Differing Opinions on SARMs

FallenDorito

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Good afternoon all,

I really enjoy doing research on SARMs and more traditional forms of AAS especially since I plan on cycling in the future. I’m starting to plan my next cycle for fall of this year and have been debating on a SARMs cycle or testosterone cycle.

I have noticed on several different forums/websites and other places that opinions on SARMs very greatly and so do the personal experiences of the posters. I have experience with mk677 and really enjoyed the results. Does anyone have any experience with rad140, lgd4033 or yk11 and what your opinions are on them?
 

Dmzjne

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First cycle? Test Enanthate or Cypionate for 12 weeks. Start @ 250 mg/ week; and see how your body reacts to estrogenic side effects. If your body responds well; meaning you don't require an Aromitase Inhibitor. Proceed to 500 mg/ week.

Sarms would be a good addition; to an AAS cycle. However IMO they are best used for clinical application. And/ or between AAS cycles to maintain muscle/ strength already gained from AAS.

You would need an Aromitase Inhibitor, such as Arimidex should you decide to run Test. As estrogen tends to creep up on people, rather quickly. You will also need a SERM such as Clomid, Torem, or Nolva for post cycle. Make sure you have everything you need before starting.

However IMO the best two SARMS for gaining muscle/ strength without having wierdo side effects; are RAD 140 and YK-11 respectively
 

johnny412

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Good afternoon all,

I really enjoy doing research on SARMs and more traditional forms of AAS especially since I plan on cycling in the future. I’m starting to plan my next cycle for fall of this year and have been debating on a SARMs cycle or testosterone cycle.

I have noticed on several different forums/websites and other places that opinions on SARMs very greatly and so do the personal experiences of the posters. I have experience with mk677 and really enjoyed the results. Does anyone have any experience with rad140, lgd4033 or yk11 and what your opinions are on them?
LGD is awesome
 
Mathb33

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Sarms are trash. It’s not about opinions it’s about facts. It’s not 2015 anymore where we thought sarms weren’t as toxic. Sarms are about as toxic as actual steroids but don’t work nearly as good. That’s about the only thing you need to know
 

Dmzjne

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Sarms are trash. It’s not about opinions it’s about facts. It’s not 2015 anymore where we thought sarms weren’t as toxic. Sarms are about as toxic as actual steroids but don’t work nearly as good. That’s about the only thing you need to know
I have to agree . With the exception of RAD. As it currently is being studied in phase 2 clinical trials. They have used between 100 & 150 mg of RAD a day for months, with almost zero adverse side effects. This is about 3x what gym rats are using.

Also RAD is an antagonist at ER/ AR + breast tissue & the prostate (seminal vessel). I still agree that most sarms are worthless. But to say ALL of them are trash, I respectfully disagree.
 
allbrawn

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Short and easy answer.
Don’t do them.

I’ve done around 10 sarm cycles over the years. Mainly osta.
I think my rad was spiked with something else, my bench went from 315 to 405 in a couple weeks and the suppression was unreal and not worth it.

Don’t waste money on supps, especially sarms.....

This is coming from a guy that used to spend a few hundred bucks on supplements each month to now just taking caffeine and ksm66 haha.
 
allbrawn

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Wish an old member “SanMarino” was still around.
I’m curious what his thoughts are on sarms now after all the hype on “no side effects” is over.
 

Dmzjne

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Short and easy answer.
Don’t do them.

I’ve done around 10 sarm cycles over the years. Mainly osta.
I think my rad was spiked with something else, my bench went from 315 to 405 in a couple weeks and the suppression was unreal and not worth it.

Don’t waste money on supps, especially sarms.....

This is coming from a guy that used to spend a few hundred bucks on supplements each month to now just taking caffeine and ksm66 haha.
Interesting as I have had ran RAD a handful of times myself. With varying effects. I can say for certain it added to suppression, when running with test. However this was mostly running @ 30 mg a day. May I ask how long and what dosage you ran RAD?

I also agree money is always 100 percent better spent on more test/ quality food. With supplements I just stick with the basics. Multi Vitamins, protein, preworkout, and Nac/ Tudca

Test is better and safer than sarms.
^^^ This. Testosterone is the healthiest and safest of any anabolic androgenic steroid/ PH/ DS/ or SARM.
 
