does god exist

[AE14]

man I go to sleep for a night and miss the whole thread. Has anyone taken a look at what i mentioned a few pages back about the councils of nicea and hippo regarding the formation of christian doctrine? It might shed a little light on a "divinely" inspired material.

also, well done fellas. very respectful tone and arguments here

 

[Nabisco]

Illusion of free will in this aspect I guess.

This is what the scripture says. Now, you tell me, why on earth would people who want to keep people in the faith and in fear of hell leave this in the scriptures, or add it in the scriptures? That wouldn't be very productive for attendance I don't think.

Understand that back in the centuries that are being referred to, not many people had access to the Bible. It was holy scripture and books were a rarity among common people. The church itself announced Doctrines that the people were led to believe were all part of the Bible, for instance Reparations (correct word?). Pay the church and your sins will be forgiven.

 

[AE14]

also keep in mind how many people could not read back then. muchb of the propaganda from the church came in the form of art, hence all the catholic art during the reformation.

it is all sadly big business

 

[joeymutz]

For any of those really interested in discovering if God exists..

If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you." 2 Chronicles18:2

I had my doubts at one time. It is easy to be a non believer. I read this and then decided to try and find God. I did.

Please elaborate or how you "found" god?

 

[joeymutz]

I must say i honestly feel bad for all the people that have been brain washed by religion, What happens when you die and there is no heaven. You lived your entire life in fear of being sent to hell then bam.....that's it no afterlife. I live my life not believing in god and accepting that there may be nothing after this life but hoping that my energy will be used as one day i will be reincarnated into something else. As being a human i do believe that i would not become an ant or something like that, maybe another human or something higher who knows. Thats just my beliefs.

Plus if there was a heaven and i had to follow all teh rules of the bible i would assume that sinning and going to pennance is not an option. so your under strict control and if u **** up your gone? **** that "i'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints"

 

[ReaperX]

I must say i honestly feel bad for all the people that have been brain washed by religion, What happens when you die and there is no heaven. You lived your entire life in fear of being sent to hell then bam.....that's it no afterlife. I live my life not believing in god and accepting that there may be nothing after this life but hoping that my energy will be used as one day i will be reincarnated into something else. As being a human i do believe that i would not become an ant or something like that, maybe another human or something higher who knows. Thats just my beliefs.

Plus if there was a heaven and i had to follow all teh rules of the bible i would assume that sinning and going to pennance is not an option. so your under strict control and if u **** up your gone? **** that "i'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints"

i don't understand any of this.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

So then what is the purpose of being punished by going to hell if there is nothing you can do about it?

Well, even if there is nothing you can do about it, you would still have committed the same sins in your life; sins that must be atoned for.


Anyway, the main reason behind predestination is this: God is omnipotent, ruler over all, if belief was up to us, we would dictate God's actions, and that's not in his nature to be controlled. Therefore, predestination is the only option.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

man I go to sleep for a night and miss the whole thread. Has anyone taken a look at what i mentioned a few pages back about the councils of nicea and hippo regarding the formation of christian doctrine? It might shed a little light on a "divinely" inspired material.

also, well done fellas. very respectful tone and arguments here

I haven't checked those things out yet. I'll be sure I do today, though.

 

[AE14]

I haven't checked those things out yet. I'll be sure I do today, though.

excellent, it will spark some thought for you I am sure.

I will say that in reference to your predestination discussion, it seems abit illogical when you stop and think about it. Regardless of what you do, it is predetermined, so inb essence that could mean that Adolf Hitler could have been predetermined to heaven as long as he was apologetic. So silly imo

 

[TheCrownedOne]

Ahh, the everlasting Invalid Link Removed.

 

[Dadof2]

I must say i honestly feel bad for all the people that have been brain washed by religion, What happens when you die and there is no heaven. You lived your entire life in fear of being sent to hell then bam.....that's it no afterlife. I live my life not believing in god and accepting that there may be nothing after this life but hoping that my energy will be used as one day i will be reincarnated into something else. As being a human i do believe that i would not become an ant or something like that, maybe another human or something higher who knows. Thats just my beliefs.

