again the following week and keep repeating the cycle.
 
thats what im trying to say. what if there really is a god, and we are all assuered a place in heaven even without believing. i know how corrupt the churches are. i just wanted to see what people would say about everyone getting into heaven regaurdless.
 
seems like alot of people are bringing up the inaccuracies of the bible becasue of the influences of man. and some say believe in god, but not per say religion. so in continuation what if god really doesnt require you to accept him into your life, and loves you for who you are, but as pointed out, man made that a stipulation.

My opinion is that we all have the same God just different ways of connecting with the creator. You call it God I call it Astarte.
 
thats what im trying to say. what if there really is a god, and we are all assuered a place in heaven even without believing. i know how corrupt the churches are. i just wanted to see what people would say about everyone getting into heaven regaurdless.

there's an admission fee with big burly bouncers waiting to throw you to club hell if you don't pay, the drinks are bad, there's no AC and the music sucks down there, no pay no play at club heaven my friend!
 

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I don't know about the rest of you but I can't say I would want to spend all eternity in heaven. At some point I think you would run out of things to do, at which point heaven would be more like hell.
 
speaking of jesus and his return to earth, with all the scepticism do you think it would even be possible in this day and age that people believe that christ truly has returned. you always here of people claiming to be christ but they are immediatley labled as nuts or cult leaders. what if christ does return and no one believes it him???
 
speaking of Jesus and his return to earth, with all the skepticism do you think it would even be possible in this day and age that people believe that Christ truly has returned. you always here of people claiming to be Christ but they are immediately labeled as nuts or cult leaders. what if Christ does return and no one believes it him???

Our government would probably hide him under the pentagon and dissect him.
 
speaking of which, what ever happened to jesus? he came back to life on easter sunday after dying on the friday so where did he go after that? :think:
 
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