Hyde

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AAS work better. I would go with a mild test run as was mentioned above. Healthier and more effective, both by a wide margin, over SARMs. When you get that under your belt you can experiment with adding other oil or orals or SARMs, but you really want to do that in layers slowly over multiple cycles so you can see what does what, and how it hurts your bloodwork so you know what to focus on with your harm reduction tactics.

SARMs are neat, but they aren’t safer. Often less safe due to spiking even.
 

jim2509

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AAS work better. I would go with a mild test run as was mentioned above. Healthier and more effective, both by a wide margin, over SARMs. When you get that under your belt you can experiment with adding other oil or orals or SARMs, but you really want to do that in layers slowly over multiple cycles so you can see what does what, and how it hurts your bloodwork so you know what to focus on with your harm reduction tactics.

SARMs are neat, but they aren’t safer. Often less safe due to spiking even.
Do you think the 1/4 andros are better than Sarms for gains vs sides?
 
Hyde

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Do you think the 1/4 andros are better than Sarms for gains vs sides?
Having used both multiple times as well as lots of PH/DS and some AAS, I am of the opinion that oral Andros are generally cost inefficient. The only oral andro that really works is 1-DHEA, and the lethargy sides on that are TERRIBLE for me. I’m talking I was early 20s and had to take a nap after work and will myself to go train with my friends that I loved to lift with. For a few lbs of muscle that any methyl oral would exceed for 1/4 the cycle cost. You have to eat a lot of caps of andros to get marginal results.

SARMs, besides Ostarine, produce a bit better gains than oral Andros with similar side profiles that tend to also be dose dependent relative to the compound. Transdermal Andros reportedly work much better and are more cost effective & lower side because you get better absorption and effect even needing less mg taken, so they save money too. I would look at products like Icon One by Iconic Formulations or Gear Cream by Iron Mag Labs for all in one starter cycle options if you go the Andro route.

BUT, still the safest and cheapest option is bio-identical hormones like testosterone, or at least AAS with decades of human studies on them. They have given Anadrol to burn victims for long periods, even children. We don’t know anything about longterm Yk11 use.

The difference mainly lies in legality and availability. You can buy Icon One legally but testosterone is a scheduled compound in America without a script. But it sure works better, and often cheaper sold illegally. 300mg of test blows the doors off an Andro stack, or even many mild methyls, in final muscle gain. Places like the UK don’t have the legal restrictions the US does.
 

jim2509

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Having used both multiple times as well as lots of PH/DS and some AAS, I am of the opinion that oral Andros are generally cost inefficient. The only oral andro that really works is 1-DHEA, and the lethargy sides on that are TERRIBLE for me. I’m talking I was early 20s and had to take a nap after work and will myself to go train with my friends that I loved to lift with. For a few lbs of muscle that any methyl oral would exceed for 1/4 the cycle cost. You have to eat a lot of caps of andros to get marginal results.

SARMs, besides Ostarine, produce a bit better gains than oral Andros with similar side profiles that tend to also be dose dependent relative to the compound. Transdermal Andros reportedly work much better and are more cost effective & lower side because you get better absorption and effect even needing less mg taken, so they save money too. I would look at products like Icon One by Iconic Formulations or Gear Cream by Iron Mag Labs for all in one starter cycle options if you go the Andro route.

BUT, still the safest and cheapest option is bio-identical hormones like testosterone, or at least AAS with decades of human studies on them. They have given Anadrol to burn victims for long periods, even children. We don’t know anything about longterm Yk11 use.

The difference mainly lies in legality and availability. You can buy Icon One legally but testosterone is a scheduled compound in America without a script. But it sure works better, and often cheaper sold illegally. 300mg of test blows the doors off an Andro stack, or even many mild methyls, in final muscle gain. Places like the UK don’t have the legal restrictions the US does.
Yeah am in the UK and Im sat on a some left over Andro's including Icon One and also some Sarms as well. I could go to Brawn and purchase PH's but obviously sides would be more of an issue. The transdermal andro's do look a good option though especially for sides.
 