Plus if there was a heaven and i had to follow all teh rules of the bible i would assume that sinning and going to pennance is not an option. so your under strict control and if u **** up your gone? **** that "i'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints"

Live in fear? Fear of what?

I don't fear God, I have no reason to. Perhaps this is not the case in other religions, but in mine there is no reason to fear God, because there is no reason for God to be angry with me.

Don't think I am picking on you, because this is not my intention, but this post is a great example of typical unlearned atheist thought towards Christianity. Most atheist have had some childhood experience in church with their folks, and they still have the same childlike understanding even as adults.

There are no rules to follow in the Bible, there is no reason for a Christian to fear God. You were right about one thing: These ideas do come from religion, and they were used to control people, but that does not mean that they are true.

 

[Dadof2]

the only thing I will say to this is look during the reign of Constantine at events such as the council of nicea (325 C.E.) and hippo (393 C.E.) for the formation of scripture, whih might make you second guess your thoughts. keep in mind that much of what was "accepted" as sripture was thrown out as apocrypha due to it not painting jesus in the correct light

The idea that Christian doctrine was formed at the Council of Nicea is a misguided one at best. The Christian church started with the Apostles and then was led by men(Church Fathers) who were their disciples. The church has a recorded history that stretches from the firt century up to the Council of Nicea. The church did not just one day have scriptures after centuries of not having any.

Besides the doctrine of the early Church up to now has not changed. Jesus is God incarnate who paid for the sins of the world. This is all one needs to know to make a decision for or against Christ.

 

[joeymutz]

Live in fear? Fear of what?

I don't fear God, I have no reason to. Perhaps this is not the case in other religions, but in mine there is no reason to fear God, because there is no reason for God to be angry with me.

Don't think I am picking on you, because this is not my intention, but this post is a great example of typical unlearned atheist thought towards Christianity. Most atheist have had some childhood experience in church with their folks, and they still have the same childlike understanding even as adults.

There are no rules to follow in the Bible, there is no reason for a Christian to fear God. You were right about one thing: These ideas do come from religion, and they were used to control people, but that does not mean that they are true.

i didn't mean that you fear god but some people(maybe not you) live in fear that if they do things that aren't 100% acceptable by the church that they will go to hell, so there for they live in fear there whole lives trying to be a saint, and not get sent to hell and they are missing out on everything else.

 

[Dadof2]

This is not true, but I can share my opinion why it's said so. When church and religion were created, the main goal was to have unlimited power and control over people and keeping people in fear is perfect way of doing so. Then you take the truth from the original scrips that came from God and mix it with lies that would benefit church and here's how bible was created.
How come bible doesn't teach how to communicate with God on your own? Well, because it doesn't benefit the church, people would become too independent and this is last thing church wanted...

The Bible does teach you to communicate to God on your own.

Also if you examine the Gospels, Jesus was not a fan of organized religion, if the church had made all of this up why would they make that so blaringly obvious?

 

[joeymutz]

i don't understand any of this.

what don't you understand?

I feel bad for people that are really really religious such a tbone because these people have been brain washed with bullshit from the bible.

The second part I wouldn't expect you to understand. No offense, I'm a little nuts and have have some crazy beliefs, they lean more towards Buddhism. Not sure if you know anything about Buddhism, which is a belief not a religion.

 

[AE14]

The idea that Christian doctrine was formed at the Council of Nicea is a misguided one at best. The Christian church started with the Apostles and then was led by men(Church Fathers) who were their disciples. The church has a recorded history that stretches from the firt century up to the Council of Nicea. The church did not just one day have scriptures after centuries of not having any.

Besides the doctrine of the early Church up to now has not changed. Jesus is God incarnate who paid for the sins of the world. This is all one needs to know to make a decision for or against Christ.

let me clarify what I was saying. At both nicea and hippo the formation of the doctrine was made, not the writing of it. the decision was to be made as to what would be included in the NT and what wouldnt. Amazingly, when you read the apocrypha, all those excluded share certain characteristics.