Hyde

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Use your Icon One up, get a feel for cycling with that, then find a reliable UGL over there and look into a proper test cycle, maybe with an oral at the end. I believe guys used medichex over there for their private bloodwork - you will want that before any cycle to make sure you are healthy internally so you aren’t playing with fire.
 

jim2509

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Use your Icon One up, get a feel for cycling with that, then find a reliable UGL over there and look into a proper test cycle, maybe with an oral at the end. I believe guys used medichex over there for their private bloodwork - you will want that before any cycle to make sure you are healthy internally so you aren’t playing with fire.
Yeah I use medichecks regularly they are great. I'm certainly not looking to going back to my M1-T days and the like. Just something mild but effective and I think using the Icon One is like you said a good choice. I previously stacked lgd/Rad with Dermacrine which was good but supression was a bit much especially being in my 40's so probably wont go there again.
 

FallenDorito

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Thanks for all the replies everyone!
I will go with the test cycle in the fall. What are the estrogenic side effects I should watch out for? Forgive me for all the noob questions I just want to be prepared.
 
BennyMagoo79

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Thanks for all the replies everyone!
I will go with the test cycle in the fall. What are the estrogenic side effects I should watch out for? Forgive me for all the noob questions I just want to be prepared.
Your body may convert some test into estrogen, resulting in bloating and puffy nipples. Also check blood pressure, as this can be exacerbated by estri sides and increased red blood cell count. Get bloodwork done before your cycle to give you a reference for recovery post cycle.
 

Dmzjne

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Thanks for all the replies everyone!
I will go with the test cycle in the fall. What are the estrogenic side effects I should watch out for? Forgive me for all the noob questions I just want to be prepared.
Nice. I recommend Test C for 12 weeks bro. High estrogen would have you bloating like a mofo (excessive water weight). High blood pressure, etc.
 

FallenDorito

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Not sure if I can ask this here but what size needle do you use? I don’t understand the gauge size
 
Hyde

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Not sure if I can ask this here but what size needle do you use? I don’t understand the gauge size
The higher the gauge number the smaller the needle diameter. An 18g is explicitly for drawing, and many will use a 21g to draw the oil as well as its still massive. There is no need to ever use a thicker needle than 25g to inject - that’s a great size to move the oil in reasonable time without being painful or causing undo scar tissue. I have huge glutes and over 20% bodyfat so I use 1.5” length 25g needles for my glutes (I bought the luer lock syringes with 18g pre-attached to draw then swap on my 25g before injecting). Many guys do fine with 1” for glutes.

For my delts, I use 25g 5/8” all the way down to 29g 1/2” insulin syringes from the pharmacy for my cruise test. It takes a while to draw test with the tiny 29g of an insulin syringe, but it’s worth it considering that’s a very small amount of oil I have to move and you can’t even tell where you did your shot after it’s such a tiny needle.

Generally speaking you want a bit longer & thicker needle for glutes & ventroglutes since they will take multiple cc of oil at once, and smaller & shorter needles for delts & quads (or anywhere else) since they will generally be 1ml/cc max per shot for most folks and have less bodyfat over them.
 
Chair47

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I know alot of people personally who run sarms. None of them have good physiques. I made superior gains off trt. My advise, trt. Then when youve maxed trt add mk677. When you've maxed those two use either rad 140 (neuroprotective, minimal sides relative to methylated orals) or s23(almost on par with tbol).

In case I didn't make it clear, test is king. Sarms are things to add to trt/ prevent muscle loss in a deficit.
 

FallenDorito

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I know alot of people personally who run sarms. None of them have good physiques. I made superior gains off trt. My advise, trt. Then when youve maxed trt add mk677. When you've maxed those two use either rad 140 (neuroprotective, minimal sides relative to methylated orals) or s23(almost on par with tbol).

In case I didn't make it clear, test is king. Sarms are things to add to trt/ prevent muscle loss in a deficit.
I don’t think I’m a candidate for try yet but I definelty see now that test is the way to go for my next cycle. I’m excited but need to do some more research and cut down more before I start. Thank you for your advice!
 