Please understand, I was not saying that they wrote it there, I understand about earlier history. Just want to clarify

 

[Dadof2]

i didn't mean that you fear god but some people(maybe not you) live in fear that if they do things that aren't 100% acceptable by the church that they will go to hell, so there for they live in fear there whole lives trying to be a saint, and not get sent to hell and they are missing out on everything else.

But that is just the thing. There is no thing that can or cannot send someone to hell, in Christian thought.

The Christian 101 doctrine is this. Every person is born spiritually dead, meaning when their body dies their soul is destined to die as well. This is the theology in Genesis, when Adam and Eve brought sin into the world they really brought death into the world. So no matter what I do in my life good or bad I am still spiritually dead, I cannot give myself life.

God told man that He would fix this by sending a savior and made a covenant with him(hence the beginning of Judaism). Christians believe that Jesus is that Savior, while Jews are still looking for the Savior(this is where Judaism and Christianity split).

Jesus' death and resurrection are the Christians promise for his own resurrection when he dies. When Jesus was crucified He made available the eternal life of God to anyone who would accept it. So the believer goes from being spiritually dead to alive in Christ. So instead of the spirit remaining dead upon physical death, the spirit of the believer goes to God.

That is Christianity 101, real Christianity, not the stuff taught by corrupt churches.

That is why there is no fear for a person who is trusting in what Jesus did for eternal life, because it is not about us, it is about what He did. A Christian who really understands this lives in freedom, not fear.

I am not trying to convert you, I am only trying to give you a better understanding of what the Bible actually teaches.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

excellent, it will spark some thought for you I am sure.

I will say that in reference to your predestination discussion, it seems abit illogical when you stop and think about it. Regardless of what you do, it is predetermined, so inb essence that could mean that Adolf Hitler could have been predetermined to heaven as long as he was apologetic. So silly imo

From looking at Hitler's actions, it seems that he wasn't at all living the life of a Christian. The predestination thing doesn't just have an impact on where one resides in the afterlife, it also says a lot about how that person lives and what he or she does in that life.

 

[Dadof2]

let me clarify what I was saying. At both nicea and hippo the formation of the doctrine was made, not the writing of it. the decision was to be made as to what would be included in the NT and what wouldnt. Amazingly, when you read the apocrypha, all those excluded share certain characteristics.

Please understand, I was not saying that they wrote it there, I understand about earlier history. Just want to clarify

I did misunderstand you a bit. Nine out of ten times when the Council of Nicea comes up in a thread like this, it is brought up in the context that the Bible was written by Constantine.

 

[Dadof2]

I am enjoying this thread fellas, good posting from both sides.

I have to go for now, but hopefully will be able to jump back in tonight.

 

[bigironkiller]

here is a scenario i ahve always taken issue with: you have two people one person doesnt believe in god, but taken for what is worth lives a good life and helps people whenever he can and tries not to do harm. the second guy is a murderer who sees pain in others as helping him. this second guy never thinks about god until his death bed, and before he dies accepts god as his savior, as fully as he can. with the religious people i have talked to the murderer goes to heaven because he finally accpeted god as his savior. but the non-believer would go to hell. this question is one of my top issues i always go to in discussions about god. what do you guys have to say about it???

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

here is a scenario i ahve always taken issue with: you have two people one person doesnt believe in god, but taken for what is worth lives a good life and helps people whenever he can and tries not to do harm. the second guy is a murderer who sees pain in others as helping him. this second guy never thinks about god until his death bed, and before he dies accepts god as his savior, as fully as he can. with the religious people i have talked to the murderer goes to heaven because he finally accpeted god as his savior. but the non-believer would go to hell. this question is one of my top issues i always go to in discussions about god. what do you guys have to say about it???

If it's a true conversion then yes the murderer would go to heaven. In God's eyes, upon acceptance of His existence and works through His Son, a person's sins are completely erased. It would be like the man had never murdered anyone, or sinned otherwise.