Dmzjne

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I know alot of people personally who run sarms. None of them have good physiques. I made superior gains off trt. My advise, trt. Then when youve maxed trt add mk677. When you've maxed those two use either rad 140 (neuroprotective, minimal sides relative to methylated orals) or s23(almost on par with tbol).

In case I didn't make it clear, test is king. Sarms are things to add to trt/ prevent muscle loss in a deficit.
I believe FallenDorrito had already taken my advice to 12 week's of Test. This is not the same as TRT. Did you even read the thread?

Also Rad 140 only has neuroprotective properties in rats. In theory, RAD could show promise for Alzheimer's. However. Because RAD is still undergoing phase 1 clinical trials, this is all just BROscience. How do we know that RAD would cross the blood brain barrier in humans?

Testosterone itself is proven to protect neurons in the Hippocampus. Several androgens can interact with AR activity in brain/ increase cognition. IMO Androsterone would be my recommendation.

And S23 is NOT on par with tbol. Mg for mg S23 is WAY stronger. This is on paper, and in real life. Please do more research before recommending S23. As this SARM is very harsh, and only should be utilized during an extreme cut. Even then Rad 140 can accomplish the same thing. Should FallenDorrito require more compounds to progress, he should be taking S4/ YK - 11
 
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Chair47

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Your going to tell me to "learn more about sarms" when you haven't even looked at your own s23 bloodwork 🤷. S23 toxicity is over hyped. As well as it's results.

How did s23 change your blood marker? Just curious.

Your critique of winstar rats being used to guage potential neurotoxicity, the same animal used to guage potential neurotoxicity of testosterone, nandrolone, stanazolol, oxandrolone is ridiculous.

Quit being a fake intellectual.
 

Dmzjne

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Your going to tell me to "learn more about sarms" when you haven't even looked at your own s23 bloodwork 🤷. S23 toxicity is over hyped. As well as it's results.

How did s23 change your blood marker? Just curious.

Your critique of winstar rats being used to guage potential neurotoxicity, the same animal used to guage potential neurotoxicity of testosterone, nandrolone, stanazolol, oxandrolone is ridiculous.

Quit being a fake intellectual.

Lol. DO NOT downplay my intelligence.

Also. I said S23 was HARSH. I never used the word TOXIC numb nuts. And I don't need bloodwork; to indicate complete shutdown/ and a severely skewed lipid profile.

ALSO. The studies done on Test, Deca, Winstrol, Anavar have been performed on HUMANS. They may have ALSO been performed on primates, horses, and rats as well. But DO NOT correct me, when you have posted NO links to substantiate your dumb ass recommendation.

There have been ZERO human studies done on S23.

I have most likely been cycling/ lifting since before you graduated high school. I have tried almost every anabolic androgenic compound that exists, with the exception of methyl-tren. I'm also working on bringing my TOTAL up to 1350 lb @ bodyweight of 210 lb. What are your stats?? Who the f**k are you 😆
 
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Chair47

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You linked to s23, when we where talking about rad140 on the brain. To where you said radius health's assessment was BS because it wasn't done on humans.

Neurodegenerative studies on humans is considered unethical, this we are lacking human data, in regards to aas. NO studies to my knowledge exists. Supposedly there is data on nandrolone, but I have yet to find it. Plz prove me wrong. Srsly I would love to read. However the only head to head comparisons have been in winstar rats. All aas where toxic at all doses except for testosterone. Rad 140 could be number 2, who knows? And that is why I will recommend it.

As for s23. You are basically saying s23 is too dangerous, but yk11 isn't. That litterally makes no sense. Yk11, king of joint tears, featuring a 17aa methylation is somehow safer then s23. What's the halflife of yk11? Nobody knows. At least we know basic info like half-lives, binding affinity ect with s23.
 
BennyMagoo79

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Lol. DO NOT downplay my intelligence.

Also. I said S23 was HARSH. I never used the word TOXIC numb nuts. And I don't need bloodwork; to indicate complete shutdown/ and a severely skewed lipid profile.

ALSO. The studies done on Test, Deca, Winstrol, Anavar have been performed on HUMANS. They may have ALSO been performed on primates, horses, and rats as well. But DO NOT correct me, when you have posted NO links to substantiate your dumb ass recommendation.

There have been ZERO human studies done on S23.

I have most likely been cycling/ lifting since before you graduated high school. I have tried almost every anabolic androgenic compound that exists, with the exception of methyl-tren. I'm also working on bringing my TOTAL up to 1350 lb @ bodyweight of 210 lb. What are your stats?? Who the f**k are you 😆
How can you tell S23 is ruining your lipid profile without bloodwork?
 

Dmzjne

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You linked to s23, when we where talking about rad140 on the brain. To where you said radius health's assessment was BS because it wasn't done on humans.

Neurodegenerative studies on humans is considered unethical, this we are lacking human data, in regards to aas. NO studies to my knowledge exists. Supposedly there is data on nandrolone, but I have yet to find it. Plz prove me wrong. Srsly I would love to read. However the only head to head comparisons have been in winstar rats. All aas where toxic at all doses except for testosterone. Rad 140 could be number 2, who knows? And that is why I will recommend it.

As for s23. You are basically saying s23 is too dangerous, but yk11 isn't. That litterally makes no sense. Yk11, king of joint tears, featuring a 17aa methylation is somehow safer then s23. What's the halflife of yk11? Nobody knows. At least we know basic info like half-lives, binding affinity ect with s23.
1) I refuse to waste my time going back and worth with you
2) The albino rats used in a majority of AAS studies are called *Wistar* rats, not *Winstar*
3) Quit trying to be a fake intellectual
 

Dmzjne

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How can you tell S23 is ruining your lipid profile without bloodwork?
To the exact extent; which S23 skewed my lipids is not relevant. I can tell you that @ the effective dose of 50 to 60 mg, S23 skewed lipids similarly to 20 mg of Superdrol.

Now @ the recommended dose of S23; around 20 to 30 mgs? I did not experience such a drastic change in my lipid profile. But IME at the effective dose? I absolutely experienced extreme shutdown, sperm count death, and a skewed lipid profile. S23 is trash
 
BennyMagoo79

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To the exact extent; which S23 skewed my lipids is not relevant. I can tell you that @ the effective dose of 50 to 60 mg, S23 skewed lipids similarly to 20 mg of Superdrol.

Now @ the recommended dose of S23; around 20 to 30 mgs? I did not experience such a drastic change in my lipid profile. But IME at the effective dose? I absolutely experienced extreme shutdown, sperm count death, and a skewed lipid profile. S23 is trash
I've used s23 a couple of times, from a lab that offers HPLC batch certificates so one can be reasonably sure of its purity - we have funny laws in Australia regarding sarms, basically it's only illegal to import them, but they can be sold legally for research purposes (until they are scheduled) as long as the vendor operates a QMS to ensure the product is sold within fair trading guidelines.

25mg with DHEA base for me yields noticeable increases in strength and vascularity, with mild increase in mass. It also shut me down pretty hard pretty fast, and after 8 weeks nuts were sore and small. Fast recovery though, compared with trest.

I ran it with epiandro on another cycle for 8 wks and got bloodwork mid and post cycle, surprised to find mild elevation of ALT (AST in range), significant elevation of RBC, and elevation of both LDL and HDL. Pretty sure Creatinine was quite high from memory, but it's up and down with me anyway (I get regular bloodwork, 2-3 times per yr). Again, recovery was quick and easy - nuts blew up so fast it ached.

Both cycles I noticed my urine turned brown, energy levels shot up, diminished appetite, increase strength, increase libido at first, then libido disappeared.
 
PoSiTiVeFLoW

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Hey OP - @FallenDorito

Just recently returned to this board.. On my first 3-4 years or so, ran a lot of different cycles (too many, too fast after I got addicted about 1.5-2 years in).

Anyway. back now, been off everything for 2+years, so going to be selective + careful with experience now. Reading through wow, I got lucky or chose well with SARMS being LGD-4033 (like a wetter S-drol, but not as clean), RAD-140 (no estrogen test replacement, low sides, pretty awesome strength + cuts), and MK-677 which isn't really a SARM but oral GH secretagogue. The rest of SARMS could take a hike as others noted.