 

[AE14]

I did misunderstand you a bit. Nine out of ten times when the Council of Nicea comes up in a thread like this, it is brought up in the context that the Bible was written by Constantine.

no problem, I figured we had a miscommunication more or less.

also, nicea and hippo are interesting when looking at the formation of the NT as a book, kinda fishy imo

 

[AE14]

From looking at Hitler's actions, it seems that he wasn't at all living the life of a Christian. The predestination thing doesn't just have an impact on where one resides in the afterlife, it also says a lot about how that person lives and what he or she does in that life.

very true indeed, however predestination on its face value seems a tad interesting and peculiar.

 

[AE14]

If it's a true conversion then yes the murderer would go to heaven. In God's eyes, upon acceptance of His existence and works through His Son, a person's sins are completely erased. It would be like the man had never murdered anyone, or sinned otherwise.

doesn't that seem like an odd exception to rules of logic? So basically (using Hitler as our example) he could have accepted god at his death and all of a sudden poof entrance into heaven?

 

[bryan4980]

Well, even if there is nothing you can do about it, you would still have committed the same sins in your life; sins that must be atoned for.


Anyway, the main reason behind predestination is this: God is omnipotent, ruler over all, if belief was up to us, we would dictate God's actions, and that's not in his nature to be controlled. Therefore, predestination is the only option.

So let's say you are a Pagan, and you don't wrong anyone basically the only thing you are doing wrong is you have a different way of being religious. So by what you saying God has predestined this person to be a Pagan and therefore will go to hell to atone for the sins that God pre-destined this person for? Also what about in the many thousands of years before Christianity was established? Do all the cavemen go to hell forever?

 

[AE14]

So let's say you are a Pagan, and you don't wrong anyone basically the only thing you are doing wrong is you have a different way of being religious. So by what you saying God has predestined this person to be a Pagan and therefore will go to hell to atone for the sins that God pre-destined this person for? Also what about in the many thousands of years before Christianity was established? Do all the cavemen go to hell forever?

these are valid points. I always loved the other issue, what about civilizations since christianity that were not exposed to it i.e. Mesoamericans (prior to Spanish conquering) or even after conquering

 

[bryan4980]

I must say i honestly feel bad for all the people that have been brain washed by religion, What happens when you die and there is no heaven. You lived your entire life in fear of being sent to hell then bam.....that's it no afterlife. I live my life not believing in god and accepting that there may be nothing after this life but hoping that my energy will be used as one day i will be reincarnated into something else. As being a human i do believe that i would not become an ant or something like that, maybe another human or something higher who knows. Thats just my beliefs.

Plus if there was a heaven and i had to follow all teh rules of the bible i would assume that sinning and going to pennance is not an option. so your under strict control and if u **** up your gone? **** that "i'd rather laugh with the sinners then cry with the saints"

There are some beliefs that believe you live your life die and are given the option when you leave your body to remain as energy or to pick your next life based on the lesson you wish to have.

 

[joeymutz]

There are some beliefs that believe you live your life die and are given the option when you leave your body to remain as energy or to pick your next life based on the lesson you wish to have.

yes and pretty much that is what i believe. I can't imagine our energy as a human being used as something smaller, like i said in an earlier post. I think we gradually kept being reincarnated into something more sophisticated and now were humans. Some people believe they have past lives, it may be true they may still have memories from there past lives they stayed with there energy. But who knows? The universe reuses its self and we are part of the universe so we would be re used.

 

[Dadof2]

here is a scenario i ahve always taken issue with: you have two people one person doesnt believe in god, but taken for what is worth lives a good life and helps people whenever he can and tries not to do harm. the second guy is a murderer who sees pain in others as helping him. this second guy never thinks about god until his death bed, and before he dies accepts god as his savior, as fully as he can. with the religious people i have talked to the murderer goes to heaven because he finally accpeted god as his savior. but the non-believer would go to hell. this question is one of my top issues i always go to in discussions about god. what do you guys have to say about it???

Your scenario doesn't really make sense.

Your example of a man living life without even thinking of God until his deathbed is a bad one. First we have to assume that this guy lives in a culture where he has been exposed to the idea of the Christian God, since he accepts Jesus on his deathbed right?

So that means that the murderer has lived life constantly rejecting God, over and over and over again. His heart would obviously be hard towards God, as he has gone his whole life consistently wanting nothing to do with God.Why would he accept God on his deathbed? Fear of death is the only logical choice here, and "accepting" Jesus because of fear of death wouldn't be a true conversion in this scenario.

The only true conversion is one that is brought about by a repentant heart that understands how lost it is. Salvation is not obtained by all of a sudden believing that there is a god.


This also taps into the issue of whether or not some native on some island who has never heard of Jesus will go to hell or heaven. If the guy was never exposed to the gospel then he cannot be judged the same way as someone who has. His sins were paid for at the cross just like mine, he just doesn't know it.

 

[Dadof2]

So let's say you are a Pagan, and you don't wrong anyone basically the only thing you are doing wrong is you have a different way of being religious. So by what you saying God has predestined this person to be a Pagan and therefore will go to hell to atone for the sins that God pre-destined this person for? Also what about in the many thousands of years before Christianity was established? Do all the cavemen go to hell forever?

Again this is not about right or wrong. It is about being born under a certain spiritual condition. You and I were born into spiritual death, once we die physically we our spirits remain dead and that is all there is to it. Whereas if we accept the Life of Christ then we are born into his life (hence the term born again) and when we die physically our spirits live on with God.

As far as predestination, just because God knows whether or not a person will accept Him is not the same as making someone not accept Him. Either we have free will or we don't, and according to the Bible (starting in Genesis) we do. If God is omnipotent He knew before creation that I would accept His grace, is that the same as making me accept it?

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

doesn't that seem like an odd exception to rules of logic? So basically (using Hitler as our example) he could have accepted god at his death and all of a sudden poof entrance into heaven?

Lol, poof entrance to heaven.

If it was a true conversion, then sure. Dadof2 explains it pretty good on the page before this one though, imo.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

So let's say you are a Pagan, and you don't wrong anyone basically the only thing you are doing wrong is you have a different way of being religious. So by what you saying God has predestined this person to be a Pagan and therefore will go to hell to atone for the sins that God pre-destined this person for? Also what about in the many thousands of years before Christianity was established? Do all the cavemen go to hell forever?

1: heathen; a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

Well, maybe not so much that he or she has been predestined to be a pagan, per se, but that this person is simply predestined to have a heart hardened toward God. It depends on which definition of paganism you're referring to as to whether or not my answer is relevant.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

I really like this thread. It's just an wide-open conversation. Everyone sharing their beliefs, and without getting their feelings hurt/being rude. This is great. Hope it can continue!

 

[bryan4980]

Your scenario doesn't really make sense.

Your example of a man living life without even thinking of God until his deathbed is a bad one. First we have to assume that this guy lives in a culture where he has been exposed to the idea of the Christian God, since he accepts Jesus on his deathbed right?

So that means that the murderer has lived life constantly rejecting God, over and over and over again. His heart would obviously be hard towards God, as he has gone his whole life consistently wanting nothing to do with God.Why would he accept God on his deathbed? Fear of death is the only logical choice here, and "accepting" Jesus because of fear of death wouldn't be a true conversion in this scenario.

The only true conversion is one that is brought about by a repentant heart that understands how lost it is. Salvation is not obtained by all of a sudden believing that there is a god.


This also taps into the issue of whether or not some native on some island who has never heard of Jesus will go to hell or heaven. If the guy was never exposed to the gospel then he cannot be judged the same way as someone who has. His sins were paid for at the cross just like mine, he just doesn't know it.

What about the savages that lived and died before Jesus was put on the cross and before the bible. Do they burn in hell until Jesus died?