Even YK11 I dabbled with and it felt like a strong methyl-PH, but I didn't continue it past 2 weeks.. as I was getting out of my self Guinea pig phase in 2018. Yk11 seems OK so far, but all risky business with these unproven compounds. Some maybe useful in the end, but so many good proven steroids and PH to use first... but wow glad I dodged S23 and some the other crazier ones folks tried recently.

@Hyde is generally spot on, I would add about the Andros. Old oral andros, no delivery tech are expensive and use less. totally opposite with very effective transdermal andros (1-DHEA) and (4-DHEA) but also liposomal/cyclosomal oral andros also work like a charm. I use both together, good gains, low sides. Iconic Formulations 1/4 Andros are my favorite post shower ritual. Also, I've taken plenty of Test E and Test C, in the past being, but off TRT now for awhlie - can say transdermal 4-andro from Iconic Formulations or cyclosomal/liposomal oral 4-andro delivery works perfect for a "test base".

And @Mathb33 is also pretty much right, when it's all going to be banned largely might as well go with the proven steroids', versus the unproven SARMs... Many great classic steriods, pro-hormones to choose from.

Sans one... Tren Ace, that **** is the devil. You can do an S-drol, DMZ, or even a M1A cycle and get same, better results than Tren Ace and you won't have gone psychotic or given yourself rebound gyno.

Just my two cents.
 
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Dmzjne

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Hey OP - @FallenDorito

Just recently returned to this board.. On my first 3-4 years or so, ran a lot of different cycles (too many, too fast after I got addicted about 1.5-2 years in).

Anyway. back now, been off everything for 2+years, so going to be selective + careful with experience now. Reading through wow, I got lucky or chose well with SARMS being LGD-4033 (like a wetter S-drol, but not as clean), RAD-140 (no estrogen test replacement, low sides, pretty awesome strength + cuts), and MK-677 which isn't really a SARM but oral GH secretagogue. The rest of SARMS could take a hike as others noted.

Even YK11 I dabbled with and it felt like a strong methyl-PH, but I didn't continue it past 2 weeks.. as I was getting out of my self Guinea pig phase in 2018. Yk11 seems OK so far, but all risky business with these unproven compounds. Some maybe useful in the end, but so many good proven steroids and PH to use first... but wow glad I dodged S23 and some the other crazier ones folks tried recently.

@Hyde is generally spot on, I would add about the Andros. Old oral andros, no delivery tech are expensive and use less. totally opposite with very effective transdermal andros (1-DHEA) and (4-DHEA) but also liposomal/cyclosomal oral andros also work like a charm. I use both together, good gains, low sides. Iconic Formulations 1/4 Andros are my favorite post shower ritual. Also, I've taken plenty of Test E and Test C, in the past being, but off TRT now for awhlie - can say transdermal 4-andro from Iconic Formulations or cyclosomal/liposomal oral 4-andro delivery works perfect for a "test base".

And @Mathb33 is also pretty much right, when it's all going to be banned largely might as well go with the proven steroids', versus the unproven SARMs... Many great classic steriods, pro-hormones to choose from.

Sans one... Tren Ace, that **** is the devil. You can do an S-drol, DMZ, or even a M1A cycle and get same, better results than Tren Ace and you won't have gone psychotic or given yourself rebound gyno.

Just my two cents.
Agreed bro excellent advice.

When I first started it was all about keeping it simple. Test and an Androgen. Then like Hyde said. Find out what works for you in layers. As opposed to someone taking multiple compounds, and expecting " bigger" gains. It just doesn't work like that. Look at guys like Lilliebridge, Stanimal, Larry Wheels. They all have the same mindset. Test (ALOT) and Anadrol.
 

Dmzjne

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Just for clarity.

Rad 140/ Testolone is STILL currently under stage 1 clinical trails. RAD has only been discovered recently. Ten years ago

It's currently being investigated for muscle wasting and osteoporosis. RAD selectively targeting AR in the skeletal tissue, increasing bone density. Although any SARM would target AR in the bone. I think the major difference is the binding affinity, and what other sides effects take place

For example. S23 can bind just as strong to AR in skeletal tissue/ muscle tissue/ and prostate. However it has NO clinical effect, except for decreasing the size of the prostate
 
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