 

[bryan4980]

1: heathen; a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)
2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person

Well, maybe not so much that he or she has been predestined to be a pagan, per se, but that this person is simply predestined to have a heart hardened toward God. It depends on which definition of paganism you're referring to as to whether or not my answer is relevant.

Heathen's and Pagan's are very different. I do not know the exact differences but heathens will get upset if you call them a Pagan. Let's just replace Pagan with Wiccan. Wicca can be a monotheistic religion. So then the only real difference here would then be that the individual chooses to express their view of religion differently. So the question I have is Indviduality a sin? If so are we all to be mindless automaton's strictly following the same exact beliefs? Sounds like the perfect government.

 

[Dadof2]

What about the savages that lived and died before Jesus was put on the cross and before the bible. Do they burn in hell until Jesus died?

First off I am not sure that anyone burns in hell, much of the original language in the Bible is figurative when it is referring to sheol or hades i.e. the land of the dead. The Lake of Fire is not the same place as hell, and this place/event hasn't occurred yet.

It is my understanding that people who existed outside of the Old Covenant (Judaism), that started with Abraham ,were judged based on what they knew from natural revelation.

 

[Dadof2]

Heathen's and Pagan's are very different. I do not know the exact differences but heathens will get upset if you call them a Pagan. Let's just replace Pagan with Wiccan. Wicca can be a monotheistic religion. So then the only real difference here would then be that the individual chooses to express their view of religion differently. So the question I have is Indviduality a sin? If so are we all to be mindless automaton's strictly following the same exact beliefs? Sounds like the perfect government.

Again this shows a profound misunderstanding of Christianity. Belief or acknowledgement of the existence of Deity does not provide salvation. Therefore there is a huge difference between Wicca and Christianity.

 

[bryan4980]

Again this is not about right or wrong. It is about being born under a certain spiritual condition. You and I were born into spiritual death, once we die physically we our spirits remain dead and that is all there is to it. Whereas if we accept the Life of Christ then we are born into his life (hence the term born again) and when we die physically our spirits live on with God.

As far as predestination, just because God knows whether or not a person will accept Him is not the same as making someone not accept Him. Either we have free will or we don't, and according to the Bible (starting in Genesis) we do. If God is omnipotent He knew before creation that I would accept His grace, is that the same as making me accept it?

My understanding of predestination is God determines what will happen, what you are talking about sounds more like God just knows what everyones destiny is which makes more sense.
So as far as I am able to understand with predestination God is in fact determining your fate and is deciding who will go to hell and you will accept him.

 

[bryan4980]

Again this shows a profound misunderstanding of Christianity. Belief or acknowledgement of the existence of Deity does not provide salvation. Therefore there is a huge difference between Wicca and Christianity.

Well actually a great deal of what is in Christianity comes from Wicca and other religions as well.

How so does this show a profound misunderstanding? Is it because to be saved one would have to accept your God as the one and only?

 

[bryan4980]

First off I am not sure that anyone burns in hell, much of the original language in the Bible is figurative when it is referring to sheol or hades i.e. the land of the dead. The Lake of Fire is not the same place as hell, and this place/event hasn't occurred yet.

It is my understanding that people who existed outside of the Old Covenant (Judaism), that started with Abraham ,were judged based on what they knew from natural revelation.

So if they were good people then they were ok? Land of dead, lake or fire I don't think it matters what you call it it's still the place you go if you're not accepted in. So I don't think what it is called is all that relevant to the conversation.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Heathen's and Pagan's are very different. I do not know the exact differences but heathens will get upset if you call them a Pagan. Let's just replace Pagan with Wiccan. Wicca can be a monotheistic religion. So then the only real difference here would then be that the individual chooses to express their view of religion differently. So the question I have is Indviduality a sin? If so are we all to be mindless automaton's strictly following the same exact beliefs? Sounds like the perfect government.

Well, I simply copied and pasted those definitions from Merriam Webter's dictionary under Pagan.

Individuality, is not a sin, but if individuality means someone rejecting Christ, then the result of that individuality is an afterlife in hell.

As for the government thing, well, I just don't think that's a very good argument.

 

[Dadof2]

My understanding of predestination is God determines what will happen, what you are talking about sounds more like God just knows what everyones destiny is which makes more sense.
So as far as I am able to understand with predestination God is in fact determining your fate and is deciding who will go to hell and you will accept him.

So far I have restrained from posting specific Bible verses because it is usually not effective in an argument where one party does not believe in the validity of the Bible. But in this case I have to as this question does refer specifically to Bible doctrine.


"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:16)

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself." (John 12:32)

For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. (Romans 6:10)

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died; and He died for all, that they who live should no longer live for themselves, but for Him who died and rose again on their behalf. (2 Corinthians 5:15)

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. (1 Timothy 4:10)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, (Titus 2:11)

The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. (2 Peter 3:9)

For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, in order that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the spirit; (1 Peter 3:18)


Finally Jesus told his disciples to go out and tell the world about Him and salvation through Him. This is why all save one Apostle died professing a risen Christ. If salvation was already decided by God, and free will was not an issue then there would be no need to spread the Gospel to all men.

 

[bryan4980]

Again this is not about right or wrong. It is about being born under a certain spiritual condition. You and I were born into spiritual death, once we die physically we our spirits remain dead and that is all there is to it. Whereas if we accept the Life of Christ then we are born into his life (hence the term born again) and when we die physically our spirits live on with God.

So a person has basicly one chance to pick the correct religion? How do we know which is right which is wrong? They all claim to be right, so pick the wrong one and you're screwed.

 

[bryan4980]

Well, I simply copied and pasted those definitions from Merriam Webter's dictionary under Pagan.

That was just more of an FYI.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

That was just more of an FYI.

Got ya! :thumbsup:

 

[bryan4980]

Individuality, is not a sin, but if individuality means someone rejecting Christ, then the result of that individuality is an afterlife in hell.

My problem with this is to me it pretty much says do it our way or go to our made up punishment land.

Now don't get me wrong I am not saying that you are wrong for believing what you believe. My feeling on the whole thing is do what works for you.

 

[Dadof2]

Well actually a great deal of what is in Christianity comes from Wicca and other religions as well.

How so does this show a profound misunderstanding? Is it because to be saved one would have to accept your God as the one and only?

The misunderstanding is this. No one gains life by acknowledging the existence of the Christian God, or any other. Either the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth can provide spiritual life or it doesn't. Either you put your faith in that or you do not. Either this is true or false.

Is there any other option than falling down if you jump off a building? Is it unfair that if you don't believe in the law of gravity that you are still going to fall?

As far as your claim that Christianity was influenced by Wicca I don't know enough about Wicca to have an opinion of this. The same could also be said for Judaism and Christianity, and Judaism and Islam etc. Many different belief systems share certain elements of one another.

To be honest I hope that all people will live on to a wonderful afterlife. I just know what has been true in my life and that is why I believe as I do.

 

[bryan4980]

As for the government thing, well, I just don't think that's a very good argument.

How so?

I think it is the perfect form of government, you do what we say or go to hell for all of eternity. No one can disprove it, and who will want to chance it?

 

[bryan4980]

The misunderstanding is this. No one gains life by acknowledging the existence of the Christian God, or any other. Either the death and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth can provide spiritual life or it doesn't. Either you put your faith in that or you do not. Either this is true or false.

Is there any other option than falling down if you jump off a building? Is it unfair that if you don't believe in the law of gravity that you are still going to fall?

As far as your claim that Christianity was influenced by Wicca I don't know enough about Wicca to have an opinion of this. The same could also be said for Judaism and Christianity, and Judaism and Islam etc. Many different belief systems share certain elements of one another.

To be honest I hope that all people will live on to a wonderful afterlife. I just know what has been true in my life and that is why I believe as I do.

I don't equate it to a cliff but a set of doors as there are many religions how do we know which is right? Man is capable of lying the bible was written by man, the game of telephone comes to mind.